posted February 15, 2013 04:10 PM            

Four simple words, yes? But now look at them as emphasis is added .

"YOU say I am" (others may or may not)

"you SAY I am" (you say it but you do not Know it...your heart is veiled)

"you say I am" (why do you not accuse others? )

"you say I AM (which is the same as the messiah...God said "I am that I am").

Did Christ say he was the Messiah?

posted February 15, 2013 04:26 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted February 15, 2013 07:56 PM            

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YESHUA EVER SAID HE WAS A MESSIAH, NOR ANY DEITY.
I feel VERY strongly that Yeshua and Jesus bar Abbas (cousins) were confused as being one and the same.

CHRIST IS NOT A NAME.
It is a condition as in being possessed or anointed.

quote:

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Jewish messiah claimants

In Judaism, "messiah" originally meant a divinely appointed king, such as David, Cyrus the Great[1] or Alexander the Great. Later, especially after the failure of the Hasmonean Kingdom (37 BC) and the Jewish–Roman wars (AD 66-135), the figure of the Jewish Messiah was one who would deliver the Jews from oppression and usher in an Olam Haba ("world to come") or Messianic Age.

Jesus of Nazareth (c. 5 BCE – 30 CE), leader of a small Jewish sect who was crucified; Jews who believed him to be the Messiah were the first Christians, also known as Jewish Christians. Christians and Messianic Jews believe him to be the real Messiah.
Simon of Peraea (c. 4 BCE), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans.
Athronges (c. 3 CE), a shepherd turned rebel leader.
Menahem ben Judah (?), allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader.
Vespasian, c. 70, according to Josephus
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War.
Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440–470 convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster.
Ishak ben Ya'kub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani (684–705), who led a revolt in Persia against the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan.
Yudghan (?), a disciple of Abu 'Isa who continued the faith after Isa was slain.
Serene (?), who around 720 claimed to be the Messiah and advocated expulsion of Muslims and relaxing various rabbinic laws before being arrested; he then recanted.
David Alroy (?), born in Kurdistan, who around 1160 agitated against the caliph before being assassinated.
Nissim ben Abraham (?), active around 1295.
Moses Botarel of Cisneros (?), active around 1413; claimed to be a sorcerer able to combine the names of God.
Asher Lämmlein (?), a German near Venice who proclaimed himself a forerunner of the Messiah in 1502.
David Reubeni (1490–1541?) and Solomon Molcho (1500–1532), adventurers who travelled in Portugal, Italy and Turkey; Molcho was eventually burned at the stake by the Pope.
A mostly unknown Czech Jew from around the 1650s.
Sabbatai Zevi (1626–1676), an Ottoman Jew who claimed to be the Messiah, but then converted to Islam; still has followers today in the Donmeh.
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
Jacob Querido (?–1690), claimed to be the new incarnation of Sabbatai; later converted to Islam and led the Donmeh.
Miguel Cardoso (1630–1706), another successor of Sabbatai who claimed to be the "Messiah ben Ephraim."
Mordecai Mokia (1650–1729), "the Rebuker," another person who proclaimed himself Messiah after Sabbatai's death.
Löbele Prossnitz (?–1750), attained some following amongst former followers of Sabbatai, calling himself the "Messiah ben Joseph."
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726–1791), who claimed to be the reincarnation of King David and preached a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism.
Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902–1994), the seventh Chabad Rabbi who tried to "prepare the way" for the Messiah. An unidentifiable number of his followers believe him to be the Messiah, though he himself never said this and actually scoffed at such claims which were made during his lifetime.

Christian messiah claimants
Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri, Baha'u'llah
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed
Simon Magus
See also: List of people claimed to be Jesus and Second Coming

Verses in the Christian bible tell that Jesus will come again in some fashion; various people have claimed to, in fact, be the second coming of Jesus. Others have been styled a new messiah still under the umbrella of Christianity.

