posted May 16, 2012 11:42 AM            

There have been times when I felt compelled, driven, magnetized to a certain destiny. Accordingly I have made certain decisions that didn't rationally make sense to the people who know me...or even to myself, as I look back later or compared it to what I was doing beforehand. There are a few remarkable decisions I have made that don't seem to fit the pattern of my personality, but they made perfect sense at the time.

I've mentioned here how Pluto was transiting conjunct my Venus and my husband's Saturn when we got together and immediately got engaged.

The whole entire incident made almost no sense to anyone, except to my husband and I, for whom it was like...no other decision seemed possible.

Have you ever felt compelled to do something that doesn't make sense, only to go back and look at the transits and think, "Oh so that's why?"

Ever feel like something larger is just driving you? Maybe this is God, maybe it's the voice in your head, your instincts all geared to do certain things...at any rate, what you have is a predetermined response to a situation and the feeling that you COULD NOT choose differently.

So do you really have "free will"?

posted May 16, 2012 05:22 PM            

50% free will, 50% our own actions/reactions. It's a mix of both, to me. We don't have complete power or control over everything that happens to us, but we do have some.

posted May 27, 2012 03:11 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
The question is who is doing the nudging?

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posted May 27, 2012 04:11 PM            

guides with God...

with all the Masters

the Truth of this
Existence, which has been hidden
there truly is much more
to us,
than meets the eye..

for when you can SEE
Forever on a Clear Day..

you will be amazed
with you!

Love and Magic!

posted May 27, 2012 05:07 PM            

for each individual
has their own journey. ...

posted May 28, 2012 10:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
The debate is on as to the nudging. We would all perceive it differently.

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I feel that the universe has its own order and we have our own order. Our natal chart reflects something fundamental about our nature that is affected by planetary movements. Our hearts beat involuntarily but enlightened individuals can modulate that.

So too with the universe controlling us: the planets steer us but more enlightened individuals perceive these outside pressures and can make sense of them...therefore they are liberated from what would otherwise be unconscious impulses.

In other words, I suppose that the more aware a person is, the greater their free will. However, if the ultimate state of being is resonate "in harmony with the spheres" then the more aware a person is, the more constrained they are to only do one thing: resonate with the spheres.

posted May 29, 2012 09:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
No one is completely free, so free-will always comes with conditions and limitations.

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I agree with this and what you wrote above. It leads to the question, what is freedom? I think that to the extent that you are AWARE, you are free.

It reminds me of how the Puritans divided actions into two categories, sin and righteousness. To them, freedom (to sin) was actually bondage (to sin.) Other spiritual traditions mirror this concept, teaching that what you think is "freedom" is actually unconscious bumbling about. And what you think is restraint, like certain yoga positions, is ironically the way to soul liberation.

So you can be in jail but freely roving the universe. Or roving the universe but tragically imprisoned in your mind.

Either way, I'm guessing that the natal chart shows the manner in which you struggle for awareness...if you become enlightened, it's the ego you transcend. And that's where the freedom is.

Other than that, what we regard as free-will may actually be more like how a set of habits and conditioned responses plays out under varying conditions.

But I guess it all boils down to one's subjective interpretation of the phrase "free will."

posted May 30, 2012 11:27 PM            

All events are subject to their conditions. When a dolphin jumps out of the ocean, it doesn't then automatically suffer and die in the middle of a desert. This is because the ocean is one of the several conditions making up that event, and a desert is not. If you desire to communicate a message, that communication is subject to the languages, expressions, mannerisms, emotions, etc... available to you in that moment. It could be said that those conditions "Rule" or "Command" your ability to communicate, but free will offers you the ability to navigate those conditions and select those which feel most suitable to your tastes.

Astrology simply defines the emotional, mental, physical, and causal conditions which existed at our moment of birth; The emotional, mental, physical, and causal conditions which exist in the present; And the trajectory of those emotional, mental, physical, and causal conditions which may exist in the future. How we navigate those conditions is completely up to our free will. This is why you can compare two people, born in almost the same place, at the same time, and their personalities can be vastly different. They are essentially different perspectives of that moment, and are free to navigate the conditions of their life in completely different ways.

