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Author Topic:   Grand Crosses and T-Squares
Lucia23
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posted June 18, 2009 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
How do you tell if you have one?

What orb do you use?

Do you include the Nodes, Angles, Vertex, Chiron, or asteroids when looking for Grand Crosses or T-Squares in the natal?

How about in synastry?

Does it make sense to consider these dynamics with transits, too? For example, let's say Person A has a mutable T-square (Gemini Moon, Pisces Saturn, Sag Sun) and transiting Sun passes through Virgo, temporarily finishing his T-Square into a Grand Cross...would that be a particularly challenging time for him?

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comica23
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posted June 18, 2009 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
A t-square is formed by three planets, in which two of them are opposed to each other while the third one squares both of them.

A grand cross is formed by four planets, in which each of them is opposed to one of them while squared to two others of them. Which means that all four planets are squared to each other.

In the t-square, it's normally the square planet that triggers the conflict between the opposed planets' energies. While in the grand cross, I suppose that any of the planets involved could be the trigger.

I guess I'd still consider the degrees up to 5, yet the narrower the degrees are, the stronger is the effect, and vice versa.

Personally, I'd still consider the AC or any other angles, coz looking at it psychologically, it could mean that your personality/way of being (or other parts of us, depending on which angle we are considering) is in conflict with your internal energies. Chiron also seems relevant, as it can tell a lot about our pain and healing. About the asteroids, they seem less relevant, as they are just details in the charts (yet it can depend on how prominent each of them are in the chart, to determine whether they are really relevant or not - but still are just details compared to the other main things). And about the nodes, they do seem important when involved in a t-square/grand-cross, simply coz any square or opposition to the nodes are meaningful anyways.
But I wouldn't really consider vertex thought, maybe coz I don't see how it could be relevant in a psychological way yet. But then, it seems that vertex is the angle that shows our sudden feelings of fate (those "oooh *sacred lights illuminating*" moments lool), so again, I'm not very sure how to see it in a t-square psychologically. ^_^;

In the synastry, it might be a bit different in terms of interpretation, coz it depends on whose planets are involved, and which ones are in opposite and which ones are in square.
But well, in the synastry, all those things you have listed might be meaningful when involved in the t-square (although asteroids are still more like details).

Lastly, yeah the transits might also be relevant, coz it would influence these aspects. And since these aspects are specially difficult, it might often be more meaningful than other transits that affects other sides of the chart.


Personally, I have a t-square involving Taurus Mars (9th house) opposing Scorpio Pluto (3rd house) and squaring Aquarius Jupiter (6th house). I do feel the need to achieve balance between my need to have solid beliefs and the need to have a flexible mind. And aside of focusing on achieving the balance between these, I also focus on developing the issues of 12th house/Leo to learn more about these conflicts.

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blue moon
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posted June 19, 2009 02:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blue moon     Edit/Delete Message
These explanations may help:-

http://www.lunarliving.org/astrology/grandcross_t-square.shtml

http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/StarTypes-Life-Path-Astrology/3479-StarType-3-The-Grand-Cross

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 19, 2009 04:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
shrugs

Chiron is one of over 60 centaurs in our solar system. It's one of over 10 named centaurs too. Chariklo is larger and brighter than Chiron is orbits between Saturn and Uranus like Chiron. It's orbit is less eccentric like all the other centaurs that are named after females. The centaurs named after males have more eccentric orbits.

I am feeling the same way about Pluto with it it being one of over thousands of kuiper belt objects. If Pluto is used, why not also use Eris which is even larger than Pluto? Makemake and Haumea aren't much smaller than Pluto either,and they are Pluto's equals in Astronomy as fellow dwarf planets,plutoids. For that matter, Sedna,Orcus,Quaoar,Varuna,Ixion are big objects too.

there are 3 other big transneptunians that aren't named yet.


Ceres is the largest of the asteroids, and it is classed as dwarf planet like Pluto. It's Pluto's equal in Astronomy,and I believe that they should be equals in Astrology too. I definitely believe that Ceres works in t-squares. I always thought Ceres was very underrated.


I think t-squares with objects other than planets work, but I would keep the orbs smaller for them like 3 degrees, but stretch out to 1 degree to complete an aspect pattern.


I usually use 5 degree orb for regular planets,and could stretch out to 1 degree orb.


this is all for natal.


the same could be used for synastry

but the more distant,generational the object is, the narrower the orb that I use


so Sedna which has an orbit of 10,000 years would get the narrowest orb of all
like around 5 minutes of arc.


