posted August 07, 2013 05:24 AM            

I have been told by many here and or heard that some folks hate me because they feel I hate them because of their god/beliefs/religions (mostly by private message/e-mail)
when in truth, my postings about evil done in the name of any gods and any religions
has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE'S FAITH OR GODS UNLESS YOU ARE ONE OF THE EXTREMISTS.
Geez even the titles of my threads offend and hurt people who are not the bad ones I am speaking out against.
(If the shoe doesn't fit you then please don't wear it)
Why is it that folks seem to believe that I have no right to speak out against such injustices and abuses just because
SOME PEOPLE HERE AT LL BELONG TO THE SAME RELIGIONS AS THE RABID EXTREMISTS TYPES?
>>>I WOULD THINK YOU GOOD KIND FOLKS
OF ANY FAITH
WHO BELIEVE IN LOVE FOR ALL HUMANITY;
WOULD WANT TO SPEAK OUT
AGAINST HATERS
WHO GIVE YOUR FAITHS A BAD REPUTATION.
Well anyhow;
I DO NOT HATE PEOPLE HERE WHO PRACTICE THEIR FAITHS WITH LOVE.

Rant over,
Please no one bash me for this thread.
I am very sincerely trying my best with good intentions to negotiate and not upset folks.
And again.....my using caps is to make things clear
and not to yell.
Just my style.
Sorry if I have offended anyone yet again for that or any other reason here on this thread.
Well here is the other forum description:

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Aquarius Rising
This Forum celebrates diversity in all its manifestations; may the Aquarian Age bring equality to everyone, and in its dawn, bring an end to racism, sexism, and discrimination of every type

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posted August 07, 2013 10:27 AM            

And back when I took a very literal view of Freya as a goddess (as opposed to possibly a metaphor/symbol within the Collective Unconscious and/or just one manifestation of the God/dess force, and even possibly just a somewhat bizarre delusion on my part) I met others into the Scandinavian gods (whom I generally call "Heathens" for simplicity sake, as I've met plenty who called themselves that) and had no problems calling the bad apples for what they were. Granted, when someone said we were all Neo-Nazis and white supremacists THEN I took offense, however when some complained of those into Odin, Thor, Freya, etc, having racist tendencies (and a few who truly were white supremacists & neo-nazis) then I commiserated as it was something I didn't like either, and so did many other Heathens. I even refused to join a kindred (think of it as a church) because I never found one I felt comfortable with (though sometimes this was just other details that weren't bad, simply incompatible, and I wished them well despite not wanting to join them).

posted August 07, 2013 10:52 AM            

quote:

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SOME PEOPLE HERE AT LL BELONG TO THE SAME RELIGIONS AS THE RABID EXTREMISTS TYPES?
>>>I WOULD THINK YOU GOOD KIND FOLKS
OF ANY FAITH
WHO BELIEVE IN LOVE FOR ALL HUMANITY;
WOULD WANT TO SPEAK OUT
AGAINST HATERS
WHO GIVE YOUR FAITHS A BAD REPUTATION.
Well anyhow;
I DO NOT HATE PEOPLE HERE WHO PRACTICE THEIR FAITHS WITH LOVE.

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posted August 07, 2013 11:04 AM            

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And I don't understand why one should have to walk around eggshells either. While it's probably a matter of demographics I've heard way more Christians complain about other Christians than I've heard Atheists, Wiccans, and Muslims combined doing the same. Oh, and many anti-Christian jokes I can tell I got from Christians themselves (just as most Wiccan jokes that poke fun at Wiccans will be told by Wiccans, etc).

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Depends on the terrain, imo. There are places on the web or irl where the religious are more likely to be ridiculed, and spots where the agnostics and atheists will be bashed. I see the popular "don't bring Jesus into it, you deluded freak" or "oh no, the Jesus freaks are here" comments all the time.

posted August 07, 2013 11:10 AM            

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Originally posted by shura:
Here in my neck of the woods, advertise your religious beliefs in the public square and you're likely to receive the side eye treatment.

