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Author Topic:   Free Will and The Prodigal Children of God
Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted May 18, 2013 08:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Children have their own minds, their own wills, their own mistakes to make and lessons to learn. No matter how desperately we may want to protect them, and direct their steps along the secure path, in our great love for them, we must refuse to control them, even for the best of reasons. We must know that their freedom is worthy of respect. Yes, even their foolishness, their recklessness and willfulness, demands our profound respect. Though we want so badly to embrace them, it is for love of them that we must let them go; give them the room they need, to wander, to become lost, and, ultimately, to return.

God, who is perfect love, does not love only those who love him, or have mercy on only those who show mercy to others. He does not limit himself; does not choose who he will grace, whether blindly or based on merit. He simply pours himself out, on the just and the unjust. And if he is rejected, he does not insist. He pursues only those who wish to be pursued, but he waits for a consenting word from all. His love and mercy are always ready to be received. But we, who limit our love and mercy towards others, in doing so, must also limit our receptivity to these things. This is only the nature of freedom. And it is freedom, not fate, which stands higher than all gods, and rules the world -- not with an iron fist, but with an open hand. Freedom is higher than God himself, but God himself has placed it there, for love.

We have chosen to learn the most painful lessons, because they are the most beautiful. It is our desire to discover beauty, truth, strength, and love in the most unlikely of places. For this reason, we have entered the world, and entered it blind. We have chosen to perceive strength in weakness -- the strength required to bear weakness. We have chosen to discover the unflinching courage of vulnerability, and the openness of arms nailed to a cross. We have chosen broken hearts for the spilling of compassion. We have chosen mystery. We have placed wisdom not in the light of certainty, but in the pitch darkness of unknowing. We have chosen dependency on what is high, rather than dominion over what is low. We have chosen childhood for ourselves, and fatherhood for God.


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PixieJane
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posted May 18, 2013 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:Children have their own minds, their own wills, their own mistakes to make and lessons to learn. No matter how desperately we may want to protect them, and direct their steps along the secure path, in our great love for them, we must refuse to control them, even for the best of reasons

Obviously written by someone who never had kids.

Kids cover a wide variety of ages. The youngest will stick keys into electrical sockets, drink chemicals that will burn holes through their bodies, and pull down boiling water off the stove on top of them. Slightly larger kids will get into your beer & cigarettes to see why you (or some other adult) like them so much or play in traffic. And even into the teens many will do stupid stuff if you let them. Come on, if my 10-year-old somehow got my gun (which would be easy if I followed this advice and didn't keep it locked up & hid when not on my person because I had to let him "learn from his mistakes like God does me") and started playing with it then out of "love" I should respect his free will and let him learn from his own mistakes? And if my 15-year-old got drunk off the brandy in the house (since I "love" her I couldn't stop her) and then I caught her trying to steal the car for a joyride that I must respect her free will if I love her and let her rip out of there into traffic?

And that if kids viciously attack, maul, drug, and rape each other we should respect their free will out of love? Or that if we find out an uncle is sexually molesting them (which can be done with bribes, btw, as well as blackmail and even darker means) that we just stand clear? That love means standing back and letting them deal with the world to stand or fall on their own (other than maybe giving them some cryptic notes on what to do and not to do, hidden in a mass of irrelevant drivel, in case they're interested)?

Surely you didn't think this through when you said that.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted May 18, 2013 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hear you, and I'm no stranger to that line of thought.

I thought that way for years, and all it brought me was chronic depression, anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. At some point, you have to stop blaming God, or the Vacuum, or Whathaveyou. This is my humble attempt at making excuses for God, or the Vacuum, or Whathaveyou, and not for myself. I think the nature of Perfect Love, is such that it cannot impose itself. In this sense, -- by human standards -- the "All-Powerful" God is weak. Unlike a human parent, He cannot force us to comply with what is best for us. This is just the way it is. And when we understand what love is, in its deepest essence, we will understand why that is. And only when we understand that will we be able to transcend all of this; not just certain nasty parts of it, but all of it. Perfect love is not about rescuing us from one instance of violence, but from all violence. If the rescue attempt is a violent one, in its own way, then it will only be temporarily, and superficially effective.

It may save a life, but not a soul.

Also, God doesn't drink beer, smoke cigarettes, carry a gun, etc.

We created these things. We hold onto them.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted May 18, 2013 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRw9NqvOM9M

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PixieJane
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posted May 18, 2013 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
God doesn't drink beer, smoke cigarettes, carry a gun, etc.

We created these things. We hold onto them.