I don't believe in using angles for t-squares. They are not physical objects. Then there is the opposite angle to consider too.

it gets more iffy if the midheaven/imum coeli axis is closely square the ascendant/descendant axis which happens in my case with my Ascendant/Descendant in 13'27 Virgo/Pisces square Midheaven/Imum Coeli in 11'14 Gemini/Sagittarius....so if anything conjuncts either angle, it squares the other angle axis.
for instance, my Haumea in 11'16 Virgo conjuncts/oppose my Ascendant/Descendant axis and squares my Midheaven/Imum Coeli axis


I don't use the vertex/antivertex nor the nodes either. every object has nodes which are only interfaces involving the orbital path of 2 objects.

I have a t-square, and it's a pain in the ass

Moon in 3'11 Pisces in 6th square the opposition of retrograde Saturn in 5'08 Gemini in 9th and Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius in 3rd and Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius in 3rd. The Moon is squares the Saturn-Neptune opposition is so close that my Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint in 3'28 Virgo in 12th.

I would not use my Ascendant in Virgo to complete a grand cross. The opposition to the midpoint in Virgo is significant enough. I wouldn't count it as part of a grand cross though. I don't think that there is any need for a 4th leg object.....I don't really believe that theory. It doesn't take far direct midpoint into account.

if adding in other objects within the orbs that I use

then my retrograde Varuna in 3'01 Gemini and retrograde Pallas in 2'36 Gemini also part of my t-square with them conjuncting Saturn,opposing Neptune,and squaring Moon.


Raymond

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blue moon
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posted June 19, 2009 05:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blue moon     Edit/Delete Message
Now I have to say I count my ASC within a T-Square, as I feel the pain of that one so strongly. It drags in the Nodes which does symbolise neatly how I feel it contains a life lesson that I keep on learning.

Like Raymond I was born under the shadow of the Neptune/Jupiter/Saturn formation and it is hard to carry. In my case it Square the M.C, like he says an axis not a body in the sky. Still, in context of my persona it does sum something up that I struggle with, an idealism, a lack of ambition, a difficulty in getting moving.

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comica23
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posted June 19, 2009 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
I think that although the AC/DC/IC/MC axis aren't real objects, but psychologically they do represent something that exists, so that's why they can still have effect. So saying that they aren't really involved in the t-squares/grand crosses would be assuming that they also don't take effect in the minor aspects like simple squares and oppositions.

But then, the nature of these axis is still different than the nature of the planets themselves.

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted June 19, 2009 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
I never said that the angles, nodes don't work with aspects whatsoever

I just don't believe that they should be counted in aspect configurations because they are not physical objects


angles,nodes do work with midpoint configurations too


you don't have to have have angles or nodes to work with aspect patterns for them to work in aspects and midpoint pictures in general.


btw...conjunctions,oppositions,trines,squares,sextiles are considered major aspects
because they are the aspects used by Ptolemy
called Ptolemaic aspects

He was using them by sign and not by geometrical angle. He didn't use aspects like we use aspects.

semisquares,sesquiquadrates,quincunxes,semisextiles and other aspects that are not ptolemaic are considered minor aspects

I would not consider my Ascendant/Descendant square Midheaven-Imum Coeli axis a grand cross. That wouldn't make sense


I would not consider the heliocentric Uranus Nodes square my Ascendant/Descendant axis a grand cross either


angle axises like the ascendant/descendant axis and midheaven/imum coeli axis, vertex/antivertex axis are like sensitive points that don't transmit their own energy like objects do. They are pretty much just receptacles.

they are just mathematical abstract points.

the same with nodes of objects (whether heliocentric, geocentric), perigree/apogee axis(black moon is actually the lunar apogee), perihelion/aphelion axis


an aspect pattern involving only objects, the objects transmit their energy to each other. They are not mere receptacles. They send and receive the energy.


the ascendant/descendant axis are actually nodes


the creator of Matrix Astrology software, Michael Erlewine explains in good detail about nodes in general. It's really important to understand the astronomy behind the angle axises and nodes
http://www.astrologysoftware.com/books/pdf/Interface.pdf

Raymond

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comica23
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posted June 19, 2009 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
Ops, when I said "minor aspects", I actually wanted to mean that they were minor/simpler aspects compared to the t-squares/grand crosses and other "bigger" aspects. ^_^;

Also, I was just interpreting things in a psychological/symbolical way, so that's why I think that any of these four axis, when involved in those "big" aspects, can't really be ignored - although at the same time they can't be interpreted the same way as planets themselves in these aspects, coz their nature are different and their influences are less evident as well.