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Just out of curiosity, where is that? Sounds like a town as opposed to an establishment.

posted August 07, 2013 12:23 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
The one problem with that is that it allows them to get away with vicious child abuse (such as empowered by "faith exception laws"), it becomes taboo to talk about a church covering up sexual abuse (and thus aids and abets such abuse), and the like. When evil is being done then it needs to be addressed.

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I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. The one problem with what? When (and why) did we jump to sex abuse cases?

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Btw, plenty of Christians consider it a duty to admonish others (even Biblical like 2 Timothy 4:2) when they're acting out in error or otherwise ungodly (which some would call unloving) ways, and of course they're to treat others as they want to be treated, so they should be fine with being admonished when they need it.

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I'm sure those sorts exist, although I haven't personally met any. The most fanatical, for lack of a better description, Christian I've known irl is a member of the Catholic church. She discusses her beliefs openly which is seen by most as declasse, and tends to makes people feel uncomfortable with the "Jesus talk", but I've never seen her attack anyone.

posted August 07, 2013 12:49 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Just out of curiosity, where is that? Sounds like a town as opposed to an establishment.

I have a hard time imagining it's anywhere in the USA (save very rare spots, like West Hollywood), unless you're like Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or SDA (or even not Biblical at all), or if you get on a street corner to preach with a bullhorn (or worse, wake people up in the morning by knocking on their door). Hmm, not sure if that counts because Christians seem to be the most likely to take exception to them.

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I live in New England.

My own belief is that religion should be discussed among friends or in a mutually agreed upon setting such as this one. It is a highly personal and often volatile subject which does not belong in the public square. Small example: while waiting in line at a local store earlier this year, a young woman walked past wearing an anti choice tshirt. It was surprisingly blunt, with a pic of an fetus, a Biblical quotation, and whatnot. Really not something that should be paraded around in public. Eye rolls and sighs by everyone else in line. Had this been a bible belt store, I suspect she would have been greeted with applause. Also, I recall a local church was recently denied permission to enter an anti choice float in one of the local 4th of July parades. It's just not an appropriate venue. Old Yankee/wasp values, I suppose.

Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are Christian last I knew. We have a small, quiet contingent of Jehovah Witnesses here. On the occassion I've spoken with them they were perfectly pleasant. When a family member sold their church a bus, a small group of church leaders came by the house to inspect it. No heavy handed proselytizing at all. When the transaction was complete, the church members offered one of those booklets they leave at the door. Said family member took it, smiled, said thank you, and that was that. Very nice people, in fact.

I prefer to approach people as individuals.

posted August 07, 2013 01:25 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
The one problem with what? When (and why) did we jump to sex abuse cases?

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The one problem with BEING SILENT about evil. Lexx isn't here to talk about "oh, them fundies say mean things, I don't like them." As the TITLE says, it's about things like "social injustice." She hasn't clarified yet so I don't know exactly what she means. She often posts about things like child abuse which is a very serious problem, and the reason it's so serious is because it's not something people are supposed to talk about.

It gets so bad that, as just one example, kids reported horrible abuse at a Christian home for girls, but because it was "religious" then religious exemption laws allowed it...the only way the state could intervene is if they believe such abuse is CURRENTLY going on, which means it has to be reported from within...and the kids aren't allowed to communicate so it never gets reported, and after the fact doesn't cut it. This is just one example. Have you heard of it? If you haven't then that's probably because people believe that we shouldn't talk about the bad of religion. And who does that conditioning serve? It doesn't serve the kids, that's for sure. It serves the abusers, which is why they promote the idea, and that means more kids will be harmed, even destroyed, because we're not supposed to talk about it.

That said, maybe it shouldn't be discussed in DD (don't know), and that's what Lexx is asking.

posted August 07, 2013 02:14 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Shura...I think you're reading a lot into what was said by me and Lexx both that wasn't what was intended because you're not making sense to me! I'm not going into that, however, I'm just throwing that out there. That said...

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I became a member of this group a few years before Lexx (then Fayte) began posting. After many years reading her posts, and dozens of one on one conversations with her, I'm fairly cognizant of her views regarding religious and spiritual matters. I don't claim to know lexx inside and out, but I do get the gist, so to speak.

