posted September 21, 2012 02:07 AM            

I believe I did see a thread on here in regards to this movie that Im about to use as a jump starting point. Id imagine Lexx posted it, very much a theory she herself was a fan of if I'm not mistaken -nods-

I strongly recommend you check this movie out, while I certainly do not condone piracy I'm sure if one was so inclined you could stream it handy enough though lol...

[The Man From Earth]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_from_Earth

He begins his story under the guise of a possible science-fiction story, but he eventually stops speaking in hypotheticals and begins answering questions from a first-person perspective. His colleagues refuse to believe his story. John continues his tale, stating that he was once a Sumerian for 2000 years, then a Babylonian under Hammurabi, then a disciple of Gautama Buddha. He claims to have known Christopher Columbus, Van Gogh (from which he apparently owns a painting as a gift from the artist himself), and other famous historical figures.

During the course of the conversation, John's colleagues question his story according to their specialties. For instance, Harry, the biologist, discusses the possibility of a human living for so long. Art, the archaeologist, questions John about events in prehistory; he exclaims that John's answers, though correct, could have come from any textbook, to which John points out the nature of knowledge, as he can only put his memories together with modern science after he learnt the new ideas with the rest of humanity.

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I do not wish to spoil the movie and climactic revelations therein for anyone, so I suggest if you haven't seen it, watch it and come back, because I am going to ruin the ending for you if you keep reading lol...

The discussion turns to the topic of religion. John mentions that he is not a follower of a particular religion; though he does not necessarily believe in an omnipotent God, he does not discount the possibility of such a being's existence. John then reluctantly reveals that in trying to bring Buddha's teachings to the west, he became the inspiration for the Jesus story and "the one called Jesus". After this shocking revelation, emotions in the room run high. Edith begins crying, and Gruber sternly demands that John end his tale and give closure by admitting it was all a hoax, threatening him with the possibility of locking him up for observation. John apologizes to everyone and tells them that it was all just a story.

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He runs through the whole Jesus connection and it becomes the movies focal point there after for a good 1/3 of it. The teachings in Galilee, being put to death, the crucifixion, and how he survived it using mediation techniques to feign death and eventually escape to India.

Its explained very well and my jaw fraking dropped when I saw how logical his Jesus argument measured up with my own understandings.

How this dovetails with my own inklings is that the man, possible even men used as the inspiration the for Christ/Jesus story, may very well have been highly learned eastern philosophy adepts whom traveled the various Roman Trade, & Silk Trade routes [Im anything but the first person to suggest this either, the theory has probably been floating around for 2000 years lol]. They stretch all the way from western Europe, through Egypt, into Judea, up to India and all the over to Han Dynasty China and in a more or less circular route during the time of "Christ".

[Silk Road & Roman Trade Routes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road

Extending 4,000 miles (6,500 km), the Silk Road gets its name from the lucrative Chinese silk trade along it, which began during the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD). The central Asian sections of the trade routes were expanded around 114 BC by the Han dynasty,[1][not in citation given] largely through the missions and explorations of Zhang Qian,[2] but earlier trade routes across the continents already existed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Radhanites.png

http://www.chinatouristmaps.com/china-maps/route-of-silk-road.html

[Roman Empire Maps]

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/roman_empire.html

Rome loved their fraking roads!

[Maps of Israel Time of Christ]

http://www.errantskeptics.org/TyreSidonMaps.htm

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/first-century-roads-israel.jpg

[I'm trying to put together the best maps of the era as regards all the trade routes, and paths through Judea. While I was writing this little essay I had several thousand windows open and I'm sure Ive lost a few maps betwixt, please add more, or tell me if the maps I'm using are not accurate]

http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Judea, which was an important shipping center for trade between India and the West and the military gateway to invade Egypt via land. Both land and sea trade routes had run through Jerusalem for centuries. Overland routes extending to Persia and western India were especially active after Alexander's invasion of western India 360 years earlier; [before the time of Christ]

