posted June 24, 2014 11:36 AM            

traditional witchcraft is a form of witchcraft with a focus on the land, the ancestors, the genius loci and folk magic. it is ecstatic, involving practices such as hedgeriding and, it is influenced by old folklore, traditions and customs.
the rituals are usually performed outdoors and are of a spontaneous nature.

there is a strong emphasis in working with the ancestors or the mighty dead.
also, walking between the worlds, traveling to the underworld, trance, hedgeriding, flying to the sabbat, as a way to receive magical gnosis.
the spirits in traditional witchcraft tend to be of a chthonic nature.
the magic, being, folk magic is practical and very hands-on, with materials that are commonly available, and very much inspired by old practices. e.g. using poppets, herbs, making salves, flying ointments, talismans....

some traditional witchcraft traditions have a strong luciferian current, where lucifer is not seen as a negative entity but as a promethean figure.

tools, celebrations and so on, this all depends on the traditional witch or group. when it comes to ethics, the traditional witch is responsible for his or her actions, thus, hexing/cursing is justified if needed.

contrary to popular belief, traditional witchcraft is not thousands of years old, however, there was and there is witchcraft before Wicca.
for more info, children of cain by howard, doreen valiente's rebirth of witchcraft and works by philip hesselton, hutton's triumph of the moon

some traditional witchcraft groups:
feri witchcraft: american, formed in the 1940s by victor and cora anderson
cochrane's craft: british, formed in the 1960s by robert cochrane
sabbatic craft,
among others.....

posted June 24, 2014 09:34 PM            

I especially love the symbols of the serpent (wisdom, rebirth, and as you say, cthonic), the apple (also rebirth, falls into the ground, decays, grown another tree, and if you cut it just right then sometimes the seeds form a perfect pentagram and I read a fascinating article on how the apple tree was the first to be harvested in prehistory which created private property as well as inspiring writing & math and transformed our species as a result), and some of the other symbols.

I also find it interesting that sometimes the sun is male and sometimes female, but every myth I recall offhand (at least in Western civilization) had the moon to be the opposite gender of the sun, and I get curious how a culture defines these things.

There are all sorts of witchcraft, some of it has been Christianized today but still draws on pagan roots.

posted June 25, 2014 12:00 AM            

quote:

---

I read a fascinating article on how the apple tree was the first to be harvested in prehistory which created private property as well as inspiring writing & math and transformed our species as a result), and some of the other symbols.

---

Got that link handy by any chance?

Also is the Math reference in relation to Newton? Its just that I don't think that actually happened, yet I feel its a powerful symbol in of itself.

Again the idea of an apple bestowing knowledge is reminiscent of the Eden story

Mushrooms too, are just as powerful in esoteric symbolism, not sure how big a deal they are in witchcraft though?

posted June 25, 2014 01:31 AM            

Best I recall it described the nomadic ways of our prehistoric ancestors and that as the ice age ended it became easier to plant so instead of wondering they remained by the groves of tended apple trees that became very important to their religion (I don't recall the author mentioning witchcraft). To measure, calculate, and the like math was likely invented (and that women mostly did it as men remained hunters while this was where women settled to a safe plot of land to raise kids). This led to private property which led to more sophisticated trade and also an easy place to raid which would radically change humanity as writing, more math, competition and raiding, and the like became part of who we are, and expanded to livestock, crops, engineering, etc (this would move math from women to the men as war and wealth determined power and thus became a new form of hunting). As this typically raised standards of living and made life easier more adopted it (though many nomadic cultures remained for thousands of years, though many loved to raid cities if they could mix with them as in Eurasia). IOW, it was a prehistoric singularity.

IIRC, it also pointed out how the Bible never mentioned an apple, but it had once been truly magical so that the myths traveled down through the years and the fruit Eve was said to have had was the apple despite that the Bible never said that or that people kept eating apples, and in some cultures "apple" was sometimes a generic word for "food" as it was so central to them. (It also explored the role of apples common in other ancient mythologies as well--though I think the author forgot to mention the Golden Apple of Discord.)

posted June 25, 2014 02:21 AM            

quote:

---

No link that I could find, it was in a book that a witch gave me to read. It read like a college thesis and though it wasn't that long I was like "whoa." (This article didn't include the bit about the seeds nor how it relates to witchcraft, but the witch who gave it to me saw Eve as, well, Prometheus, even if other witches preferred Lilith.)

---

Ahh no problem, but thanks for trying anyhow

Also thanks for writing a synopsis of the articles contents.