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The one problem with BEING SILENT about evil. Lexx isn't here to talk about "oh, them fundies say mean things, I don't like them." As the TITLE says, it's about things like "social injustice."

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It is not a thread about social injustice. It is a thread considering where those threads concerning social injustice should be placed. I gave my opinion. I then commented on a specific excerpt taken from her post, which I quoted. Again:

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SOME PEOPLE HERE AT LL BELONG TO THE SAME RELIGIONS AS THE RABID EXTREMISTS TYPES?
>>>I WOULD THINK YOU GOOD KIND FOLKS
OF ANY FAITH
WHO BELIEVE IN LOVE FOR ALL HUMANITY;
WOULD WANT TO SPEAK OUT
AGAINST HATERS
WHO GIVE YOUR FAITHS A BAD REPUTATION.
Well anyhow;
I DO NOT HATE PEOPLE HERE WHO PRACTICE THEIR FAITHS WITH LOVE.

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And again, my response being that the issue is not black and white. Ridiculing or castigating any religious order is meeting hate and fear with more hate and fear. Counterproductive.

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She hasn't clarified yet so I don't know exactly what she means. She often posts about things like child abuse which is a very serious problem, and the reason it's so serious is because it's not something people are supposed to talk about.

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I disagree. Child abuse has long been on the national agenda. It is a popular talking point. I can hardly read or watch the news without being informed of another case of child abuse. Government agents have been given increasingly greater authority to inspect parents and household situations where abuse has been suggested. Child abuse is no longer a taboo subject among the general population.

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It gets so bad that, as just one example, kids reported horrible abuse at a Christian home for girls, but because it was "religious" then religious exemption laws allowed it...the only way the state could intervene is if they believe such abuse is CURRENTLY going on, which means it has to be reported from within...and the kids aren't allowed to communicate so it never gets reported, and after the fact doesn't cut it. This is just one example. Have you heard of it? If you haven't then that's probably because people believe that we shouldn't talk about the bad of religion. And who does that conditioning serve? It doesn't serve the kids, that's for sure. It serves the abusers, which is why they promote the idea, and that means more kids will be harmed, even destroyed, because we're not supposed to talk about it.

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pop quiz? I know of several. New Beginnings?

On the subject of being silent in the face of evil: I have not suggested we be silent on the issue of social injustice. I have not spent one day of my adult life being silent about social injustice in any form. If you are suggesting that religion is inherently evil, then, yes, I would disagree with that. A religious life alone neither suggests an evil character nor compels one to evil deeds. On a personal note, my father was abusive. The abuse began when he was an avowed atheist and decreased dramatically when he became a follower of Herbert Armstrong/Worldwide Church of Christ. Should that tell me something? He also had black hair and brown eyes. Should I be wary of brown eyed men? What's the litmus test here? Make it easy for me.

posted August 07, 2013 02:59 PM            

It isn`t the subject matter but rather how it is approached and discussed?
Yes that is a serious question not rhetorical.

Social injustices are important issues and should be kept in the publics eye.

When one takes a social injustice,bigotry et al and makes it personalized war fare, the issue gets turned around .

Religious injustices are real, they harm and can honestly be discussed here. As long as we don`t post with a personalized agenda or attempt to own the topic it can be openly discussed with out anyone feeling demonized.

Also internet etiquette is fairly standard. Caps are shouting to most. Perhaps bold or italics could suffice instead?

lexx, I am not offended by your caps, disclaimers tacked on, or your rants about your personal abuse and the hatred you feel for it or them . That`s me but others may
see it as a personal agenda , especially in light of what has occurred here recently.

PJ, we shouldn`t have to walk on egg shells and most of us don`t. Yet we should allow a balance in conversation. The poster or their faith should never be attacked. Umpteen thumbs down in a thread shows distaste or disgust and the thread starts to look aggressive.

We just need to keep in mind there are sensitive souls here and we don`t need to be aggressive. That imho is courtesy, not walking on egg shells.

Our responsibility is to avert aggressive posters not dive in and join the fray.