Ever wonder about the so called lost years? Lost my ass, the man was off making his fortune in far away lands lol [No I cant prove that]. Anyhow it is not and irrational notion that a man from deeply Hellenized Galilee at the time of Jesus, decided to be a merchant world/traveler in his 20's [Ever go back packing in college?] especially if he was already a somewhat naturally spiritual intuitive individual [That does not mean almighty son of God our lord and savior]. With quiet disdain for Judaism and Roman oppression at the time, it wouldn't be hard to understand him just up and leaving his probably large family of siblings and setting off on the Silk Roads/Trade Routes - Going east or west, it didn't matter.

At first he wouldn't even needed merchandise as he could have worked as an interpreter for the Caravans all along the way if he choose to, or perhaps in any number other possibilities he could have acquired enough money to start trading and worked from there, remember this guy is one smart industrious ******* lol...

Ok, so that's working from the supposition that the Jesus character is indeed from Galilee and then later in life returns to such, but thats NOT EVEN getting into the unbelievable amount of people who were already traveling in the Caravans who may have had the exact same mind set and where from all over Europe and Asia!

[The spread of Eastern Philosophy on the trade routes]
http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Historical accounts aside, many textual analyses indicate striking similarities between what was said by Jesus and by Buddha and between the prophetic legend of Jesus and ancient Buddhist texts. The conclusion is that, although not identifying himself as a Buddhist for good reasons, Jesus spoke like a Buddhist. The similarities are so striking that, even if no historical evidence existed, we can suspect that Jesus studied Buddhist teachings and that the prophecy and legend of Jesus was derived from Buddhist stories.

After Alexander's eastern conquests, the great India ruler Ashoka, according to Will Durant's account, "sent Buddhist missionaries to all parts of India and Ceylon, even to Syria, Egypt and Greece."That remarkable missionary movement, beginning in 300 BCE, sent forth a succession of devoted men who spent their lives in spreading the faith of the Buddha over all parts of Asia." (2) Philo noted the presence of Buddhists in Alexandria, Egypt. (3)

My own personal subjective thought process is that the true teachings of Jesus/Yeshua/Issa, whoever was the progenitor of the Gospel of Thomas [But I'll get to that later]. Was healthy mix of Taoism (modernly: Daoism) , Buddhism and sure while I'm at it he was probably the first known Discordian hehe..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

Basically a Zen enlightened adept, nothing to do with the Judaic messiah situation, I'm talking about the man, not what I consider the Myth [Ill say something about the Mythic aspect later].

Moving backwards for a moment, putting the Man from Earth [which I hope you have watch btw] hypothesis back into play.

It is really not a leap in logic, or any kind of faith contemplation:

1: Our Galilee Native returning.
2: Various men from the Caravans passing through

Teaching the hapless Judaic sideliner's a thing or two from the eastern faiths, Id imagine it would have been mesmerizing to their oppressed Levitical minds, in conjunction with the hammers of Rome coming down around them lol.

So the movie in relation to Jesus finishes up with him escaping to India after feigning death [I know I seen threads about this on here from Lexx/fayte.m, anyone got the bumps handy?] Which is not an irrational notion, certainly not anymore of a leap in logic to suggest he was dead for 3 days and was risen again...

That brings one towards the Gospel of Thomas which may have possibly been scribed in India after the Crucifixion. (Yet you don't even have to have a Crucifixion to bring one of the "Jesus" men, or singular man back out of Judea, he could easily just be passing through on a trade run) - The Gospel of Thomas teachings are considered wrank heresy by our beloved Catholicism. Its very much in the spirit of the mystery teachings of the east with an Aesop's Fables twist!

I fraking love it!