If you take the Bible and Koran literally then God does far worse than all that not even the most brutal & powerful dictators on Earth could ever hope to be. You can make assumptions that God is actually very loving (as this girl does) but it's not an assumption that we can know for sure is correct (or even that anything like what we envision as Parental God/dess even exists in the first place) and it's not an assumption shared by most people.

Furthermore, God created those things, either directly (tobacco) or indirectly (the easily assembled components) and let us go nuts with them...and that's not what a loving parent as we'd think of would do for kids, unless you consider them adults equal enough to yourself. Using your analogy God left us cigarettes and then let us smoke them (the Bible doesn't even warn against it unless you get creative with "treating the body as a temple"). Napalm is distressingly easy to make, but if I caught my boy with it, or making it, he wouldn't be around it any longer because I love him and therefore don't respect his free will in cases like that. When he's an adult and has better sense then he can make his own mistakes, but then he's not a child anymore, and furthermore if he depended on me for all the answers and to take care of him as an adult then I'd have felt I failed him somehow, and so the analogy still breaks down.

You can get away with saying God is Love (though it takes some creativity) but you can't compare it loving parent-child relationships, it just doesn't work.

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Padre35
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posted May 18, 2013 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Sure God did, he made all of those things, if indirectly.

All things serve God's purposes, and he does not take public opinion polls to decide what to do next.

"Where were you when I made the Heavens and the Earth"?

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shura
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posted May 19, 2013 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
Obviously written by someone who never had kids.

I have a child and I understand what HSC is saying. Let's differentiate between guiding and controlling? I can't fully control my 6 year old's will, nor should I. I can to some degree control his immediate environment. ie I don't keep a gun in the house; if I did it would be inaccesible to him.

The parent/child analogy works well enough when don't enter our own transgressions into the equation. Our own egos, neuroses, ambitions, fears etc inevitably come into play and so we parent in error. The Almighty does not.

quote:
If you take the Bible and Koran literally ...

I trust HSC has moved past this stage.

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shura
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posted May 19, 2013 12:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:

At some point, you have to stop blaming God, or the Vacuum, or Whathaveyou. This is my humble attempt at making excuses for God, or the Vacuum, or Whathaveyou, and not for myself.

Congrats. You've found true Adab.

To clarify: we do not "make excuses" for God because it is required or is in anyway justified. We make excuse because we do not understand.

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Padre35
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posted May 19, 2013 01:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Exactly, this is why I've found it more harmonious to simply view things as they are so to speak.

A sort of light bulb moment went off for me why I'm not an Evangelist though I am a Christian, one cannot explain your way to God, nor explain anything really.

Simply try to observe and find pleasure in the observation rather than the attempt to explain anything that God does.

Have witnessed the religious behaving poorly and atheists behaving nobly. And a partial reason why joining a physical Church holds no allure for me.

At the end of it all Solomon was quite right, "vanity, vanity, it's all vanity"

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PixieJane
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posted May 19, 2013 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shura:
I have a child and I understand what HSC is saying. Let's differentiate between guiding and controlling? I can't fully control my 6 year old's will, nor should I. I can to some degree control his immediate environment. ie I don't keep a gun in the house; if I did it would be inaccesible to him.

The parent/child analogy works well enough when don't enter our own transgressions into the equation. Our own egos, neuroses, ambitions, fears etc inevitably come into play and so we parent in error. The Almighty does not.


Ok, but just for the record then I think this is just preaching to the choir who already believe the Almighty is good & perfect and use circular reasoning to come to that conclusion (dismissing any actual concept of parenting that would prevent reaching that circular conclusion by arbitrarily saying, "It doesn't count") rather than someone who looks at actual parent/child relationships and is then amazed that someone would say we should abandon them to their own devices as God/dess does us. You say you can control your child's environment and do so, but God (as defined in this thread) does not for anyone of any age, at least not that I can see, and so therefore the analogy doesn't work for me. God doesn't even provide food (at least not for the vast majority of people, and it's millions of children who die of starvation each year and I doubt they're turning their nose up at mana from heaven or food sent by ravens), but parents DO feed their children (at least most do, and it's considered a crime not to). So if preaching to the choir then well and good, but if trying to influence other people not already in the choir then the thoughts shared in the OP definitely need work.

