posted May 23, 2009 09:33 AM         

I think your Dark Moon Lilith has the same aspect as mine, that is, conjunct Juno in the 10th house.

How do you think this has played out for you? Have you ever had this aspect conjunct Venus in synastry?

posted May 24, 2009 03:29 AM         

do you mean Waldemath's Lilith, h58? I have it loosely conjunct Juno in the 10th; I know very little about DML actually but it is interesting that 'the 2nd hypotethical Moon or dark shadow around the Earth' has never been confirmed.

this is what I found on DML:

According to Delphine Jay,the effect of Dark Moon Lilith is distinctly impersonal.

The Dark Moon shows where we can let the Whole flow into our selves, without putting an "I" in the way, without putting up a wall in the form of ego. At the same time, it doesn't indicate passivity - on the contrary - it symbolizes the firm will to be open & trusting, to let the Greater World flow through one, relying on the great laws of the universe, on that which we name God. To prepare for this opening, the Dark Moon creates a necessary void. ~Joelle de Gravelaine

keywords:
danger, darkness, deceit, destruction, devious, devouring, dreams, emptiness, enchantress, envy, fears, guilt, hatred, imagination, isolation, jealousy, magic, marriage-wrecker, mystery, night, poison, secrets, seduction, shame, the "other woman", vengefulness, sinister, malevolent, denying, frustrating, catastrophizing, self-undoing, crimes

now back to my DML conj Juno in Scorpio in the 10th:

It is hard to say, maybe it has something to do with my choice of men or men I find attractive? they are not good for me in the sense of my personal happiness BUT my experience with them enabled me to discover wisdom and strength in myself that I never thought existed? I try not to take it personally if things don't work, not anymore, I have learnt to look deeper, I try to find the real cause in myself, for example, why do I choose men that are not good for me and what exactly attracts me to them; my DML/Juno conjunction in Scorpio: our issues usually revolve around extreme jealosy, lack of trust, manipulation or domination, paranoia, sexuality etc. DML/Juno in the 10th: Juno represents both the need for relationship and the refusal to accept inequality within the context of a relationship. She represents the struggle to balance the need for intimacy with the opposing need for freedom - needs which both partners have, although one of these needs may be projected onto the partner. my Juno in the 10th is restrictive and the burdens of responsibility are unbearable sometimes... emotional withdrawl and the need for security at the same time - it is all there ... DML conj Juno deprives us of what we crave the most in the relationships and creates the necessary void so we can find it in ourselves, it seems...

what do you think, Koi? how does DML/Juno in the 10th feel for you?

posted May 29, 2009 01:41 AM         

I'll be back soon!

posted May 29, 2009 04:05 AM         

Well, in case it has, I really have difficulties taking it seriously.

Of course the Nodes, angles or Black Moon lilith arenīt real objects either; but at least I can understand the mathematics of it, the theoretical concept.
I can`t accept "guessing positions" though.

posted May 29, 2009 06:50 AM         

Juno in Aquarius 10th house:

A sense of freedom is exremely important. Juno in the tenth house indicates a partner that may help me in my career, or I could meet them at work.

Lilith is so powerful and deep. I think having it conjunct with Juno in Aquarius gives it a push/pull effect, perhaps. Aquarius being so freedom-loving, expansive thinking, and super friendly, I definitely need a partner who has these qualities too. The 10th house influence - well my partner has helped me to a degree in my career.

I have never tolerated jealous and posessive types. When my partner went through this type of phase, it was enough to almost end our relationship.

I have also had a pattern in my worklife, where men have tried to get it on with me in the workplace. I'm not sure if that's the Juno/Lilith in 10th house working, but I imagine it has some affect.

Lilith still eludes me in this placement. She is almost the epitome of the true woman, IMO. Maybe, Lilith gives strength and support in my workplace. I have great skills with intuition in my job (Merc in Leo in the 5th helps here, too).

I value and admire Lilith and will continue to reflect on her Womanly power.

posted May 29, 2009 07:13 AM         

I have her in Aqua, too; true Lilith is on 28 Aquarius. Where is yours?

To me Lilith is like a Moon-Pluto-uranus mix. An extreme intense emotional desire for equality and freedom.

EDIT
Let me add:
To me she is closely related to TRUTH, that sort of truth that really hurts sometimes; like she is burning away everything that is unreal and unneeded (including those illusions we love to cling to) and she doesnīt make compromises.
no matter how much she love someone (Adam for example), she will not surrender or compromise her truth.
She will rather leave her lover or even society than succumbing to "moral", even if it may break her heart.
And I think she will fight for her "truth", not always fairly, though.

BTW I see Lucifer as her male counterpart.
Both relate to disobedience or rather they obey, but they obey their own consciousness rather than an "authority" (even if it`s God).
Don`t forget, Lilith also disobeyed God, who commanded her to return to Adam and take her place BENEATH him.
She disobeyed and she rather bare all these tragic consequences (being an outcast, losing her children) than compromise her ideals.

To me, Lilith, is the archaic feminine principle, with all the female power before the civilisation took place.
She can become "dark", when women (or even men) choose to suppress these primal instincts and emotions, those could get a life of their own, uncontrolled, and acting like the shadow. Suppressing feelings is never a good idea.

In synastry Lilith aspects seem to relate strongly with sexuality; a wild, untamed, sometimes "immoral" or forbidden (only from the perspective of society) sexuality, and there are two ways to react to them. Either suppress that strong sexual vibration, which could lead to resent and rejection of the other person.
Or you allow the attraction to surface and delve into it, which will leaves you completely transformed.
Well, death is some kind of transformation, too, as is pain and loss. NOt to say that Lilith aspects will necessarily bring these about, but it is a possibility, just as burning passion is, too. It`s that all or nothing vibration.

posted May 29, 2009 11:37 AM         

I also thought so at the beginning but then it occured to me that people do accept their own "guessing" a lot when it comes to other people's motives and deeds! and that's why I find DML quite interesting

Koi BML represents your animus/anima figure so BML synastry aspects point at your dream man/woman! the attraction is very, very strong when BML is involved!

posted May 29, 2009 12:27 PM         

Anyway I completely agree on the BML - it`s so strong that sometimes even Pluto / 8th house positions pale in comparision.