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhsearch.html

Damnit, the Christ Myth aspect in relation the Christian-Judaisms is so huge in scope that there is no way I could do it justice here in its varying aspects, everything from the Flavian conspiracy, the Astro-Theology aspect. The varying roman councils that helped foster the God Man aspect with the further development of the Myth, to the co-opting of Marcionite texts! Bah bah bah bah bah... I could go on for hours but Ive probably already driven you insaner than Cthulhu on acid.

There are researchers by the dozens whom have spent there entire lives showing the Biblical-Jesus dichotomy issues in clear logical arguments that Id simple butcher their great works if I tried to re-iterate their Hypothesis here. [If you truly care about the roots of the Christian Faith, you should be interested in getting ones feet wet, test your faith even lol, an adversary dares you. Do some rational, higher critical research]

My current favorite researcher is Robert M Prices work on Christ myth theory [Totally check him out, its an eye opener!] His showing of the Hellenized Greek novels at the time, and decades before "Christ" show amazing parallels in the development of the Jesus story in its varying aspects, hell just look at the Greek Homer! [And thats just a snippet aspect of the wider theory]

The mystery is so deep, perhaps the truth may never be known, but as the X-files said [The truth is out there]

[I can try to answer specific questions if you have them]

Although please accept that I myself am still looking into many layers of it yet untapped by my own brain, so In some cases Ill be saying... sry I really aint got a clue lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price

The best part is, Robert is just as big a scholar when it comes to HP Lovecraft ROFL! [Yes I had to get that in there or Yog-Sothoth will have my ass for breakfast, nature of the beast]

I can post alot more about this very much [working theory], it aint bullet proof by a damn sight, and Im NOT INTERESTED in telling you that this is the truth.

posted September 21, 2012 09:57 AM            

you raise many good points which i agree with so all i can offer is props to you... oh and one other little tidbit -

The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ by Levi

not necessarily completely accurate (channeled material which i am wary of) but does offer interesting alternatives to those "lost years" which does place Jesus in India...

and also The Propeht of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Upton Ewing... one of his assertions is that Christ is an office that others before have held, as will others in the future... Lexx has pointed out numerous times the Christ simply translates to annointed one...

keep throwing this stuff out there - it's reassuring to know that i'm not such a minority

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" Some define good as that which preserves, and evil as that which destroys; but destruction can be cleansing and purifying, for there is such a thing in both men and races as spiritual constipation, which comes from too much preservation of the status quo." ( Dion Fortune )

posted September 21, 2012 01:20 PM            

This map [Using it as it just shows the routes in a clear image] is not from the time of "Christ", its about 500-800AD (And its the Judaic-Radhanites), but do not be so quick to dismiss such as a means to say there was no trading going on all along those routes previously. Please see the other maps Ive linked to, and even just look into the trade hypotheses more yourself!

@emitres:

quote:

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Not necessarily completely accurate (channeled material which i am wary of) but does offer interesting alternatives to those "lost years" which does place Jesus in India

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Cheers!

Yea, something I really need to tighten up is the India connection after a possible teaching phase in Judea. Simply in the process of gathering more data

And yes, I do have a serious issue with changelings lol

@Juni:

[I may add more later, maybe even some basic attempts at dispelling the "Christ-Myth"]

posted September 21, 2012 04:59 PM            

quote:

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I feel its worth considering for anyone interested in exploring the various Christ/Myth/Man/Men situation. At its core it requires no understanding of the bible, and instead favors a rational approach.

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Question, is this to find the evidence the historical man Jesus existed or the Christ Consciousness/Universal consciousness exists with or with out the physcial man Jesus?

posted September 21, 2012 05:02 PM            

quote:

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The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ by Levi

not necessarily completely accurate (channeled material which i am wary of) but does offer interesting alternatives to those "lost years" which does place Jesus in India...

---

While not a fan of channeling either, I believe Levi was on to something and I love the Aquarian Gospel. It references right nicely back to missing pieces/events of the Gospels.
A chain or thread runs through the use of both texts side by side. As does in texts of Transmission.

posted September 21, 2012 06:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb: Question, is this to find the evidence the historical man Jesus existed or the Christ Consciousness/Universal consciousness exists with or with out the physcial man Jesus?