Simon Magus (early 1st century), he was Samaritan, and a native of Gitta; he was considered a god in Simonianism; he "darkly hinted" that he himself was Christ, calling himself the Standing One.
Dositheos the Samaritan (mid 1st century), he was one of the supposed founders of Mandaeanism. After the time of Jesus he wished to persuade the Samaritans that he himself was the Messiah prophesied by Moses. Dositheus pretended to be the Christ (Messiah), applying Deuteronomy 18:15 to himself, and he compares him with Theudas and Judas the Galilean.
Tanchelm of Antwerp (c. 1110), who violently opposed the sacrament and the Eucharist.
Ann Lee (1736–1784), a central figure to the Shakers,[14] who thought she "embodied all the perfections of God" in female form and considered herself to be Christ’s female counterpart in 1772.
Bernhard Müller (c. 1799–1834) claimed to be the Lion of Judah and a prophet in possession of the Philosopher's stone.
John Nichols Thom (1799–1838), a Cornish tax rebel.
Arnold Potter (1804–1872), Latter Day Saint schismatic leader; called himself "Potter Christ"
Hong Xiuquan (1814–1864), Hakka Chinese; claimed himself to be the younger brother of Jesus Christ; started the Taiping Rebellion and founded the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace. Committed suicide before the fall of Tianjing (Nanjing) in 1864.
Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri, Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1864), born Shiite, adopting Bábism later in life, he claimed to be the promised one of all religions, and founded the Bahá'í Faith.
Jacobina Mentz Maurer (1841 or 1842-1874) was a German-Brazilian woman who lived and died in the state of Rio Grande do Sul who emerged as a messianic prophetess, a representation of God, and later declared the very reincarnation of Jesus Christ on earth by her German-speaking community called Die Muckers (or the false saints) by her enemies, Die Spotters (or the mockers). After a number of deadly confrontations with outsiders, Jacobina was shot to death together with many of her followers by the Brazilian Imperial Army.
William W. Davies (1833–1906), Latter Day Saint (Mormon) schismatic leader; claimed that his infant son Arthur (born 1868) was the reincarnated Jesus Christ.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India (1835–1908), claimed to be the awaited Mahdi as well as (Second Coming) and likeness of Jesus the promised Messiah at the end of time, being the only person in Islamic history who claimed to be both. He claimed to be Jesus in the metaphorical sense; in character. He founded the Ahmadiyya Movement in 1889 envisioning it to be the rejuvenation of Islam, and claimed to be commissioned by God for the reformation of mankind.[16] He declared that Jesus survived crucifixion and died a natural death having migrated towards the east.
Cyrus Reed Teed (October 18, 1839 - December 22, 1908, erroneously Cyrus Tweed) was a U.S. eclectic physician and alchemist turned religious leader and messiah. In 1869, claiming divine inspiration, Dr. Teed took on the name Koresh and proposed a new set of scientific and religious ideas he called Koreshanity.
Father Divine (George Baker) (c. 1880 – September 10, 1965), an African American spiritual leader from about 1907 until his death who claimed to be God.
André Matsoua (1899–1942), Congolese founder of Amicale, proponents of which subsequently adopted him as Messiah in the late 1920s.
Ahn Sahng-hong (1918–1985), founder of the World Mission Society Church of God, whose members believe he is the messiah.
Samael Aun Weor (1917–1977), born Víctor Manuel Gómez Rodríguez, Colombian citizen and later Mexican, was an author, lecturer and founder of the 'Universal Christian Gnostic Movement', according to him, 'the most powerful movement ever founded'. By 1972, he referenced that his death and resurrection would be occurring before 1978.
Sun Myung Moon (1920–2012), founder and leader of the Unification Church established in Seoul, South Korea, who considered himself the Second Coming of Christ, but not Jesus himself in 1954. Although it is generally believed by Unification Church members ("Moonies") that he is the Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ and is anointed to fulfill Jesus' unfinished mission.
Charles Manson (born 1934), leader of the "Manson family" who ordered his followers to kill in preparation for the end of the world. He also claimed to be Satan.
Yahweh ben Yahweh (1935–2007), born as Hulon Mitchell, Jr., a black nationalist and separatist who created the Nation of Yahweh and allegedly orchestrated the murder of dozens of persons.
Laszlo Toth (born 1940) claimed he was Jesus Christ as he battered Michelangelo's Pieta with a geologist hammer.
Wayne Bent (born 1941), also known as Michael Travesser of the Lord Our Righteousness Church, also known as the "Strong City Cult", convicted December 15, 2008 of one count of criminal sexual contact of a minor and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor in 2008.
Iesu Matayoshi (born 1944), in 1997 he established the World Economic Community Party based on his conviction that he is God and the Christ.
Jung Myung Seok (born 1945), a South Korean who was a member of the Unification Church in the 1970s, before breaking off to found the dissenting group[21] now known as Providence Church in 1980. He also considers himself the Second Coming of Christ, but not Jesus himself in 1980. He believes he has come to finish the incomplete message and mission of Jesus Christ, asserting that he is the Messiah and has the responsibility to save all mankind. He claims that the Christian doctrine of resurrection is false but that people can be saved through him.
Claude Vorilhon now known as Raël "messenger of the Elohim" (born 1946), a French professional test driver and former automobile journalist became founder and leader of UFO religion the Raël Movement in 1972, which teaches that life on Earth was scientifically created by a species of extraterrestrials, which they call Elohim. He claimed he met an extraterrestrial humanoid in 1973 and became the Messiah.[27] Then devoted himself to the task he said was given by his "biological father", an extraterrestrial named Yahweh.
Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda (born 1946), a Puerto Rican preacher who has claimed to be "the Man Jesus Christ", who is indwelled with the same spirit that dwelled in Jesus. Founder of the "Growing in Grace" ministries.
Inri Cristo (born 1948) of Indaial, Brazil, a claimant to be the second Jesus.
Apollo Quiboloy (born 1950), founder and leader of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ religious group, who claims that Jesus Christ is the "Almighty Father," that Quiboloy is "His Appointed Son," and that salvation is now completed. Proclaims himself as the "Appointed Son of the God" not direct to the point as the "Begotten Son of the God" in 1985.
David Icke (born 1952), of Great Britain, has described himself as "the son of God", and a "channel for the Christ spirit".
Brian David Mitchell was born on October 18, 1953 in Salt Lake City, Utah, he believed himself the fore-ordained angel born on earth to be the Davidic "servant" prepared by God as a type of Messiah who would restore the divinely led kingdom of Israel to the world in preparation for Christ's second coming. (Mitchell's belief in such an end-times figure – also known among many fundamentalist Latter Day Saints as "the One Mighty and Strong" – appeared to be based in part on a reading of the biblical book of Isaiah by the independent LDS Hebraist, Avraham Gileadi, with which Mitchell became familiar from his former participation with Stirling Allan's American Study Group.)
David Koresh (Vernon Wayne Howell) (1959–1993), leader of the Branch Davidians.
Maria Devi Christos (born 1960), founder of the Great White Brotherhood.
Sergei Torop (born 1961), who started to call himself "Vissarion", founder of the Church of the Last Testament and the spiritual community Ecopolis Tiberkul in Southern Siberia.
David Shayler (born 1965), former MI5 agent and whistleblower who declared himself the Messiah on 7 July 2007.[33]
Alan John Miller (born 1964), founder of Divine Truth, a new religious movement based in Australia. Alan John Miller, also known as A.J., who claims to be Jesus of Nazareth through reincarnation. Miller was formerly an elder in the Jehovah's Witnesses.
José Luis de Jesús Miranda (born April 22, 1946 in Ponce, Puerto Rico), founder and leader of Creciendo en Gracia sect (Growing In Grace International Ministry, Inc.), based in Miami, Florida. He claims to be both Jesus Christ returned and the Antichrist, and exhibits a "666" tattoo on his forearm. He has referred to himself as Jesucristo Hombre, which translates to "Jesus Christ made Man"

