posted April 16, 2009 06:25 PM           

I have a theory on the 4th house, and the 10th house.

Most astrologers will debate on whether it refers to the mother or the father. Some say it is the 'nurturing' parent(mother) due to the cancer/moon/home umbrella, and others say it is the 'hidden' parent(father).

I think the 4th is about strong influences on the mother, and therefore when we're talking about you, the subject of the horoscope, we are looking at usually the influence on the mother by the father or how he impacted the home.

So, basically you will often see the father in the 4th due to what kind of an impression/influence/interaction he had with the mother. This is why it would seem he is hidden.

I think you may find what the mother has experienced by father figures in general because often a woman will choose partners that exemplify character traits of their own father even if the father tends to deny those traits and push other ones forward. So perhaps women choose partners as they truly sense their father is.

Consequently, I think the 10th has the same dilemma and I believe the same goes for it.

The 10th would have to relate to the father(Capricorn/Saturn) however, again, I think we often see the mother due to the impression on the father and how the father related to her or how she impacted him. Because we are talking about angles of the chart that have formed who YOU are, we are seeing what has been your base/nursery(4th), or been your beacon to aspire to or to use to highlight your whole personality(10th).

This is apparent in the way that astrologers will look to the 10th house to see how you were socialised in your formative years. Perhaps not so much in more recent generations, but certainly true for older generations, the mother was the chief socialiser of the child. She was often the one who introduced you to the world whilst accompanying her shopping, visiting, and dealing with the daily interaction with the environment.

Thus, your relationship to your mother is probably more indicative of the 10th, and your relationship to your father the 4th.

However, the 4th, is possibly how we experience home and the 10th perhaps how we experience career, status etc.

Typically though, both apply but I guess it depends on what you are looking for in particular. After all, initially the parents have come together with the same projection/mirror ambiguity with each other. So it makes sense that you will see both in each house. I guess along the same lines as the yin/yang symbol and the snake eating its own tail as true of oppositions in particular.

posted April 16, 2009 07:29 PM         

The two theories are:
1. The 4th is ruled by Mother as Mother is to with the home and this is where we feel snuggly in a very intimate environment. The 10th therefore is the dad as dad is traditionally the one that leads the household and provides rules etc.

2. The 10th is ruled by mum because mum is the major influence in our lives and guides us on our paths to the future, provides discipline etc. Dad is maybe the one who provides the physical home itself (traditionally dad was the breadwinner).

As for my chart, I have Saturn in the 4th and Sun/Merc in the 10th. My mum was the disciplinarian and my dad was the "good guy". My mum was probably closer to me because of the endless discipline and order she placed on me, hence the closer relationship.

If we use the theories above, with the second theory, my mum would be the MC (Cap in my chart) and my Saturn is in the 4th - which indicates that she had more the traditional dad role. My dad would be represented by the IC and my Moon is in Libra on the DC. Yes, I would say that we were partners in crime and we had/have still quite a peaceful relationship.

If the first theory is used, then my mum would be the IC and the 4th has Saturn. Yes she was a discplinarian but I can relate to our situation with the Moon on my DC. I'm sure she's Aries rising and we did a lot of things together around the house. My dad would be the MC and and Saturn is in the 4th for me. He retired when I was quite young and was around a lot in the house. He helped a lot around the house, doing chores, playing handyman etc. My Sun is in the 10th as is my Mercury and him being a Leo, it's fitting. He also is very intelligent and mercurial as well.

For me, the theories work both ways, so I personally am undecided as to which theory is deemed "correct".

posted April 16, 2009 07:30 PM         

for me 4th house cusp is bang on my dad's taurus sun, though most of the house is gemini which would really describe both my parents and the home atmosphere, full of intellectual stimulation and banter, but with my dad's comfortable, taurean warmth too. the 10th, well my mom had late scorp rising! so it is very much her, but my dad had a sag moon so he's there too!!

just for the record i have never been able to form "intimate" relationships with taureans, geminis, scorps OR sags, although i have been friends with all of them, as well as flings, siblings, etc...

posted April 16, 2009 08:52 PM         

I feel that same way about every man is looking for his mother crap too.

any ways...both my father and my maternal grandfather had Moon in Pisces like me.....

I have been involved with Moon in Scorpio women, and my mom has Moon in Scorpio

I do prefer women that are highly sensitive,emotional,intense,passionate, and that's how my mom is....that's how I am....that's how my father was

my mom and I are a lot alike. my stepfather used to tell my mom and I all the time about how much we are alike. It got on our nerves too...especially when my mom and I didn't get along ......because she and I are so alike.....both intense,stubborn,moody,hypersensitive hotheads. hahahahaa

I prefer using 4th house as mother and 10th house as father.

I never knew my father, and so he's hidden any way.

my Saturn is conjunct the Midheaven/oppose my Jupiter-Imum Coeli.