I personally don't know what the nature of God/dess ultimately is, but I do know that a parent who acts as HSC said in the OP is an unfit one and would be guilty of the crime of neglect, even child endangerment (abandoning children without feeding them and leaving them to extremely dangerous situations counts as that which the Almighty does, but parents should not). That may be fine for a deity who wants us to grow up instead of be a child and exercise free will, but it's not fine for a parent to treat a child the same way.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted May 19, 2013 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I never intended to suggest that Our Father has "abandoned" us, by any means. Having free will does not leave us at the mercy of malevolent forces, but at liberty to choose between the forces of good and evil. God has provided us with more than enough assistance -- he has made his position clear enough, and those who honestly seek further clarification know the way to go. Peace and love will lead us to him, and he is continually dropping subtle and not-so-subtle reminders to that end. If we choose to identify with egoic energies, that is our own fault. We are children, but there are some things of which we cannot plead ignorance.

Shura's right; I've moved well beyond the literal reading of world scriptures, and the Bible is no exception. Nevertheless, however often I clarify my position, folks who are more interested in finding fault than in seeing me will continue to saddle me with fundamentalist notions of Christianity which they themselves have difficulty setting down. They don't seem to grasp that it is not their place to tell me what I believe, or should believe (as a self-proclaimed Christian).

While I'm not so sure that God created the earth as we know it, I do think he knows how to make the best possible use of all things (which does not exclude the destruction or transformation of those things -- i.e. "they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks").

I agree with much of what Padre wrote. We cannot conceptualize these things in a way that will fully satisfy a spirit intent on rebellion, and to the extent that we can conceptualize them, the intuition of the listener must come cooperatively into play. All analogies have their limits -- otherwise, they would not be analogies! -- and there is no analogy in the world which will not fall apart when we attempt to extend it into perfect alignment. If this is true of simple things, as it most certainly is, then how much more so is this true of transcendental matters? A generous and indulgent spirit must be present in the listener, in order to "go the rest of the way". While the more literal and cynical minded among us will inevitably view this as a cop-out, the fact is that their own motivations prevent them from reading the spirit which moves between the lines.

"Any reader who is looking for a doctrine in it is bound to be disappointed; and a reader who wants to remain passive and inert is bound to feel empty and let down. These readers must say that I really say nothing. What does not happen in their case is what I have called 'the beating of the other wing', which is necessary if that which is said in the text (as the beating of one wing) is to achieve the fulfillment of its meaning and soar up."
~ Karl Jaspers

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Padre35
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posted May 19, 2013 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Goodness yes, God does control the environment, via covenant.

Think of it this way, everyone breathes air, drinks water, and takes some sort of nutrition just to live, why is it a given those things will always be there for mankind?

There are none, consider that the Sahara was once a massive, lush, rainforest and savannah area, now it is a vast sea of sand.

In the 20's during the stock market crash, the wealthy, who were quite proud of their riches, literally flung themselves out of windows when their wealth vanished, others literally went down on the street and started selling apples for a nickel a piece.

On and on it goes, yet mankind just assumes "as it is, it always shall be".

No, not at all.

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PixieJane
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posted May 19, 2013 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Taking another look at the OP, I think this might clarify what was intended to be conveyed:

Specify that this is strictly SPIRITUAL, that is God is more of an available haven of tranquility that can even bestow stoicism...but could become parental if one looked for inspiration in such a concept. I recall someone once saying that humanity might not ever reach the stars but we're at our most amazing when we try.

Learning the most painful lessons because they're the most beautiful sounds barbaric when dealing with parent/child, but perhaps this was meant instead:

But the important part is that God didn't give them up to that (in the same way a parent might throw a child into shark infested waters and shout for them to swim), instead God was someone who offered refuge to those who found Him/Her. (Perhaps Peter Pan would be a better metaphor? )

If you want to use analogies for god then perhaps traditional polytheism (using various gods to represent various aspects of the One God/dess) works best as it can show various spiritual realities without the baggage of the real world which can get in the way when trying to communicate to others.

And words like "choosing dependency" sounds like "choosing to make God a crutch." Dependency is bad in my book, it means you can't function and are thus powerless, and many who seek to dominate and abuse go to great lengths to make someone dependent on them, and even a father who does that is not loving. Granted, some people LIKE the idea of being vulnerable slaves (*) but it also works against being eternal children when we're here to embrace the pains of the world to grow from the most beautiful lessons (IOW, to grow up, not be eternal children). A loving parent would, I think, WANT his or her children to become adults rather than forever clinging behind him or to her skirts. Of course it doesn't mean we'd "grow up" all in one physical incarnation, but it would help some of us to see it better if seen as a means to maturity rather than surrender...even most children dream of the day when they're adults rather than wishing they could be children forever.