Muslim messiah claimants
Main article: People claiming to be the Mahdi

Islamic tradition has a prophecy of the Mahdi, who will come alongside the return of Isa (Jesus).

Muhammad Jaunpuri (1443–1505), who traveled Northeastern India; he influenced the Mahdavia and the Zikris.
Báb (1819–1850), who declared himself to be the promised Mahdi in Shiraz, Iran in 1844. (Related to Baha'i claims.)
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) of Qadian, 'the Promised Messiah' return of Jesus as well as the 'Mahdi', founder of the Ahmadiyya religious movement. He preached that Jesus Christ had survived crucifixion and died a natural death. He was the only person in Islamic history to have claimed to be both the promised return of Jesus as well as the promised Mahdi.
Muhammad Ahmad ("The Mad Mahdi") (1844–1885), who declared himself the Mahdi in 1881, defeated the Ottoman Egyptian authority, and founded a short-lived empire in Sudan.
Sayyid Mohammed Abdullah Hassan (1864–1920) of Somaliland, who engaged in military conflicts from 1900 to 1920.
Rashad Khalifa (1935–1990), an Egyptian-American biochemist who claimed that he had discovered a mathematical code in the text of the Qur'an involving the number 19; he later claimed to be the "Messenger of the Covenant" and founded the "Submitters International" movement before being murdered.
Juhayman al-Otaibi (1936–1980), who seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca in November 1979 and declared his son-in-law the Mahdi.