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Good question! I do not feel I can provide bullet proof evidence for any of that. I guess what I'm offering is just an alternative to the Biblical Jesus narrative, [Yet a very rational model, in my opinion] and one must decide for themselves how that fits their own views on the matter?

Weigh all of the theory/circumstantial evidence pro & con, and just see what fits! Do not allow me or anyone else to say that there way is the only way!

While I'm "Pro-Logic" I'm not against the exploration of any theory :)

The universal consciousness aspect is simply subjective to how you feel about it. Can it be explored by rational means? To a point I would say yes as regards using methodologies that can allow one to explore realms of the universe at large.

After coming back [From Head Space] perhaps comparing notes with as scientific an approach as one could, constant repeating results may become apparent! Yet, all of that could still me diddly squat on an objective human level... sort of a paradox I suppose!

[See the work of Dr Rick Strassman]

Dr Strassman's studies aimed to investigate the effects of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a powerful entheogen, or psychedelic, that he hypothesizes is produced by the human brain in the pineal gland. DMT is found naturally in various natural sources, and is related to human neurotransmitters such as serotonin and melatonin.

Ive read it, its pretty good :)

Is that sort of your own personal reference to what "Christ Consciousness" is?

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In your direct inference to perhaps the "Anointed-Christ", I cannot not offer you any physical evidence to support such a claim, however I see it explored really well by Philp K Dick's novels:

[The Transmigration of Timothy Archer] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transmigration_of_Timothy_Archer

Set in the late 1960s and 1970s, the story describes the efforts of Episcopal Bishop Timothy Archer, who must cope with the theological and philosophical implications of the newly-discovered Gnostic Zadokite scroll fragments. The character of Bishop Archer is loosely based on the controversial, iconoclastic Episcopal Bishop James Pike, who in 1969 died of exposure while exploring the Judean Desert near the Dead Sea in the West Bank.

[VALIS] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS

VALIS is a 1981 science fiction novel by Philip K. Dick. The title is an acronym for Vast Active Living Intelligence System, Dick's gnostic vision of one aspect of God.

[Also much of that book contains huge portions of Philp's [Exegesis], which is like a Gnostic diatribe from a 20th century mind lol]

[Divine Invasion] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Invasion

The Divine Invasion is a BSFA Award nominated[1] 1981 science fiction book by Philip K. Dick. It is the second book in the gnostic VALIS trilogy, and takes place in the indeterminate future, perhaps a century or more after VALIS. It was originally titled, "Valis Regained".

After the fall of Masada in 74 AD, God, or "Yah" is exiled from Earth and forced to take refuge in the CY30-CY30B star system. Meanwhile, the people of Earth are ruled by Belial, the spirit of darkness, but Yah is intent on reclaiming his creation.

Phil went completely mad btw, perhaps he encountered God or some Gnostic mushroom lol...

Apologizes if my posts fails to answer your question, Ill think on it some more :flower:

posted September 22, 2012 02:00 AM            

Now worries I have the whole thing saved, I can rebuild it at any moment even if the whole thread explodes :)

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:::Re-Posting lost replies:::

Juni and I where trying to get on the same page as regards the "Christ" situation.

I said:

---------------------------

@Juni: I think I need to state as clearly as I am able so that we can get "Christ" on the same page, how I feel about it in relation to the [Judaism/Biblical Model].

I completely reject it! Judaism simply infected, co-opted and pretty much destroyed the real teachings. Explore some of the inferences I alluded to in my Christ-Myth hypotheses. Much work has been done to show how such was achieved [By many great scholars] in an effort to gain control over what I feel you, & possible me, refer to as Gnostic-Christianity.

