posted July 29, 2009 11:30 AM         

quote:

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is it our charts (Saturn/Asteroid Karma) that define what our Karma will be?

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I just want to add this perspective:

posted July 29, 2009 11:31 AM         

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•' •.♥♫♫´°°♫ • Life is Beautiful •.♥.•♫°°´♫♫ ♥ •

•Sun• Cancer
•Moon• Gemini
•Mars• Cancer
•Mercury• Cancer
•Venus• Leo

posted July 29, 2009 11:49 AM         

It's all of the things you stated. It's very complicated. The chart is just a map of what may happen. Your actions determine, in part, what will happen to you, but not always.

I wish I had more time to write. I have someone coming to fix something (else!!) that's broken in my house since the eclipse on my IC, how appropos.

posted July 29, 2009 12:14 PM         

so yeah..I agree with Stephen Arroyo whose books that I have. I like his transformational astrology that approaches the chart with a psychological and karmic approach.

I think my t-square of Moon in Pisces in 6th square the opposition of retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 9th and Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd is a sign of some serious karmic sh-t! It's very challenging configuration....especially the t-square involving Moon,Saturn,Neptune which is also Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 17 minutes of arc.
I must have done some seriously bad stuff in pastlives to get a t-square like that!

My Sun is on the South Eris Node in Scorpio in 2nd/oppose North Eris Node in Taurus in 8th,and I have Eris retrograde in Aries in 8th too!

I wonder if violent death linked to diversity might has been part of my karmic pastlives, and I wonder about the possibility of my being murdered in this life as a result of it.

I am intent on being nothing but a good person in this life. The past has nothing to do with who I am. Only my present life and what I do now.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted July 29, 2009 12:17 PM         

I do think that our actions does have an influence on the future. And our thoughts can influence our actions, whether consciously or unconsciously, and whether a lot or just a bit, so they are relevant too.

posted July 29, 2009 01:35 PM         

The soul does not perceive time in a linear manner, so there really is no chronological order to the many lives it has. All of them are happening at the same time. So your thoughts/words/deeds NOW comprise your Karma, meaning it affects the YOU in the past, in the present and in the future. If you want a great life make wise decisions NOW. Your present life will improve and your past selves and future selves will thank you for it.

IMHO, I believe that before we came here we made conscious (in soul terms) decisions on how our life is going to turn out. Your choice of "major" or specialization is your Karma. So yes, I agree that the whole chart represents our Karma, and you attract people, things, events and situations that fit the theme you chose before birth. However, I don't see it as a burden that we have to carry, it's what we choose to experience during the limited time that we are here.

Like when you go on tour in a foreign place, you have different experiences to choose from: shopping tour, walking tour, river cruise, historical tour, adventure park tour, hiking, arts workshop, health and holistic activities tour, food tour, etc. You choose only those themes that appeal to you, it's impossible to do all of them because there is not enough time. Come back another time if you want.

posted July 29, 2009 02:07 PM         

the link is to another thread, same subject, very good read!

PAXTON ROBEY'S NO TIME FOR KARMA is a fantastic read on this subject.

karma, to me, is something you have CHOSEN to experience in order to balance other experiences or learn a lesson that has eluded you in other lifetimes. linear or concurrent, i don't think it matters, but KARMA IS A CHOICE. and you can dismantle it without going through the pain and struggle associated with the lessons if you choose...

posted July 29, 2009 02:34 PM         

I do believe that karma is about cause and effect and about things like for every action, there is an equal,opposite reaction as well as what goes around comes around and we reap what we sow. Interestingly,the glyph Saturn that some astrologers say is the planet of karma or karmic debt looks like the sickle,an agricultural reaping tool. Saturn was known as agricultural god. In Mythology, Saturn/Cronos used the sickle to cut off the testicles of Uranus/Ouranos. He overthrew Saturn/Cronos and replaced him as King of all things, and he was overthrown and replaced by Jupiter/Zeus. There are consequences for our actions. Whether they are positive or negative, well...that's relative to the perception.

nobody said anything about punishment. it can be a perception of punishment. I do believe in things like karmic debts and retribution though. I do believe in karmic lessons. For me, diversity is a strong karmic lesson for me. The things that happen in my life and might happen life isn't necessarily punishment, but lessons involving diversity. that's just my view. I am not going to force my beliefs on others. I am not here to preach and say this is how it is like it's some fact. That's not me.

on the other hand, I don't believe in condoning the mistreatment of others because of something they done in pastlives.