Other/combination messiah claimants
Haile Sellasie, also known as Ras Tafari

This list features people who are said, either by themselves or their followers, to be some form of a messiah that do not easily fit into only Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Haile Selassie of Ethiopia (1892–1975), Messiah of the Rastafari movement. Never claimed himself to be Messiah, but was thus proclaimed by Leonard Howell, amongst others.
André Matsoua (1899–1942), Congolese founder of Amicale, proponents of which subsequently adopted him as Messiah.

Samael Aun Weor (1917–1977), born Víctor Manuel Gómez Rodríguez, Colombian citizen and later Mexican, was an author, lecturer and founder of the 'Universal Christian Gnostic Movement', according to him, 'the most powerful movement ever founded'. By 1972, Samael Aun Weor referenced that his death and resurrection would be occurring before 1978.
Nirmala Srivastava (1923–2011), guru and goddess of Sahaja Yoga, proclaimed herself to be the Comforter promised by Jesus (that is, the incarnation of the Holy Ghost / Adi Shakti).
Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi (born 25 November 1941) is a spiritual leader and the founder of the spiritual movements Messiah Foundation International (MFI) and Anjuman Serfaroshan-e-Islam.
He is controversial for being declared the Mehdi, Messiah, and Kalki Avatar by the MFI.
Raël, leader of the International Raëlian Movement (born 30 September 1946); Rael claimed he met an extraterrestrial being in 1973 and became the Messiah.
World Teacher (unknown), a being claimed to be the Theosophical Maitreya and the Messiah (promised one) of all religions. He is said to have descended from the higher planes and manifested a physical body in early 1977 in the Himalayas, then on 19 July 1977 he is said to have taken a commercial airplane flight from Pakistan to England. He is currently said to be living in secret in London;
promoted by New Age activist Benjamin Creme and his organization, Share International (See Maitreya (Benjamin Creme)).
Ryuho Okawa (born 7 July 1956 ), is the founder of Happy Science in Japan. Okawa claims to channel the spirits of Muhammad, Christ, Buddha and Confucius and claims to be the incarnation of the supreme spiritual being called El Cantare.

More here with links to information on each wannabe messiah. ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

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posted February 15, 2013 07:59 PM            

Something I've pondered on a time.

"If" Israel of Christ's time had heeded his message, turn the other cheek, if accused settle quickly, if ordered to carry a bag a mile, carry it two miles etc

There never would have been a eraser and diaspora, his message was in essence one of non rebellion. BUT Israeli society of that time was not capable of such an approach.

And to this day, mankind is still not capable of such an approach. Which to my pov means the events of Revelation are going to happen.

posted February 15, 2013 08:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:

Of course he did, and moreso in that he claimed to be the Son of God.

Something I've pondered on a time.

"If" Israel of Christ's time had heeded his message, turn the other cheek, if accused settle quickly, if ordered to carry a bag a mile, carry it two miles etc

There never would have been a eraser and diaspora, his message was in essence one of non rebellion. BUT Israeli society of that time was not capable of such an approach.
And to this day, mankind is still not capable of such an approach. Which to my pov means the events of Revelation are going to happen.

"If" mankind cannot leave in peace now, with a Christ/man-God showing the way, jettisoning such a truth and replacing it with what man creates will lead to what it always has led to.

---

Following the hateful messages in the bibles is a path to destruction.
The false god of second Genesis onward;
is pure evil, and the Christian deity.
Not a loving god by any stretch of the imagination:
Scroll down aqt this page link for info on that faux god.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm
Rabid Christians are pretty much drooling and hissing with glee at the notion of hell fire and damnation for most of humanity and wishing for wars and horrors with delight.
Sick and unloving to say the least.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm

posted February 15, 2013 08:32 PM            

As He sagely said people read words, sometimes with full conscientiousness, yet do not understand they point to me.