I go so far as to remove the "Christian" tag from the "Jesus hypothesis" I put forward. Id settle for Gnostic-Yeshuism (Although in reality I do not feel that was even his true identity, or if it was even one person [Due to the Caravan-situation]) and it may never be known, but Ill settle for such in reference here

Does that help at all?

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posted September 22, 2012 02:54 AM            

Of course the very early Christians were even more factious than denominations today. Some of them were, unlike the militant one that rose up and became dominant, quite beautiful (but then others were even more insane). Of course the militant Christians who rose up didn't hesitate to bear false witness against their Christian rivals anymore than they hesitated to kill them (just goes to show the meek will inherit the Earth when everyone else is done with it, unless you take that saying literally and equate "inheriting the Earth" with "worm food" and also that many people prosper living by the sword rather than dying by it) so that it's very difficult to find out the details of these alternate versions (however, for all the libraries Christians burned in their fear of truth and light many books by and about these alternate Christians still survived and have shown that when churches "transcribed books before burning the original" willfully lied about their beliefs and the like). For more on that see Lost Christianities (and IIRC, they don't mention them all, just the ones that came first). Keep in mind that you should be able to get this book through your local library (even if you have to ILL it).

posted September 22, 2012 04:12 AM            

Juni Said: (Something to this effect)

quote:

---

All we can do is look at how we arrived at our various beliefs and work from there?

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Yes I agree :)

Ill iterate my thought and logic process to show how I arrived at my own [Subjective Hypothesis] as regards the alternative to the [Judaic-Model].

I took a long hard look critical approach to the story that was being presented in both the Old, but then even more so in the New Testament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Strauss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_Historical_Jesus

I followed the work of as many different scholars and researchers as I could find, from people coming out of Fundie-Bible colleges, [Bart D. Ehrman (born 1955) is an American New Testament scholar] to more open minded thinkers such as Robert Price [Biblical Scholar], Jordan Maxwell ~ [His work on Astro-Theology and dozens of other researchers in the same field)], to the really important work of Sociologist(s) such as Rodney Stark.

Stark has proposed in The Rise of Christianity that Christianity grew through gradual individual conversions via social networks of family, friends and colleagues. His main contribution, by comparing documented evidence of Christianity's spread in the Roman Empire with the history of the LDS church in the 19th and 20th centuries, was to illustrate that a sustained and continuous growth could lead to huge growth within 200 years. This use of exponential growth as a driver to explain the growth of the church without the need for mass conversions (deemed necessary by historians until then) is now widely accepted.

Stark has suggested that Christianity grew because it treated women better than pagan religions. He also suggested that making Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire weakened the faithfulness of the Christian community by bringing in people who did not really believe or had a weaker belief. This is consistent with Stark's published observations of contemporary religious movements, where once-successful faith movements gradually decline in fervor due to the free rider problem.

------

And legions of other researchers from various stand points for nearly 10 years continuously [Sill looking for more clues/theory(s) on the [True Picture]. Willing to smash my current model in favor of a better one!

All of such to my own mind screamed FOUL! Something was seriously fraked up with the Judaic Biblical Hypotheses. [But please, do not take my word for it! Look into all of this yourself and make up your own mind]

So after all of that Research what do I feel [Subjectively] are some of the core issues, and what the hell happened to Jesus?

Well I approach it like this: I see reason, purpose, and a logical need to control the teachings of people who if left unchecked, would be in danger of freeing humanity form thought constructs that only serve to enslave ones mind to a contrived version of the truth.

Cast oneself back to Judea 2000 years ago!

You have a deeply ingrained Judaic Religion/Philosophy under relatively-oppressive Roman Military and Governmental control coming into contact with... we shall say [working from the supposition of the Trade-Route/Eastern Adept Hypothesis] Gnostic-Yeshua!

Both the Judaic Levitical class and the Rome ruling class where well aware of the possible bogey man situation. Rome desperately wanted to gain an edge over the one aspect that would seal the deal as regards control! Human Spirituality, built on the back of a God Man and already established logistic and lengthy [Leviticus System] of bible belief [Judaic-Old-Testmant, backed by a Psychopathic Yahweh].