I believe free will is 100% and astrology is a group of forces like gravity or electromagnetism, through which our wills can navigate.

posted May 31, 2012 08:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:

If you desire to communicate a message, that communication is subject to the languages, expressions, mannerisms, emotions, etc... available to you in that moment. It could be said that those conditions "Rule" or "Command" your ability to communicate, but free will offers you the ability to navigate those conditions and select those which feel most suitable to your tastes.

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But aren't your tastes also affected by your astrological make up? I feel that mine definitely are.

quote:

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Astrology simply defines the emotional, mental, physical, and causal conditions which existed at our moment of birth; The emotional, mental, physical, and causal conditions which exist in the present; And the trajectory of those emotional, mental, physical, and causal conditions which may exist in the future. How we navigate those conditions is completely up to our free will.

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I see the causal conditions impinging on or at least defining the quality of our free will. If free will is "what I want to do in this moment" then usually that desire is strongly affected by the astrological factors that culminated in our present personality, and the same factors affecting what we want the outcome to be.

Is my will "free" even if it's predictably geared toward doing one thing over another, given my birthday and the attributes associated with it?

quote:

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This is why you can compare two people, born in almost the same place, at the same time, and their personalities can be vastly different. They are essentially different perspectives of that moment, and are free to navigate the conditions of their life in completely different ways.

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The personalities would not be so vastly different, in my line of thinking. I would expect a lot of similarities, and I might even be able to pick the two matching birth time/place people out of a crowd.

But there WOULD be differences. And it's interesting to think of where those differences come from...just upbringing and genetics or still something more? The elusive soul and this whole free will thing we are trying to pinpoint? Maybe.

Well, you've given me more to think about, and I thank you for weighing in.

posted June 01, 2012 01:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
But aren't your tastes also affected by your astrological make up? I feel that mine definitely are.

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This gets complex hehe. Lets pull astrology out of the equation and discuss some forces which are equally influential. Genetics, Upbringing, and Environment for example. We can look in a mirror or spend an hour exercising and see the effects of genetics. We can run into a situation which causes us to react in a habitual way and see our upbringing played out. We can come home from a stressful day and relax in the bath tub to see how environment influences our experiences. Though we are stuck with these three forces in our life, we still find a way to express free will.

In the case of astrology, we can certainly feel its influence when we pay attention. The energies of astrology are not concrete energies however, they build into complex dynamics when mixed or aspected. Two people with a strong Leonine influence may naturally feel comfortable acting a specific way, but at any time either can choose to not act that way. A Sag can learn to pay attention to details and a Virgo can learn to trust in the bigger picture, it depends on how conscious or unconscious we are of our actions and habits. Just like a person who was born into Cancerian energy grows familiar with Cancerian desires, a person born and raised in New Jersey grows up to speak with a New Jersey accent. They personally don't hear their accent since it has been around them since birth, but if challenged they could learn to speak with another accent, they could even learn other languages.

Astrology works similarly in my experiences. Though we grow to interact with the world based on our first impression of the world (natal chart), and feel natural with the world we build on top of that impression; we are free to recognize the fluidity of "self" as it wears the astrological personality. Looking up at the sky and observing that the Moon is in Aries is the same as poking your head out of your window to observe that the day is cold. You are 100% free to choose to wear a jacket or not, stay in or run naked through the streets, etc... Regardless of what you choose, you will still be effected by the cold, but the cold does not force you like a mindless zombie to act a certain way.

Is my will "free" even if it's predictably geared toward doing one thing over another, given my birthday and the attributes associated with it?

I see will as just as free from astrological forces as it is from the country in which I was born or the household in which I was raised. My mother is addicted to love relationships, so are both my sisters, I am not because I have worked hard to not be (which can be difficult for someone with my chart, but which is also characteristic of someone with my chart lol). Had I not been observant of my actions and the environment in which I was raised, I would probably be addicted to relationships too. If astrology didn't "set a stage", free will would have nothing to make decisions about.

But there WOULD be differences. And it's interesting to think of where those differences come from...just upbringing and genetics or still something more? The elusive soul and this whole free will thing we are trying to pinpoint? Maybe.