I believe that karma should be used as a motivator to treat others like we want to be treated ...fellow human beings with a soul. I wouldn't want a person being mistreated because of some karma like some people seem to do on this planet, and that includes stuff like the death penalty which seems to be based on The Code of Hammurabi. After all, the reincarnation/concept including other religious beliefs were used to condone prejudice,discrimination,bigotry,and oppression by a lot of people.

that's just my view.

I also wonder if the placement and aspects of the asteroid,Karma in our chart reflects our perception of what karma is just like the placements of heavenly bodies in our chart reflect perceptions of things in related to those heavenly bodies.

my Karma is in Libra in 1st conjunct Pluto in Libra in 1st, trine the retro trio of Saturn,Varuna,and Pallas in Gemini in 9th, sextile Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd and quincunx Moon in Pisces in 6th.

any ways, I will agree to disagree about this, especially with this being about religious,spiritual beliefs.

imho it's all relative especially when you use language to describe a concept
for language that we use on this planet is an invention by humans.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted July 29, 2009 03:33 PM         

I believe that whatever karma we have, we can still live product lives. I don't believe karma should hold us back in any way. I believe that we can learn from our karma and help with our soul evolution.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted July 29, 2009 03:34 PM         

In a way its a matter of morality, are you really going to get bad karma if you do something bad? No, probably not... That is why there are so many terrible people out there that do terrible things, because there are no repercussions but your own sense of right or wrong.

If you are prone to having a guilty conscience and feel you did something karmically wrong, most likely it will catch up with you, because your own mentality manifested this guilt that will eventually manifest in the external world or your own psyche.

I also don't really believe in past lives, because like Deux Antares was saying, time is not chronological, so how can we possibly be from a certain time period or place or even from this place called Earth?

posted July 29, 2009 03:49 PM         

The good news is we all have the necessary tools for our individual journeys, we don't come here unprepared.

posted July 29, 2009 04:08 PM         

Chronos means "time"

chronological is referring to time

this is what wikipedia says:

Not to be confused with Cronus, a Titan.

In Greek mythology, Chronos (Ancient Greek: Χρόνος in pre-Socratic philosophical works is said to be the personification of time. His name actually means "days" and is alternatively spelled Khronos (transliteration of the Greek) or Chronus (Latin version).

Chronos was imagined as an incorporeal god. Serpentine in form, with three heads—that of a man, a bull, and a lion. He and his consort, serpentine Ananke (Inevitability), circled the primal world-egg in their coils and split it apart to form the ordered universe of earth, sea and sky.

He was depicted in Greco-Roman mosaics as a man turning the Zodiac Wheel. Often the figure is named Aeon (Eternal Time), a common alternate name for the god.

Chronos is usually portrayed through an old, wise man with a long, gray beard, such as "Father Time." Some of the current English words whose etymological root is khronos/chronos include chronology, chronic, and chronicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos

I believe that time is chronological.
I don't believe that time is just linear. I believe that time is both linear and nonlinear.

time can be relative.

I believe that time in the metaphysical isn't the same as time in the physical. I believe that we can actually live 1000 years in the metaphysical world, but it could actually be 5 years, 100 years,or any other years that don't equate 1000 years in the metaphysical world.

The author of the Narnia Chronicles, C.S. Lewis wrote about this concept. Many years of the fictional,alternative world Narnia equated to a short amount of time on Earth.

Possible parallel universes would also fit with the relativity of time.