Its simply too good of an opportunity to miss! Understand that the Jews at the time were constantly on the look out for their next Messiah that would free them from Rome! Do you really think the Romans were not aware of this fact? Seriously!

So "Jesus" in my own mind really stems from a few core [yet obviously quite complex situations that one must explore for themselves]. He became an contrived amalgam of a few people.

[Just my Opinion]

One or more spiritual teachers at the time in Judea who fit into what the Jews would accept as a [Spiritual Messiah], and more [Pro-Revolutionary] characters such as Barabbas or Jesus Barabbas along with probably other yet unknowns of the same disposition.

Matthew refers to Barabbas only as a "notorious prisoner."[8] Mark and Luke further refer to Barabbas as one involved in a stasis, a riot.[9] John 18:40 refers to Barabbas as a lēstēs ("bandit"), "the word Josephus always employs when talking about Revolutionaries", Robert Eisenman observes.[10]

[Situation in Judea 2000 Years Ago]

[Spiritual Eastern Adept(s)] + [Pro-Revolutionary(s)] = [Judaic Messiah]

And one that Rome could eventually gain control over! [Can talk more about that later]

Obviously its hardly that simple or everyone would see such clearly, be brave enough to do some research for oneself :)

Although I'm more interested in discussing simply just [Trade Caravan] teachers than getting into a face off with a Christian Mob right now, so don't burn the witch just yet lol... [Not Again] lol

So all of that aside I was still left scratching my head over the [Spiritual Teacher] aspect, since I completely rejected the New Testament version of events on various grounds as I have previously laid out.

I could accept that there was a high probability that [YES] There was a man or men (maybe even women too) at the time of "Christ", teaching something that was having a pro-found effect on the region but perhaps in a very small dose. At least in compared to what one may arbitrarily refers to as the [Christian Movement] in the new testament, at least in the infancy stage obviously.

The only logical conclusion I can intellectually accept is the situation with the [Trade Routes].

Zen Adepts coming into contact with on the fence Jews in a Hellenized Galilee!

I do not feel the Christ-Myth could have been built on contrived Midrashic stories alone without a real and locally known [Judea] personage to layer such around. It just wouldn't fly as well as it has in my opinion!

So in conclusion, [YES] Jesus/Yeshua did exist in some form! But from my view point. [NOT] as you have been told from a Biblical Perspective

Please take some time to examine all of the hypothetical yet logical possibilities Ive put forward and make up your own mind where you yourself stand?

Doesn't really matter to me, Im just telling you how I view Jesus :)

posted September 22, 2012 06:41 AM            

While I reject the Biblical Jesus in its generally accepted form, I do not in anyway deny the possibility of a [TRUE] and [BRILLIANT] Spiritual Teacher from the very same era being used as the inspiration!

One of my own personal favorites books that deals with such teachers, a man in his 20s like my hypothesis [Man form Galilee] on the [Silk Routes] is the Character of "Santiago" from the wonderful book The Alchemist.

The Alchemist follows the journey of an Andalusian shepherd boy named Santiago. Santiago, believing a recurring dream to be prophetic, decides to travel to a gypsy in a nearby town to discover its meaning. She tells him that there is a treasure in the Pyramids in Egypt.

Early into his journey, he meets an old king, Melchizedek, who tells him to sell his sheep to travel to Egypt, and his Personal Legend: what he always wanted to accomplish in his life. And that "When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it." This is the core philosophy and motto of the book.

The Atmosphere and very spiritual setting of the Caravans as they crossed the Sahara Desert really comes through very viscerally in my mind!

Easy to see how being surrounded by so much spiritual awesomeness in the wider world, free from Judea and Rome, that when the possible [Man from Galilee] returns, wouldn't you too be compelled to try and share that with others?