This is not to say any one person here does it; just a reminder for all who are passionate and verbal.

posted August 07, 2013 04:12 PM            

One, child abuse is talked about...child abuse done by religious authorities is not (even the few exceptions meet a lot of resistance). I gave an example (I'd look up the actual CNN report that describes it again, but would it make a difference? I've shared it here before and it just gets flushed down the memory hole and ignored.) If the parents did it, then sure, they'd risk prison, but if a church group does it, then no, the laws protect them from investigation, save in the exception I described which is about impossible to happen.

Furthermore, Lexx didn't make it "black and white" she said she was against the bad of religion, not the loving, and yet you're claiming she's attacking the religion itself? Even when she's made threads positive as well?

Honestly, I'm starting to think you're skimming posts instead of reading them...and another example of why I'm suspecting that, you left important context out of what she quoted before you misinterpreted:

quote:

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Originally posted by shura:
And again, my response being that the issue is not black and white. Ridiculing or castigating any religious order is meeting hate and fear with more hate and fear. Counterproductive.

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Let's put that one line you cut out and put it back in where it belongs:

(If the shoe doesn't fit you then please don't wear it)
Why is it that folks seem to believe that I have no right to speak out against such injustices and abuses just because

When that's added to this:

quote:

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SOME PEOPLE HERE AT LL BELONG TO THE SAME RELIGIONS AS THE RABID EXTREMISTS TYPES?
>>>I WOULD THINK YOU GOOD KIND FOLKS
OF ANY FAITH
WHO BELIEVE IN LOVE FOR ALL HUMANITY;
WOULD WANT TO SPEAK OUT
AGAINST HATERS
WHO GIVE YOUR FAITHS A BAD REPUTATION.
Well anyhow;
I DO NOT HATE PEOPLE HERE WHO PRACTICE THEIR FAITHS WITH LOVE.

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posted August 07, 2013 04:22 PM            

And Lexx to me looks like she's trying to show she realizes that as well and focus strictly on the negative, and yet it appears a few pretend she's not doing that, ignoring her balance to try to make her come off as being aggressive and making blanket statements when she worked hard to show she was not. To me that means promoting an atmosphere of walking on eggshells rather than balance, especially when the standards applied to her aren't applied equally to others.

And because of that she feels she's not being heard, rightly feels misunderstood and as a result she uses all caps in the vain hopes that THIS time they pay attention.

posted August 07, 2013 04:41 PM            

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you're pretending she's painting everyone with the same brush when she's not.

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This isn`t necessarily about lexx. It is about productive topics that don`t become war fare.

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To me that means promoting an atmosphere of walking on eggshells rather than balance.

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Understandable but please

answer a question. Since I have seen these very subjects discussed in an open manner with out a war developing,why do so many of these posts/threads in question become aggressive?

posted August 07, 2013 04:44 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
Since I have seen the these very subjects discussed in an open manner with out a war developing,why do so many of these posts/threads in question become aggressive?

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Because people misunderstood what's being said. I admit Lexx taking a long time to make her point (and making it over & over) and with a lot of caps can come off as aggressive, but given that people accuse her unjustly of sentiments she's trying to show she doesn't have and yet that attempt gets ignored I also understand why she does it.

posted August 07, 2013 04:51 PM            

quote:

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Because people misunderstood what's being said. I admit Lexx taking a long time to make her point (and making it over & over) and with a lot of caps can come off as aggressive, but given that people accuse her unjustly of sentiments she's trying to show she doesn't have and yet that attempt gets ignored I also understand why she does it.

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Again,in my opinion, how we approach the subject factors what will follow.

posted August 07, 2013 06:09 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Shura, you've really gotten it wrong.

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If that be case, I'll make an additional effort to better grasp your point. I'm already comfortable and familiar with Lexx's.

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One, child abuse is talked about...child abuse done by religious authorities is not (even the few exceptions meet a lot of resistance). I gave an example (I'd look up the actual CNN report that describes it again, but would it make a difference? I've shared it here before and it just gets flushed down the memory hole and ignored.)

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If there is a CNN report, then the matter is being discussed. And by a major mainstream news outlet, no less. Further, Catholic sex scandals have made the front pages of everything from the Washington Post to Time magazine. The issue of children's 'tough love' camps (often but not always run by fundies) you've raised have been in the news since the 90s, at least. There was even a congressional hearing in 07.