Actually, I also have the same axis grand cross as you (in the same signs), but just my angles are all around 0º lol. XP And I agree with you, that it can't really be considered as a grand cross. Simply coz those axis oppositions has a different nature of those oppositions with other objects - these oppositions doesn't really create conflicts within them, as they are naturally opposed to each other (unless there are objects in conjunction on both sides, opposing each other). So the only thing I can still feel in this "grand cross" are the squares thought, mostly the AC/MC side.

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comica23
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posted June 19, 2009 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
About the nodes, I'm not sure how it is with the other nodes of other planets, but if for example we have two planets in opposition with each other and both squaring our NN/SN, then the fact that the NN/SN are being squared to these can't simply be ignored - it would feel that the conflicts created by these two planets would affect our life path (issues of our NN/SN).

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amowls*
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From: richmond va
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posted June 19, 2009 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for amowls*     Edit/Delete Message
I have a loose T-square with Chiron opposing Saturn/Uranus, both squaring Venus. Chiron is at 23 Gem, though, while Venus is at 29 Pisces and Sat/Uranus are at 29 Sag. However, if you count angles, my ASC is at 27 Gem and that would form a more legit t-square.

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted June 19, 2009 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I understand what you meant.

I didn't like transiting Saturn conjuncting my Ascendant/oppose my Descendant axis with it squaring my Midheaven/Imum Coeli axis

that really sucked. felt very depressed around that time too. That was last year


Raymond

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Glaucus
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posted June 19, 2009 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
comica,

that's the same with the heliocentric nodes.

the heliocentric north and south nodes are exactly opposite each other like the lunar nodes are


My heliocentric Neptune Nodes are aligned with the lunar nodes


Neptune Nodes in 11'28 Leo/Aquarius in 11th and 5th houses
Lunar Nodes in 10'29 Aquarius/Leo in 5th and 11th houses
Midheaven/Imum Coeli in 11'14 Gemini/Sagittarius
Chiron in 10'32 Aries in 8th R
Eris in 12'14 Aries in 8th R

so the past merges with the present,and so I have to work with the past collective Neptunian karma with the present lunar karma in Aquarius matters of the 5th house

work with the past lunar karma with the present collective Neptunian karma with the past lunar karma in Leo matters of the 11th house


other heliocentric nodal aspects
orbs no more than 2 degrees


Uranus Nodes in 13'51 Gemini/Sagittarius in 10th and 4th houses
Ascendant/Descendant axis in 13'27 Virgo/Pisces

Mercury Nodes in 18'00 Taurus/Scorpio in 9th and 3rd houses
Mars Nodes in 19'00 Taurus/Scorpio in 9th and 3rd houses
Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio in 3rd house


Eris Nodes in 5'30 Taurus/Scorpio in 8th and 2nd houses
Sun in 5'20 Scorpio in 2nd


Saturn Nodes in 23'25 Cancer/Capricorn in 11th and 5th houses
Venus in 21'47 Scorpio in 3rd


Venus Nodes in 16'15 Gemini/Sagittarius in 10th and 4th houses
Uranus in 15'17 Libra in 2nd


Jupiter Nodes in 10'10 Cancer in 10th and 4th houses
Chiron in 10'32 Aries in 8th R


Pluto Nodes in 19'55 Cancer/Capricorn in 11th and 5th houses
Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio in 3rd
Venus in 21'47 Scorpio in 3rd


Raymond

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Lucia23
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posted June 19, 2009 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
Everybody should read Raymond's link on the nodes! It's very helpful in explaining them, especially how they are both symbolic and physical. (Thank you for posting it, Raymond.)

In comparing and contrasting synastries of different people I know, I'm finding all kinds of nodes much more significant than I ever thought I would. I didn't know what they were or how they worked or that the ASC and house cusps were nodes, I just noticed THAT they worked. If I scan the synastry (from Astro.com) of two people who are in an actual one-on-one romantic relationship, their angles are almost always conjunct--often not the one's you'd expect to lead to romance. It makes sense that we would very much feel the intersection of these sensitive points with each other's points--but it also, based on that explanation, makes sense that we would look to where the PLANETS in a T Square, Grand Trine, or Grand Cross contacted our angles.

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