A paraphrase of course, but very wise, it means, like cutting and pasting, one can read whatever one will, without understanding and applying..it means nothing at all.

Paraphrasing, is actual communication, cutting and pasting more or less, imo, means one has not really internalized and knows how to apply

INOW, someone else is doing one's thinking, then speaking.

Mere delusion actually

posted February 15, 2013 08:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Not at all, Jesus displayed what a Son of the Creator should display, compassion and disdain for those who knew what to do, yet did not do so.

As He sagely said people read words, sometimes with full conscientiousness, yet do not understand they point to me.

A paraphrase of course, but very wise, it means, like cutting and pasting, one can read whatever one will, without understanding and applying..it means nothing at all.

Mere delusion actually

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posted February 15, 2013 08:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:

Not at all, Jesus displayed what a Son of the Creator should display, compassion and disdain for those who knew what to do, yet did not do so.

As He sagely said people read words, sometimes with full conscientiousness, yet do not understand they point to me.

A paraphrase of course, but very wise, it means, like cutting and pasting, one can read whatever one will, without understanding and applying..it means nothing at all.

Mere delusion actually

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
Yesha was about love and peace;
but Jesus bar Abbas/Jesus Son Of The Father was very insane and a delusional messianic.
Two men confused as being the same man. Following the hateful messages in the bibles is a path to destruction.
The false god of second Genesis onward;
is pure evil, and the Christian deity.
Not a loving god (as the good creator God of Genesis One was)by any stretch of the imagination:
Scroll down aqt this page link for info on that faux god. http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm
Rabid Christians are pretty much drooling and hissing with glee at the notion of hell fire and damnation for most of humanity and wishing for wars and horrors with delight.
Sick and unloving to say the least.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm

---

That's better, sounds gnostic actually.

Jesus was a good Aeon that loved humanity etc etc

Problem being, Gnostics also deny Jesus was crucified.

posted February 15, 2013 09:03 PM            

Not a single saying of Jesus can be traced back to a solitary historical figure. The only way you can have it where "Jesus" did say "this or that" is if you suspend reason and logic and believe in the literal truth of the Bible...

(Ive shown in other threads how that has serious problems)

Its worth noting the same can be said of "The Buddha" and many other(s)

I'm not implying that such makes all of the Jesus or Buddha sayings useless, ofc not! Whats more important is that is the message actually exemplifying common sense with good intent?

Someone claiming to be a Messiah ranks pretty low on my scale of useful messages...

Just look at the list of Messiah Claimers" Lexx has posted. They are a dime a dozen!

posted February 15, 2013 09:31 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
That's better, sounds gnostic actually.

Jesus was a good Aeon that loved humanity etc etc

Problem being, Gnostics also deny Jesus was crucified.

---

If we were to assume the mythos were true;
then again;
NO ONE SACRIFICED THEIR LIFE.
If you die and are brought back to physical life 3 days later and knew that was the deal;
then knowing you only had to die or fake it for a few days then come back to life;
then where is the actual death?
Where is the sacrifice?
And why would an omnipotent god need to play such human sacrifice games and need humans to do his dirty deeds?
That is illogical at best.
A true god does not need us to help or even believe in him.
Yeshua left for nearly 2 decades because the philosophical atmosphere of Judea was primitive, superstitious, war loving, and well, unloving and intolerant,
to the point of murder
of anyone outside their rigid belief and social structure;
well for the gentle intelligent Yeshua it was just too oppressive and he wanted to learn of the truth of the bigger world and peoples and God than just those narrow, bigoted, intolerant, bloodthirsty, confines of the minds of most of Judea.