I wrote the following some time ago:

I am a strong believer in God. I don't believe in "old man high in the sky watching over us" God though. I believe in God as everything and that it is in everything. That means that I am a pantheist. Sometimes, I refer to God as the universe. I might even just use the word,the divine. I could even say that it's nature itself. Pan is the Greek God of Nature,and Pan means "all",

Because of my belief in pantheism, I believe that we all connected through the divine energy that I believe is in every one of us. I believe that Astrology works because everything in existence is connected to each other,and so that includes the heavenly bodies. That's why I even believe that asteroids(even personal name asteroids) work in Astrology. I believe that God is both female and male....the yin and yang. I believe that a positive always to have a negative and vice versa. The positive and negative balance each other out that it's neutral. We see that with negative integers and positive intergers. a negative integer of a number plus the positive integer of the number ( - 1 + 1 = 0). The number zero has no beginning nor end just like I believe that time,space,and cosmos has no beginning nor end. Both positive and negative integers go to infinity. There is no beginning nor end to numbers. I believe that life is infinite itself as it goes in cycles. Once it reaches the end of 1 cycle,it goes to another. I even believe that concept applies to birth,death,rebirth concept of reincarnation which I am a believer in. I also believe in parallel universes,and I believe that there is infinite number of universes. I believe that all of us have counterparts in parallel universes too. I even believe that with all these infinite parallel universes,there is infinite possibilities of how our lives can manifest. Therefore,I believe that our potential is infinite. I even believe that every moment, the actions we take actually even lead us to transference to one parallel universe to another and to another, but we don't realize it. It's like going back in time,but when you go back,it's like you never left. Nothing has changed except your thoughts,feelings to your surroundings which can be connected to change in frequencies which can be due to unconscious shift to another universe parallel to the one that we were previously in. I even believe that our imaginations actually help us tap into these parallel universes. I believe that the dreamworld is actually a parallel universe where the laws of physics don't apply, and so things like flying can easily happen with just a thought.

We can say that 3Dimensional objects have no end because of overlapping sides. We can go in various directions and go to the end which can also be a beginning like the corner of a table as you go down a side and get to the end,you're a corner which also beginning of another side. Of course, objects that are round have no sides and corners, and no matter how you turn it, it looks the same. That's how I view God. No matter how we perceive God from certain sides,angles, I believe that it's still the same God. It's our perceptions of God what makes God to be different. I believe that applies to everything else because God is all.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted July 30, 2009 08:47 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by,vertiver

I don't believe in the black and white ideology of good and bad Karma.

In a way its a matter of morality, are you really going to get bad karma if you do something bad? No, probably not... That is why there are so many terrible people out there that do terrible things, because there are no repercussions but your own sense of right or wrong.

If you are prone to having a guilty conscience and feel you did something karmically wrong, most likely it will catch up with you, because your own mentality manifested this guilt that will eventually manifest in the external world or your own psyche.

---

Very interesting take on this. I agree for the most part.

Its just sometimes I wonder about Karma. Sometimes like mentioned in an earlier reply, people do horrible things and nothing wrong ever seems to happen to them. On the other hand, you sometimes see people do MUCH good in their life and nothing good ever comes to them. This has made me wonder about the whole concept of karma and a few other things as a whole.

posted July 30, 2009 10:55 AM         

That's the same argument karma skeptics use to argue agaisnt the belief of karma. I read the same point. It's like the argument that there is no God because there are so many bad things that happen in this world to people, but some believe that doesn't discount God. Some will point out that it just shows that some people are just separate from God through ignorance of the God in them. I am a pantheist myself.

Rreincarnation believers tend to believe that often times people who do much good in their lives and nothing good ever comes to them in the present life will have come to them in future lives. They believe that if people do horrible things in this life and nothing wrong ever happens to them,bad things can happen to them in future lives.

So there are people that believe that karma work in not just the present life, but also pastlives and future lives.

I believe in pastlives to the point that I believe in pastlives as being female in many lives, and that's why I have strong feminine traits reflected by my high estrogen levels for a male. I believe in pastlives of being other races,nationalities,religions etc. A lot of reincarnation believers believe that.

I think the reincarnation concept could be an argument to get gay marriage legalized because there are gay couples that believe in reincarnation. They might believe that they knew each other in pastlives. They might believe that they were a heterosexual couple in pastlives. One of them might believe that they were part of a different gender,

If more people believed in reincarnation and that they reincarnated as different races, we would have less racism.