I'm just wondering though was it more a working hypothesis on the part of the author, or did they have some strong evidence that led them to such conclusions.

The theory in of itself seems quite plausible to me, yet I'm unwilling to jump upon its band wagon unless I could see clearly how one thing led to another in the progression of such a society.

I'm remember listening to a few Terrance McKenna lectures, and some of his ideas about how similar kinds of nomadic tribes came to the position of settling down.

In relation to the property and ownership issues I believe he said it was a result of their society moving away from orgy-type sex, where when the women got pregnant nobody knew who's kids were who's, and the tribe stayed very communal in all things.

But once the tribe started opting for more monogamous type partnerships, they saw the relationship between sex and “their” children, now becoming that couples "property". With ofc one thing leading to another and... well here we are lol

I guess both theories are probably interwoven in such nomadic societies. I wish there was a way to study some actual nomadic tribes in the same way we study the social habits of animals over extended periods of time...

Best get moving into outer-space and find us some M-Class planets with natives to study

posted June 25, 2014 09:17 AM            

Though fun fact, humans aren't the only ones who use shrooms. Reindeer love them, too (and the reason the shamans first started drinking shroom urine was after they got knocked down enough times by reindeer knocking them over to eat the snow). More on shrooms here, which I find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria

posted June 25, 2014 10:45 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:

I also find it interesting that sometimes the sun is male and sometimes female, but every myth I recall offhand (at least in Western civilization) had the moon to be the opposite gender of the sun, and I get curious how a culture defines these things.

---

there are a number of european cultures that have the sun as female and the moon as male, or the sun and moon are female....
the basques considered the sun and the moon as female
you can find sun goddesses among the celts, etruscans, and so on...
in reality, there is a lot that can be learned about ancient europe through books on history and anthropology
unfortunately, nowadays, people rather read the pop pagan/wiccan 101 books that pack and water down everything to one single category aka. gender polarity with sun (male) and moon (female).
in reality, pagan cultures were very diverse and not a monolith.

quote:

---

There are all sorts of witchcraft, some of it has been Christianized today but still draws on pagan roots.

---

traditional witchcraft is not pagan though.
witchcraft is beyond pagan because witches are neither here nor there, but on the edge, adapting their witchcraft regardless of the religions of their surrounding. thus witchcraft is just is; beyond religious categories.
much of traditional witchcraft has elements of heretical christianity, because traditional witchcraft doesnt date roughly before the 17th c.,...and witches, as adaptive as they are, use what works.
thus, it isnt uncommon for traditional witches, some even detest the word witch/witchcraft, to be of dual-faith and to even use psalms among other judeo-christian elements in their workings, if it works, it is good. there is nothing wrong with christianity because again, witchcraft is not a religion and it employs what works. and going along with this, one can be a satanic witch or even an atheist witch.

as to witchcraft dating back to ancient pagan times. vodou also dates back to ancient times, that doesnt mean it is witchcraft.
let us remember that pagans had a name for their own religions and it wasnt witchcraft.
the reason some people continue to perpetuate the witchcraft-pagan connection is due to margaret murray who published "the witch cult of western europe". she theorized that witchcraft was a cult based on a horned god and a mother goddess from ancient pagan times (not possible since pagans are polytheistic), in other words, that witchcraft was this ancient pagan fertility cult. this is the accepted conduct in wicca and neopaganism since gardner thought right in margaret murray’s words and created wicca as a gentle fertility duotheistic religion that would be accepted by the mainstream community, and he accomplished this.

if you like, here is a link on the cultus sabbati, a tradition of trad craft. chumbley had been initiated by traditional witches. http://xoanon.co.uk/cultus-sabbati/

posted June 25, 2014 10:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
I associate shrooms more with (ancient/traditional) shamanism, though there are a lot of similarities between shamanism and witchcraft. Though shrooms also seem important in many religions, including, it would seem, Christianity.

Shamanism also deals a lot with the underworld which would include the snake, etc. Plus the cycles of life and death (and how they're like tides, high & low).

---

there's a very good book called cunning folk and familiar spirits: shamanistic visionary traditions in early modern british witchcraft by wilby....it touches on this topic

posted June 25, 2014 05:17 PM            

quote:

---

PixieJ: I associate shrooms more with (ancient/traditional) shamanism, though there are a lot of similarities between shamanism and witchcraft. Though shrooms also seem important in many religions, including, it would seem, Christianity.