I was raised by my mother and stepfather, and both were strict in their own way. my mom like mother superior, and my stepfather father like drill sargeant.

my retrograde Saturn squares my Moon and quincunx my Sun. That also also could indicate that both my mother and stepfather were strict with me.

in Vedic Astrology in the southern Indian culture, 10th house is the father and 4th house is the mother.

In Vedic Astrology in the northern Indian culture,9th house is father and 4th house is the mother. They view the father as the guru (teacher),and so it's associated with the 9th house.

both cultures use Sun as father and Moon as mother. They don't use Saturn at all for father.

The Saturn as the father is something out of Western Astrology.....probably started with the Psychological Astrology movement.

posted April 16, 2009 08:57 PM           

For instance, historically we would have initially looked to our father to protect us from the elements and threatening outsiders.

Then when we were pregnant, in times when there was no social security, police, health systems, charities, we would have looked to the father of the child to protect us and the child in our vulnerability - a small life draws on our own energy, resources, and safety. Protection and additional provision was necessary. Also, unless we were in a community of women like in some pagan societies - women probably had to be linked to a male for any social standing so that they weren't outcasted.

posted April 16, 2009 09:50 PM           

4th is Father, 10th is Mother.
While having a baby is equal responsibility, the Mother carries the baby and also gets full rights everytime but one in a thousand (I exaggerate) when the breakup happens.

The Mother is the "owner" of the baby. Dont laugh
Ownership is 10th house.

I will try and think up some silly reasons now:

Put Aries on the ASC as it is naturally, with Leo on the 5th house cusp. Start with the Sun on the ASC when some serious shagging happens and the seed is planted.
9-10 months later when the baby is born, the Sun will now meet the 10th house...Mother.

Your 4th house is roots...where you come from. In a standard marriage and what is "the norm," the Woman takes the Mans Surname. His family surname, his roots.

posted April 17, 2009 01:58 AM           

I think the distinguishing point is partners in procreation is what I was referring to - the instinctual drive for men to father a child and women to be mothers - sorry if that offends. I guess gay partners would come under the normal what you are attracted to like any other combos but the point that I was trying to make was that I think like survival, some things may almost have a genetic memory in terms of instinctual drives/selection and we may still retain some pre-disposition to choose our co-parent from the parent types we have closely known.

These days its probably all changing a bit though not because of the gay factor but because we are less dependent on a life partner for survival and the survival of our offspring, family life, and connectedness to society.

So on a spectrum perhaps we would still opt for similarities to one of the parents in gayness.

Social constructs only in terms of what we have known of our own parents not the general stereotypes etc.

posted April 17, 2009 03:20 AM         

My 4th house in Gemini, My father is a Sun/Merc Aquarius, Jupiter in Gem, unsure of his birthtime.
But he is very chatty.
I have Venus and Merc in the 4th House, my dad exemplifies these traits too. Indolent and chatty.

My Mom's 4th House in Pisces, her dad was a creative man but highly abusive, of his wife, drugs, his children, probably had affairs, was in jail often and I think he died of HIV.

My Mom's 10th house in Virgo, her mother worked hard to look after the family, but died young of cancer(and a hard life), on a rocking chair looking at her kids.
Pluto tightly conjuncts her MC in the 9th house.

posted April 17, 2009 03:41 AM         

I can see why 10th could be associated with the mother because the 10th is the house of influence and for alot of people, mom is the most influencial. T

he 4th house and father is still confusing to me...or maybe not. I can definitely see in my own life why he can be 'hidden'. I, personally, am not that close to dad, I still have trouble identifying with his culture and I don't even share his religion. I hope that changes (the culture part) once I go on this family trip with him next year but meh.......

My actual conclusion though, is that the most nurturing parent is ruled by the 4th house. That can be father for a number of people.

posted April 17, 2009 10:13 AM         

My parents are divorced, I grew up with my mother and her family - very unusual people, artistic, extremely freedomloving, who hate to be tied down, even in a home. So, yes, my home life was very much different, without any explicit rules, even excentric. My mother played and still plays very important role in my life. In my home, we never learned how to adjust our erratic behaviour and somehow always remained outsiders

With my father it is totally different situation. He is very ambitious, successful in his job, concerned about his reputation,has wide circle of friends , etc. But he is very generous and loveable - he just wants me to have some security in my life.

BUT : It is actually so that my mom is very controlling ( about my life ). She wants to shape me into something and she does that in a very domineering manner. She is a real drama queen , very passionate,protective but full of love- reminds me of a lionesse. She is definitely
the dominant parent.

My father, on the other hand, is much more cooler concerning matters of life which are important to him but he doesn't make a big scene when things go wrong. He is very interested in esoteric stuff, trying to figure out " the things behind ", higher spheres, etc. Also religous but in an unconventional way. I am influenced by him very much.