If more people believed in reincarnation and that they reincarnated as different genders, we would have less sexism.

If more people believed in reincarnation and that they reincarnated as various different things, we would have less bigotry of those things.

that's just my view.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted July 30, 2009 12:14 PM         

I just had some thoughts on Karma as well. So its kind of interesting to read this thread, very insightful thoughts on here. I was recently discussing the idea of Karma and paying back Karmic debts with a friend and I found her reply very profound, so I thought I would share it:

"Karma is a word like coincidence, it is misused but both describe so much in one word. We do bring thought energy from past life-streams, and karma is considered a spiritual punishment.

When we do achieve a stable balanced mind/body/spirit, karma is not looked at as a ‘debt’, and I believe one of the main reasons why we do return to the physical life form is to find this awareness.

Karma is action-reaction which creates a consequence, but the consequence is not always a punishment- this is an illuminati belief- you could never live in the physical world without karma because every second you are interacting in action.

Balancing karma is structuring trust with YOU, because when you do trust YOU without question, you never say ‘why’ to your challenges/consequences (karma) because the unquestionable trust works through anything.

Begin today by not questioning ‘why’ you are dealing with whatever, but accepting that if you did not have the strength to deal with such a situation- you would not!

You have to trust yourself so that others will follow your lead…."

I share the same sentiments as she does, which my reason for posting that. I believe that Karma is a action-reaction thing. A cosmic law of energy and how it interacts that we are bound to when in the physical dimension because that is how it is.
But there is a certain freeness that comes from just "being" you know. Not being here for a "purpose" or here to accomplish a specific task. Why can't we just be here? Discovering in each moment just how much more profound life on Earth really is because we can actually see it and focus on it instead of dimissing it. Isnt that the principle of living in the "NOW"? Living in the moment....

I say that in our charts where the Asteroid "Karma" falls tells us, where, and how we deal with our Karma and can show us vital clues as to how we learn to transmute our Karma in this lifeline.

For instance my Asteroid Karma is conjunct Destinn and opposes my Moon and Nept conjunction exactly. I was destinned to learn about my short comings through occult knowledge. And I have. Astrology kicks me in the ass everytime I read about it, because its always so spot on in my behavoral patterns and deep thought process, that I am constantly having to refine. But as result of the knowledge I am able to deal with it and transmute my Karma because I know exactly what is going on even as I am living it. Its very surreal at times, but fun nonetheless because it cuts down on the "action" part. Which causes way less of a need to react

posted July 30, 2009 03:02 PM         

Wonderful thread. I like your sentiments too, oneruled. From what I've read, Karma was originally defined as action-reaction, but through exposure to the west became misused and attributed to all sorts of things... until the concept became one that anyone could personally define to suit them. Living in the moment is not what Americans tend to do anyway, as a culture, and one that I am completely immersed in.

I think my chart is full of past or current life "debt". I was born feeling the world was against me... I told my mother when I was three years old that I didn't belong here. I strongly felt that I was in the wrong place all through my childhood. If that has anything to do with karma, I don't know.

posted July 30, 2009 03:19 PM         

ummmm.....it wasn't just the west

Karma/reincarnation concept has been used by some people in the East to oppress certain people and "keep them in their place"

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted July 30, 2009 04:01 PM         

I don't believe that is how the concept originated. Some actually do believe that,and some don't. It depends on the person and the society that a person comes from....especially the social class in society. I was just saying that some people in the East used Karma/reincarnation concept to oppress certain people and keep them in their place before it was exposed to the West.

Religion,spiritual beliefs have always been misused by some people in many societies..regardless if they are in the West or East.

That doesn't mean that the religious,spiritual beliefs are bad though. They can be good. It just depends on how a person uses them.

spiritual,religious hypocrisy doesn't invalidate a certain spirituality,religion.

this is coming from somebody who is a member of an interfaith unity church and recognizes many spiritual,religious paths are valid.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted July 30, 2009 05:06 PM         

It seems that the perception of what karma is varies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted July 30, 2009 06:11 PM         

I am in 100 percent agreement with you.

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”