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If the parents did it, then sure, they'd risk prison, but if a church group does it, then no, the laws protect them from investigation, save in the exception I described which is about impossible to happen.

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Indeed. Any organization will have the added protection of numbers and money, often of the law. This applies to all corporations - commercial, religious, you name it. Groups rally round the flag, circle the wagons. they are simply a tougher nut to crack.

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Furthermore, Lexx didn't make it "black and white" she said she was against the bad of religion, not the loving, and yet you're claiming she's attacking the religion itself? Even when she's made threads positive as well?

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I haven't accused Lexx of a black and white mentality regarding individuals, as I know she doesn't possess this. I'm considering general approach and what best fits the forum.

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Honestly, I'm starting to think you're skimming posts instead of reading them...

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I'm not sure this was a necessary comment.

If I'm inclined to respond to a post, you can trust I've read first. In fact, I will generally read it multiple times. I can't imagine bothering myself to answer a post I couldn't be bothered to read unless I was looking for an argument.

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Then she's not making the issue black & white. Heck, even with the limited part you cut and pasted it's pretty obvious to me she's not. Over and over again she's wanting to connect with people who attack her instead of the people she's describing. She's not attacking you or all Christians she talks about the bad apples but people act as if she's talking about them personally despite her many attempts (one of which you quoted), and that's obvious to me, which is why she's become driven to start "yelling" because you're putting words into her mouth she's not saying by ignoring not only the context but even her plain spoken words as if she'd something very different (and the more it happens the more she "yells" trying to get a point across that simply will not be accepted as it makes people uncomfortable). [/b]

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Your defense of Lexx is admirable. I appreciate that. Still, you need not defend Lexx from me because I won't attack her. I may question, but I will not attack. I've interacted with Lexx for many years and I know her to have a good and sensitive heart. Nothing she has said here offends me and I in no way feel she hates me for my religious views. I trust she knows I don't hate her for her lack thereof.

posted August 07, 2013 06:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Because people misunderstood what's being said. I admit Lexx taking a long time to make her point (and making it over & over) and with a lot of caps can come off as aggressive, but given that people accuse her unjustly of sentiments she's trying to show she doesn't have and yet that attempt gets ignored I also understand why she does it.

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PS.
I have not read most the replies yet.

posted August 07, 2013 06:51 PM            

It is not about a single poster, it is about the closed threads and aggression of late.

We need to improve the health of Divine Diversities before it reachs critical mass again.

The subjects are not in question, behaviors are. It was shut down once because of the poor behaviors and I certainly don`t want it to go there again. I would assume no one else here does either.

No one is a victim, no one is right or wrong. As adults we know what is proper for this forum and we need to work from there.

Find causation and we can find the cure. What would you as an individual like to see here?

posted August 07, 2013 07:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
Testing, tried posting long post and it keeps bombing.

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Try using less or no Smilies, it should work.

posted August 07, 2013 07:20 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Juni, I realize she gets passionate about this, but she's trying to show she realizes there are bad and good and yet you're pretending she's painting everyone with the same brush when she's not. Pressuring her to stop isn't balance, it's promoting an atmosphere of walking on eggshells by bringing up uncomfortable truths as being "aggressive" and "rude." Maybe if I'd ever felt attacked when someone talked about the bad apples who shared my beliefs then I'd understand more, but I don't, if anything I feel even more rankled by it than they do. And I've met Christians the same as me and who are quick to talk like Lexx (not about themselves, of course, but the bad apples who make them look bad, just like Lexx mentions above), so I don't understand what the problem is.

And Lexx to me looks like she's trying to show she realizes that as well and focus strictly on the negative, and yet it appears a few pretend she's not doing that, ignoring her balance to try to make her come off as being aggressive and making blanket statements when she worked hard to show she was not. To me that means promoting an atmosphere of walking on eggshells rather than balance, especially when the standards applied to her aren't applied equally to others.

And because of that she feels she's not being heard, rightly feels misunderstood and as a result she uses all caps in the vain hopes that THIS time they pay attention.

Yes, there are sensitive people here...Lexx is one of them.

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