What do you think? Who feels the attraction the most?

posted May 29, 2009 12:47 PM         

Don`t agree on the other statement though. Cause how could something that doesn`t exist at that time at that point in space describe anything in your psyche?

Or otherwise said; if it did, I could sit down and invent an ephemeris for a hypothetical planet and someone would identify with it?
I`m more than doubtful towards this one. And towards the Transneptunian planets for that matter.

posted May 29, 2009 12:58 PM         

with Black Moon Lilith being the lunar apogee (the point of the Moon's orbit farthest from the Earth), it makes sense that it has strong lunar symbolism/energy but more of a shadow side.

That also means that its opposite,point, the lunar perigree (the point of the Moon's orbit closest to the Earth) has a strong lunar symbolism/energy and no shadow side.

a conjunction to black moon lilith is the same as an opposition to the lunar perigree. a conjunct to lunar perigree is same as an opposition to the lunar perigree.

The Moon appears at its largest when Moon is at perigree.

The Moon appears at its smallest when Moon is at apogee.

I think of Lilith as the original feminist. I think that black moon lilith has to do with feminism and everything associated with feminism. That's not necessarily a negative thing. This doesn't have to be Uranus,Pluto. Moon is emotional to begin with. Moon is erratic,fluctuating to begin with. Moon is the subconcious to begin with. It was associated with dreams,psychic stuff long before the outerplanets were discovered. I don't see any need for Black Moon Lilith to be associated with Uranus,Pluto,and or any other planetary characteristics. I believe that the lunar symbolism fits the Black Moon Lilith perfectly......especially if you don't just view Black Moon Lilith by itself but view lunar perigree/apogee as one axis just like you view the lunar nodes as one axis.

I have Sun conjunct true Black Moon Lilith/oppose perigree with 22 minutes of arc, and my Sun trine Moon with 2'10 orb. Even my Sun squares the Lunar Nodes with a little over 5 degrees,and so my Sun is strongly connected to lunar symbolism.

Raymond

posted May 29, 2009 01:22 PM         

My Venus is conjunct Dark Moon Lilith within one degree. I think nothing of it. My Venus is in Scorpio,in alignment with alpha Serpentis,Unukalhai that has been assigned a Mars/Saturn influence. That can account for troubles in my love life.

posted May 29, 2009 07:19 PM         

DD - hey there!! My BML is 3*26'. I'm 24* away from you!!

Peri - did you read Glaucus' reply in the 'not wanting children' thread? he made an interesting comment which got me thinking about my BML conjunct Juno in regards with me not having children. My decision not to have children in my younger years were over-powered by feelings of fear. This fear goverend emotional as well as physical concerns. As I've got older, I wanted some elements of life to be in place before contemplating children, eg, feeling safe. But things happen, and now I don't think I'll have children - although I came to terms with this many years ago anyway.

So I wonder if BML has dominated Juno in a sense, by suppressing the full desire of commitment and seeking a partner to have a child with. Even though BML may have had a suppression influence, I think it's added fuel to the fire with Juno's passion. The depths of my emotions of desire have been incredible (Plutonian almost!).

posted May 30, 2009 04:29 AM         

added* I have:

true BML conj Sun/IC
mean BML in the 5th, parallel Sun
DML conj Juno
asteroid Lilith conj asteroid Child opp Saturn
asteroid Lucifer conj Ceres
asteroid Medusa conj Moon

posted May 30, 2009 04:51 AM         

I agree with your post here in this thread.

Peri,

posted May 30, 2009 05:00 AM         

if something is illogical (in someone's opinion) it does not necessarily mean it does not work, the whole astrology is illogical imo but let's agree to disagree

posted May 30, 2009 09:46 PM         

quote:

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DD, I was inattentive and confused you with Koi

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That's your Lilith (deceit) interefering with your Juno (relationships), Peri

Lilith in whatever form still requires attention. I refer to what IQ once said about 'collective thought'. However we choose to think about an object/idea will manifest its true nature.

posted May 31, 2009 09:52 AM         

sorry I still disagree.

The idea of "collective thought" refers to the meaning and interpretation of a symbol like an asteroid, planet or even a Moon, but not to the actual position in the sky.

posted May 31, 2009 01:34 PM         

quote:

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BM Lilith natal placement symbolizes a point of extreme strength of character and high intuitive intelligence that we may, or may not, be reafy to embrace yet. Women with strong egos and big brains aren't easily accepted in a society of insecure men and women either. Lilith represents a point of threat in this way; not a point of safety like The Moon or a point of pleasure like Venus. Lilith represents the threat of separating yourself from the world and finding the power you need within yourself.

BML on the DESC seeks out the arena of partnership to explore this power, a mate that will not dominate or oppress unless it is a fully conscious act of power exchange allowing deeper surrender to Lilith, the feral feminine. BML on ASC, the person is fated to walk the planet as a living embodiment of Lilith whether they are in denial or acceptance of their strength.

There is a ruthless, brutal and searing perception with natal BM Lilith. It's as if this part of ourselves has separated from the masses and stands alone looking at all the people unaware of the howling void around and insdie of them. Lilith knows this Void as a part of her, not separate from her, and so she does not refuse the void. She leaps into the void. And like a duststorm, Lilith blows across the land causing havoc wherever naivete is confused for innocence and death wears the mask of security.

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