I think the above quote actually sums it up. The "rules" of nature are squishy and subject to each individual's perception. Thanks for the fun thread, I love when my brain is challenged to look at things and pick them apart.

posted June 01, 2012 01:54 PM            

I think I have been confusing freedom and free will. Free will is what you have even after your cards have been dealt so to speak, and you can either use your powers of creativity and intention to evolve...or not. This is true whether you are born in a wheelchair or with inborn potential for athletics; whether you're a Cancer or Capricorn.

Free will is how we try and make the climb from our south node to the north node, how we learn to become present in the moment, how we learn to avail ourselves of life.

Is it also how we rot away through inertia, though? I suppose the reality is that free will is not an absolute, but more like something you can have more or less of, depending on how you exercise it. It can atrophy if you live blindly and merely by reacting to stimuli. It can flourish if you cultivate awareness.

So you can have all different kinds of people, all with different natal charts, all exerting themselves, and the fact that they exert themselves differently according to their nature doesn't change the fact that their striving all goes by the same name: free will.

Something like that!

Fun talking with you too, I love kicking around ideas.

PS And I DO have a New Jersey accent!

posted June 01, 2012 09:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
^ Great read, thank you.

I think I have been confusing freedom and free will. Free will is what you have even after your cards have been dealt so to speak, and you can either use your powers of creativity and intention to evolve...or not. This is true whether you are born in a wheelchair or with inborn potential for athletics; whether you're a Cancer or Capricorn.

Free will is how we try and make the climb from our south node to the north node, how we learn to become present in the moment, how we learn to avail ourselves of life.

Is it also how we rot away through inertia, though? I suppose the reality is that free will is not an absolute, but more like something you can have more or less of, depending on how you exercise it. It can atrophy if you live blindly and merely by reacting to stimuli. It can flourish if you cultivate awareness.

So you can have all different kinds of people, all with different natal charts, all exerting themselves, and the fact that they exert themselves differently according to their nature doesn't change the fact that their striving all goes by the same name: free will.

Something like that!

Fun talking with you too, I love kicking around ideas.

PS And I DO have a New Jersey accent!

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Beautifully stated. I think the choice toward atrophy is part of free will too, mostly because a stagnant soul is repeatedly challenged by life, but chooses to avoid those challenges (though there may be an unconscious quality to that habit; see "Samsara"). Giving into Inertia is the fish which swims with the stream, in the Piscean duality.

posted June 02, 2012 10:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Beautifully stated. I think the choice toward atrophy is part of free will too, mostly because a stagnant soul is repeatedly challenged by life, but chooses to avoid those challenges (though there may be an unconscious quality to that habit; see "Samsara"). Giving into Inertia is the fish which swims with the stream, in the Piscean duality.

I had an odd feeling you may have a Jersey accent. LOL

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Namaste Xiiro,

Are you psychic or do I just give myself away? "You can take the girl out of New Jersey, but you can't take New Jersey out of the girl!"

Well, I've given it some more thought and realized the best I can do is articulate my confusion now.

This is really over my head. I don't know where the semantics end and the philosophy of life begins, or if they are intertwined (as in "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word is God").

It's believable to me that everything is predestined. It's equally believable to me that free will is synonymous with soul itself: how you manifest reality as a co-creator with the Creator. Or maybe it's half and half like Platero said. Something like yin and yang.

As for samsara, I wasn't familiar with the term, so I looked it up on wikipedia. That was surprising...now I am baffled that a religion as "barebones" as Buddhism has so much complexity to it.

Based on the wikipedia page...granted, not the most erudite text...I have difficulty with the technicalities of samsara (and any other religious concepts that seem to me to be putting too fine a point on abstractions.) What I'd love to do is experience whatever they have experienced that led them to these conclusions about the cycle of life and the conditions for "promotion through the ranks," if you will.

Experience is not transferable....but I consider myself spiritually adventuresome if nothing else. And for some things I think faith can only be gained through experience.

Maybe in a few years I will have more answers. Hopefully WITHOUT reincarnating, though.

At the risk of steering this thread way off track, may I ask your opinion of samsara? Are you Buddhist?

posted June 02, 2012 10:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Like the Jersey Shore people?

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