---

I was reading that article, and who should pop up as one of the main references... Terrance McKenna hehe We always seem to be on the same wavelength... I'm wondering now if the essay you read might actually have been by Terrance or his brother hrmmm

You know something I've really been meaning to read but just haven't quite gotten there yet is John M. Allegro's;

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

quote:

---

The book relates the development of language to the development of myths, religions, and cultic practices in world cultures. Allegro believed he could prove, through etymology, that the roots of Christianity, as of many other religions, lay in fertility cults, and that cult practices, such as ingesting visionary plants (or "psychedelics") to perceive the mind of God, persisted into the early Christian era, and to some unspecified extent into the 13th century with reoccurrences in the 18th century and mid-20th century, as he interprets the Plaincourault chapel's fresco to be an accurate depiction of the ritual ingestion of Amanita muscaria as the Eucharist. Allegro argued that Jesus never existed and was a mythological creation of early Christians under the influence of psychoactive mushroom extracts such as psilocybin.[1]

---

My first encounter with this theory was through PKD's The Transmigration of Timothy Archer

Where one of the main characters a “Bishop” is trying to cope with the theological and philosophical implications of the newly discovered Gnostic Zadokite scroll fragments, and ends up ravelling to Israel to investigate whether or not a psychotropic mushroom was associated with the resurrection

Anyone read Allegro's works?

posted June 25, 2014 05:43 PM            

quote:

---

Murray's theory, as she explained in this book and the subsequent The God of the Witches (1933), consists of the following elements:

Until the 17th century there was a religion, much older than Christianity, which all over Western Europe had supporters both among ordinary people and the ruling classes.

• Central to the worship stood a horned god with two faces, known to the Romans as Janus or Dianus. (This cult of Dianus was of the type James Frazer described in detail in “The Golden Bough”).

• The horned god represented the cycle of seasons and harvests. It was believed that he died and periodically returned to life.

• On earth, the horned god was represented by chosen human beings. There were some celebrities among them, such as William Rufus, Thomas Becket, Joan of Arc and Gilles de Rais. They all died a tragic death as a ritual sacrifice to insure the resurrection of the god and the renewal of the earth.

• In the villages the witches meetings were presided by the horned god. Pre-Christian observers of this events might have thought that these witches were worshiping the devil, when in reality they were celebrating the pre-Christian god Dianus.

• The preservation of this ancient religion was entrusted to a variety of indigenous peoples, small in stature, who were driven out from their land with each new invasion. This would also explain the stories about fairies, gnomes and other ‘small people’. These creatures were very shy but were able to pass the knowledge of their religion to ordinary people. The witches were their pupils and thus the heirs of the ancient religion.

• According to Murray, the (local) covens consisted of thirteen members: twelve ordinary men and women, and an officer. All members were required to hold a weekly meeting (named 'esbat' by Murray) and to attend the larger Sabbats.

• There was a strict discipline in the covens, and whoever missed a meeting could be severely punished and was sometimes put to death.

• The organization and structure were so good that Christianity had to wait until the Reformation before getting a stronger grip on the population. A blatant attack on the influential rival was needed, and that occurred with the great witch persecutions.

---

I haven't read that book in quite a long time, but I remember I absolutely loved it hehe

Sounds similar to what you are talking about here

posted June 25, 2014 06:32 PM            

Though I recall this sitch was reversed about a year ago. I answered a question of yours and you replied in an annoyed tone that you already knew that. I now understand your annoyance.

posted June 25, 2014 08:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
@[b]hikoro: Are you familiar with Margaret Murray 's, The Witch-Cult in Western Europe published in 1921

I haven't read that book in quite a long time, but I remember I absolutely loved it hehe

Sounds exactly like what you are talking about here

[/B]

---

hello lei...
yes, i have read it. she has been very much discredited, which makes sense when looking that much of what she wrote contradicts pagan europe, historical witchcraft and old craft covens.
yet, her ideas were adopted by gardner and even other witches started claiming the bogus 'i am hereditary witch' and my family followed something a la murray's ideas.
some people complain about this but, there is always a pseudohistory that accompanies all religions, and in wicca and modern witchcraft, it is the 'old religion' meme influenced by the 'the witch cult' hypothesis.
i think that works like these should be mandatory nonetheless, in order to at least understand the influences behind neopaganism.

going back to traditional witchcraft....
special places: the crossroads, hollows, springs, hills, springs, lakes...and so on
historically, some old spells require going to the crossroads or the cemetery....

or...who wants to talk about flying ointments?