So, I don't know what to think about the whole IC - MC thing representing our parents. Who does represent what? I don't think the answer to this is a simple one.At least this is my opinion.

posted April 17, 2009 11:13 AM         

the asteroid,Cynthia(my mother's name) in 10'05 Sagittarius is in my 3rd house conjunct my Imum Coeli in 11'14 Sagittarius. the asteroid,Larry(my father's name,his name was Lawrence,and he was called Larry) is retrograde in 13'36 Gemini in my 10th house conjunct my Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini.

the asteroids, Lawrence in 20'39 Sagittarius and Davida in 20'31 Sagittarius are conjunct in 4th house with only 9 minutes of arc! David was my stepfather's name! My Sun (father) in Scorpio in 2nd semisquare Davida with 11 minutes of arc and Lawrence with 19 minutes of arc.

my stepfather didn't know my mother until 2 years after I was born with my father completely out of the picture before that. How is that for fate and destiny?!!

I think that the 4th house is the domestic environment,roots in general. It is also the past and the personal unconscious. To me, it's the most personal point in the chart.

btw. The Midheaven/Imum Coeli is not viewed as having anything to do with the parents at all in Cosmobiology and Uranian Astrology. It is viewed as the individual,the "I",ego consciousness. They don't use the house systems,and therefore, they don't apply any meaning to 4th and 10th houses.

so how the Midheaven/Imum Coeli is viewed really depends on the astrological system.

Raymond

posted April 17, 2009 09:19 PM           

quote:

---

btw. The Midheaven/Imum Coeli is not viewed as having anything to do with the parents at all in Cosmobiology and Uranian Astrology. It is viewed as the individual,the "I",ego consciousness. They don't use the house systems,and therefore, they don't apply any meaning to 4th and 10th houses.

so how the Midheaven/Imum Coeli is viewed really depends on the astrological system.

---

Not using house systems/houses is just plain wrong, Glaucus.
Cosmo-Uranians are just a bit too Uranian. Even for me.

Whole Sign House System is the one I use.
In my natal, the IC/4th and MC/10th have different signs on the cusp.

When I say 4th is Father and 10th is Mother, I do mean the house cusps and not the IC/MC cusp. Some charts will have the same 4th cusp/IC.

posted April 17, 2009 11:47 PM           

I think all these things can be seriously influenced by the kind of nurturing and reception we have experienced and things like that. It doesn't mean we can't achieve if our parents didn't do much, or if they were oppressive or had poor circumstances, but perhaps our understanding and motivation is coloured by these things and can drive us or inhibit us and all the variations of response around that.

posted April 18, 2009 11:38 AM         

I have no desire to have children and if I do it will be in a long long time and I'll only have one (for the sake of experimenting lol). I have no "instinct" for child rearing. Even with my 5th house Moon.

There's also plenty of women that never knew their fathers.

posted April 18, 2009 03:13 PM           

Leo is on the cusp of the 4th house in my chart, my father's sun sign. Aquarius is on the 10th house cusp, his moon sign & my mother's ascendant. My mother's moon is in cap, maybe that might have something to do with the 10th? Also, my moon is very close to my north node.. NN in 10th, 21 degrees, Moon in 11th Pisces, 4 degrees.. Well, I'm saying my moon is the closest planet to the NN in my 10th.

posted April 18, 2009 03:49 PM           

yeah but 'genetic memory', instinctual drives is apart from contraception.

if we didn't have contraception many would be living in fear of having a baby every year and some would have a baby every year.

and yeah some people are adopted or created totally artificially and all sorts of stuff - so I don't know what their charts might indicate.

nearly everyone can, to some degree, refer to some representation of home - even if its a cardboard box in a busy city - they would probably, too, still have indicators perhaps of what they perceived as an authority/parental influence and what kind of life ambitions/reputation they were after - even if they wanted to get really good at hustling and they were quite attached to some older waif or something(that might show up).

I guess I'm not really talking about whether people want to have a hetero liaison in some fashion and create a child. I'm more talking about the child and what kind of 'opposing/in tandem' parental influences they may have to some degree. Looking for a parent is more a twelth house issue, I would think.

Some one who didn't want to have children and only preferred same sex intimacy or whatever would still have a 4th/10th thing going on that would indicate the kind of home environment and one of the parents(or both) and also point to the kind of life/ambitions they were trying to achieve or maybe just their perception of authority figures etc.

So, sorry if the wording was saying that we absolutely have to choose an opposite sex partner to fulfil our genetic inclination, because that was not what I was saying. I think when I referred to drives I'm talking about long distant adaptions in humans that sometimes predispose them to act in certain ways or make choices in concordance with them. Someone not choosing to have a child would still be on that spectrum - because they have seen the option and sourced within themselves a response and that would be "no way, or not any time soon if I can help it". Most women have this kind of idea operational at various stages even if they have had a child.