posted June 08, 2013 12:36 PM            

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The Hell belief retards morality, even apart from the danger of perverting it as I've just described. It keeps people in the earliest stage of moral development: doing the "right" thing because they fear punishment of Hell if they don't. If you think that, you will never get to the point of doing what is right for its own sake. You won't have the luxury for that! And you will never come to trust your own moral judgment--because there is no margin for error, Hell being the consequence of a mistake.

So you'll play it safe and play by the rules that the Hell-monger gives you. You know, the Grand Inquisitor. God becomes a pedantic teacher: you don't want to get an F, so you stick to rote memorization, and forget about creative thinking of your own. If Hell awaits you, you'd be a fool to do it any other way. For this reason, Kant correctly saw that a belief in Hell does not promote moral character but instead must always undermine it.

Hell's Ramparts Rebuilt

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posted June 13, 2013 05:20 PM            

I wasn`t too familiar with Immanuel Kant so thanks for the intro.

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He also said that using reason without applying it to experience only leads to theoretical illusions.

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posted June 13, 2013 07:47 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I finally read Hells Rampart Rebuilt. I`m not a fan of Universalism but I beycha Lexx will like the article!

I wasn`t too familiar with Immanuel Kant so thanks for the intro.

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posted June 13, 2013 08:15 PM            

I simply felt Kant made quite an interesting philosophical observation on the possible effects of such on morality -shrugs-

Equally so, a belief in being saved/redeemed can be just as morally detrimental in my view

posted June 14, 2013 12:33 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I liked it, and I thought it was a very valid and important point. I ignored the religious part, it's irrelevant to me, and approve the point of the message that fear of hell does more harm than good.

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posted June 14, 2013 08:08 AM            

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Not a fan of Universalism either.
I looked into it some 3 decades ago.

Universalism is not my cup of tea.

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Lexx, I was looking more at his discussion of God and hell than UU in general.

I thought of some of your works when I read this

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First, and most importantly, believers in Hell, by ascribing cruelty to God (he is willing, they say, to torture people forever and this simply because they are infidels) are redefining their notion of morality so as to make "goodness" compatible with cruelty and torture! If your God is your moral standard, and it must be, and your God tortures unbelievers in Hell eternally, then your standard of goodness is compatible with the most terrible sadism.

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posted June 14, 2013 09:14 AM            

#Idon'tknowanythingaboutuniversalism

posted June 14, 2013 10:46 AM            

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Why don't you guys like Universalism?

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There are lots of different types of U-isms, yet they are essentially an all inclusive religion that often still supports the "Salvation" concepts.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism

Universalist writers such as George T. Knight have claimed that Universalism was a widely held view among theologians in Early Christianity,[4] including important figures such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria.

The first undisputed documented appearance of Christian Universalist ideas was in 17th-century England and 18th-century Europe and colonial America. Gerrard Winstanley (England, 1648), Richard Coppin (England, 1652), Jane Leade (England, 1697), and George de Benneville (France and America, 18th century) taught that God would grant all human beings salvation. People teaching this doctrine in America became known as Universalists.[7]

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Its still a theistic system, that is passing the buck to the invisible man.

posted June 14, 2013 11:36 AM            

I'd looked into my local UU congregations ( http://www.accotinkuuc.org/ or http://uucf.org/ , maybe http://www.bruu.org/ ) mostly because my eldest has had a lot of religious questions lately and I don't want her to fall in with fundies - she's already flirted with it a bit and she leans towards an absolutist mindset as it is (Taurus with an Aries Merc).

I know that at least one (Accotink) explitely welcomes Atheists and Agnostics and is more humanist.

In this area, anyway, that seems to be what they tend towards (from those I know who go to Unitarian services) - humanist and new-agey hang-out, networking, and service arms.

...mostly just flirting with the idea so far, though.

posted June 14, 2013 02:16 PM            

Just from observation, not having gone.
Maybe they have you drink a secret Kool-Aid after 3 services or something.

posted June 14, 2013 04:53 PM            

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Seriously, though, in this area anyway, it's kind of where new agers, agnostics, and atheists go on Sundays once they have kids so that their children don't start going to Baptist services

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We are veering off topic, but I don't really mind...

Even though I myself am an Atheist, I would never employ such methods of pointing out to my children the problems with Theism...

However I can understand why some Atheists parents would do such. Yet is indoctrinating kids into Atheism in an almost "fundamentalist way", really any different than other fundamentalist religious mentalities?

I cant say, because I don't know if that is actually happening in those situations, but I can see how it "could" develop

In my view the institutionalizing of any concept can lead to severe problems with "Group Think".

posted June 14, 2013 06:31 PM            

That's why (anti-groupthink) I was looking at the UU churches.
From what I understand, kids there are educated about all religions and faiths and encourage to make up their own minds - or keep searching.

Anyway, perhaps not the right path for everyone, but my eldest is both really prone towards rigid thinking + finds a lot of meaning in groups and group interaction (almost all of her planets in her chart are above the horizon and her Moon, Mars, and Venus are all in the 11th - not that I'm saying that that "makes" her, just using that as explanatory short hand as the descriptions for those ring true to her personality).

My middle child's completely different - a Taurus, too, but with a Pisces Moon and almost everything below the horizon.
Chick cried when I brought her to her first (several) group soccer practices because of all the people and commotion.
She'll probably prefer discussion and debate with a healthy dose of independent reading and contemplation as she gets older.
I'm also fairly sure that she digs girls and would like to keep her as far away as humanly possible from those who would tell her that she's wrong or evil for being who she is, at least until she's old enough to really fight back.
(With a Pisces Moon and stellium in the 4th, that'll be when she's 35 )

Back on topic: I agree with the basic premise of the original quote.
"Hell" has always seemed to immature to me, a threatened long punishment and the ultimate room for the prince of petulant children.
Don't act up, or the same will happen to you!
Forget the intrinsic good borne from caring for one's fellow man, life, and creation.

posted June 14, 2013 09:19 PM            

Both churches I visited took pride in someone important in their UU tradition for opposing the Nazis and helping with the underground railroad and are inspired to take similar action (typically liberal, but not always) today. Generally speaking, the message that united them that I got was that rigid beliefs and well defined canon produced a docile, weak-minded population and wealthy clergy, and that in actuality the God/dess didn't care about worship (but wanted to express Itself and Its love through people actively overcoming their more base side of greed, etc) and the gods help those who help themselves, and instead of praying for the hungry you should feed them instead.

posted June 16, 2013 08:56 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I liked it, and I thought it was a very valid and important point. I ignored the religious part, it's irrelevant to me, and [b]approve the point of the message that fear of hell does more harm than good

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Indeed and as a Christian, I note the Christ never once threatened hell fire to sinners . Thats a misnomer of the Christian Faith, of course, as I see it or have Faith in it..