Yes Yeshua was a good man and teacher who did not follow Jewish teachings.
Jesus bar Abbas was a strict Jew who preached
tales of messianic delusion.

posted February 15, 2013 09:43 PM            

And finally these (more than) twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character of the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven:

Adad of Assyria

Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece

Alcides of Thebes

Atys of Phrygia

Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phoenicia

Bali of Afghanistan

Beddru of Japan

Buddha Sakia of India

Cadmus of Greece

Crite of Chaldea

Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam

Divine Teacher of Plato

Fohi and Tien of China

Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico

Hesus of Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids

Hil and Feta of the Mandaites

Ischy of the Island of Formosa

Ixion and Quirnus of Rome

Holy One of Xaca

Indra of Tibet

Jao of Nepal

Krishna of Hindostan

Mikado of the Sintoos

Mohammed, or Mahomet, of Arabia

Odin of the Scandinavians

Prometheus of Caucasus

Salivahana of Bermuda

Thammuz of Syria

Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls

Universal Monarch of the Sibyls

Wittoba of the Bilingonese

Xamolxis of Thrace

Zoar of the Bonzes

Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia

Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt

posted February 15, 2013 09:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
That's better, sounds gnostic actually.

Jesus was a good Aeon that loved humanity etc etc

Problem being, Gnostics also deny Jesus was crucified.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
The specifics of the crucifiction/crucifixion are so screwed up by the story tellers that the truth is not easy to see.
Was there a crucifixion?
Yes, but no one died, especially not Yeshua.
And I do not buy into the majority of the Gnostic writings either, so my viewpoints have nothing to do with that.

If we were to assume the mythos were true;
then again;
NO ONE SACRIFICED THEIR LIFE.
If you die and are brought back to physical life 3 days later and knew that was the deal;
then knowing you only had to die or fake it for a few days then come back to life;
then where is the actual death?
Where is the sacrifice?
And why would an omnipotent god need to play such human sacrifice games and need humans to do his dirty deeds?
That is illogical at best.
A true god does not need us to help or even believe in him.
Yeshua left for nearly 2 decades because the philosophical atmosphere of Judea was primitive, superstitious, war loving, and well, unloving and intolerant,
to the point of murder
of anyone outside their rigid belief and social structure;
well for the gentle intelligent Yeshua it was just too oppressive and he wanted to learn of the truth of the bigger world and peoples and God than just those narrow, bigoted, intolerant, bloodthirsty, confines of the minds of most of Judea.

Yes Yeshua was a good man and teacher who did not follow Jewish teachings.
Jesus bar Abbas was a strict Jew who preached
tales of messianic delusion.

---

Or

The Message is:

posted February 16, 2013 08:34 AM            

quote:

---

paraphrase of course, but very wise, it means, like cutting and pasting, one can read whatever one will, without understanding and applying..it means nothing at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Or

The Message is:

This life is mere illusion dressed up as reality with "death" being the final act of it all?

---

posted February 16, 2013 09:23 AM            

So, was Jesus the Messiah or The Prophet? Christians who refuse to
look at this passage in the light of logic will say both. That Jesus
was both because the bible "says" he was both. That is an
irrational statement as I will indicate below.

1. The Jews were clearly expecting three separate people.
Unless you want to argue that you know more than the Jews about their
own scripture and prophecy, then you must accept that there were
three different people expected. If, however, you want to make the
argument that you do indeed know more than Jews about their own
prophecy, then you can ignore the rest of this passage since rational
argument has no place here. The questions put to John the Baptist
are clear given the following context.

a. They thought John might be the Messiah because he was baptizing
which is normally the function of Priests/Kings who
are "anointed"/given permission by God to baptize.
b. They thought John might be Elias since he was engaged in active
prophecy (in the tradition of the Jewish prophets), teaching about
the "coming" of someone important.
c. They thought John might be the one prophesied by Moses because
John's character could very well be described as "Moses" like.
Preaching and calling people to the Law and criticizing the
hypocrites.

2. The Jews (and early witnesses) clearly saw Jesus as
a "prophet" (see quotes below), but the question remains weather or
not he was "The Prophet" or "That Prophet" that was mentioned by
Moses. It can be argued that the compilers of the bible, being
unfamiliar with detailed Jewish prophecy and terminology, could take
the references to Jesus as "a prophet" and assume that he was "The
Prophet" mentioned by Moses in Deut, not realizing that three
different people were expected. Recent biblical interpretation
states that Elias is one of the two "witnesses" mentioned in the Book
of Revelations and that will be the fulfillment of the "return of
Elias" that the Jewish prophets predicted. I.e. Elias will return at
the end of times. Recent biblical interpretation however still
assumes that Jesus was both the Messiah AND The Prophet even though
no one claims that Jesus was also Elias.