(*I've known people in the S&M subculture, and interesting enough one gay Dom even had women who knew he was gay want to give him a "total power exchange" in which they were his slaves 24/7, which in effect would make them his little girls and him their father figure as there'd be no sex involved. And perhaps that's the real appeal of S&M, not sex or taboo, but a desire run away from adult responsibilities and let someone else take care of you in exchange for total submission. In any case I know reading the last 2 lines in the OP did make me think of that again.)

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PixieJane
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posted May 19, 2013 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:

Goodness yes, God does control the environment, via covenant.

No, that would be people claiming to speak for God/dess, some well meaning and some not.

I also liked what someone said about religion being "fossilized spirituality" and spirituality was to be experienced individually (much as HSC seems to encourage) but religion was how others were inspired by what were supposed to be individual experiences & visions and then adapted for others to conform to...and sooner or later adapted to fit someone's desire for material power and/or greed. Even when truly inspired by divine forces it's still imperfect humanity who defines the so-called covenant, not God.

And it also assumes God is honest and good when we can't really be sure that's the case. Maybe we're cows and we're given hardship (and insane doctrines) so we'll cry out to God (or a god), perhaps with a feeling of love to draw victims further in (like how some bugs are drawn to the sweet smells of a venus flytrap) and that prayer, fear, faith is power that a God can harvest for its own purposes & benefits. We really wouldn't know.

ETA: And btw, God "via covenant" reminds me of this vid (less than a minute) that about made me about fall out of my chair from laughing so hard when I first discovered it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpRbtq2e0S0

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Padre35
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posted May 19, 2013 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


Good?

That is a human concept, what would they do with the Divine? Would ones concept of "good' include having ones son tortured and suffer a miserable death?

As I've read "the same sun shines on the just and the unjust".

Mankind in our arrogance is a mystery to me.

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PixieJane
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posted May 19, 2013 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're a very unusual Christian, Padre.

But I've always been a fan of apophatic theology myself.

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Padre35
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posted May 19, 2013 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

To a point, such an approach could be as dark as the total Elect approach, there is only the Elect and everyone else..you are outta luck, tares as it were.

I've been delightfully free from the brick and mortar congregational experience which has led to..*gasp* thinking for myself and finding a path. No hijacking by either a mainline denomination or yet another fundraiser for Israel etc.

For example, I agree with some of the OT precepts, like working 6 days, the time value of money etc as they are simple, practical, and applicable by anyone.

BUT I also have found prayer works, and sometimes when one is in a bad way, unexpected help comes along. Which means it is not a cold, indifferent universe.

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T
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posted May 20, 2013 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*edited to say

I don't like the idea that we are 'children' of God or anyone (human) anymore. I think if you were born here, it's almost like you bought a ticket here beforehand and everyone is on their own from the beginning w/o really realizing it.

The spiritual/God stuff makes me sick to my stomach now. I've nothing against anyone who'd drunk with that drink, but I cannot stomach any of it anymore.

And don't say "i'm mad at God for not fulfilling my wishes. " or something like that.

How can I be mad at something I don't think exists? So, I'm not being that 'spoilt child' and disgruntled that I havent 'gotten my way' or whatever'.

I've just come to the point where I won't be fooled anymore and am just living. It's rather freeing and I'm having an easy time adjusting.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted May 21, 2013 04:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Faith in God was good enough for thousands of the most highly evolved mystics in all ages; thousands of wonder-working "saints", who served as models of courage, humility, and goodwill. I may be arrogant, but I'm not so blind as to look contemptuously upon a faith which has consistently served as the primary source of inspiration and consolation to the most elevated souls on our planet. On the contrary, I choose to learn from them, and from the One who taught them. If Francis of Assisi was a sucker, then, man, I sure would like to be one, too.

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Padre35
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posted May 21, 2013 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by T:
*edited to say

I don't like the idea that we are 'children' of God or anyone (human) anymore. I think if you were born here, it's almost like you bought a ticket here beforehand and everyone is on their own from the beginning w/o really realizing it.

The spiritual/God stuff makes me sick to my stomach now. I've nothing against anyone who'd drunk with that drink, but I cannot stomach any of it anymore.

And don't say "i'm mad at God for not fulfilling my wishes. " or something like that.

How can I be mad at something I don't think exists? So, I'm not being that 'spoilt child' and disgruntled that I havent 'gotten my way' or whatever'.

I've just come to the point where I won't be fooled anymore and am just living. It's rather freeing and I'm having an easy time adjusting.


Well, to say you are this, or you are that, would be presumptuous.

Will say disillusionment is a gift, it allows for self examination of everything with a critical eye and a willingness to test what is and what was offered by others.

Also will say mankind has two choices, build on rock, or build on sand, that choice has always been ours to make.

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