posted September 19, 2009 11:43 PM            

I remember a discussion you and I had a loong time ago, about House systems.

In the past when I posted a chart I almost always used Koch. Then I switched to placidus cos that's what every one else is used to. Then I switched to equal / whole feeling it was a better compromise.

For personal use it depends on the chart itself. Is it an event chart? Is it time specific? Where do I want the angles? What hemisphere /time zone if a natal, and so on.
In general I use Koch allot, 75% of the time?

posted September 19, 2009 11:52 PM            

I remember too. You mentioned words I had never heard of before, like Vehlow and Regiohippopotamus.

If you're using Koch 75% of the time, you're soo a Koch lover. I apologize for taking this long to see the light.

posted September 20, 2009 07:30 AM            

quote:

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The first I ever bought was The Only Astrology Book You'll Ever Need

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that was on my local library shelf...good for a fire starter on a chilly night.

Glad you liked that little Schulman book, always wondered if you had received it.
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Hi DD I ment where in the house the ASC, MC are placed.

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And further on equal...intercepted houses are not represented, which is why I rarely use it; though there are great arguments in it's favor. Personal preference I guess.

A Uranian Astrologer turned me on to Koch back in the day, used it ever since.
And when the time is unknown I rarely use a 12:00 chart, choosing to use a solar chart [Sun on the ASC] instead.

I just looked up our poster boy never googled him before.....

Dr. Walter Koch (18 September 1895 - 25 February 1970)[1] was a German astrologer who founded the Koch House System in Astrology. He was born in Esslingen, Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany and died in Göppingen.

posted September 20, 2009 09:54 PM              

also the moons...one is 3* from the DSC and the other 7*..and the artist has neptune on ASC, the other is 6* into the 12th house.

so there are differences, just not quite as BLATANT as #1 having sat in 2nd (the businessman) and #2 has it in 3rd (the artist).

posted September 20, 2009 10:59 PM            

It's interesting to see how people have reconciliated the planet-house shifts that occur when switching from Placidus to Koch.

posted September 20, 2009 11:38 PM            

Whole Sign Houses:
the original house system

In no other area of astrology is there so much mess and confusion than in the area of the so-called "houses". There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity.

The more commonly known house systems are: Whole signs(oldest), Equal House(1st century BC), Porphyry(3rd century AD), Alcabitus(6th century), Campanus(13th century), Regiomantus(14th century), Placidus(17th century), and Koch(20th century). Others include: Meridian(Midheaven), Topocentric, Morinus, Horizontal, Geodetic, Zodiacal, Svarogish, Krusinski, and so on.

In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains, are supposed to represent general areas of life activity. They are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for the planets. There are generally twelve houses, although in extreme northern or southern lattitudes there can be ten, depending on the house system used.

In modern astrology, two important points or "angles" are generally used in the construction of houses; the ascendant degree which begins the first house, and the Midheaven degree which starts the tenth house. At equatorial latitudes these two points are generally 90 degrees apart, but the further one moves north or south the greater or lesser the distance between them, resulting in uneven and sometimes intercepted(invisible) houses.

The most common house system in use today is the Placidus system named after Placidus de Tito of the 17th century. In this system, like most others, the ascending degree starts the first house and the midheaven degree starts the tenth house. The remaining houses are then trisected on a time arc basis rather than space. The problem is the houses distort or intercept in extreme latitudes.

It seems human nature always veers towards the more complex ideas or notions in any field, ignoring the truer and simpler ones. Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable or meant the same thing. A planet in Aries was also a planet in the house of Aries, so that in effect. there were no real houses as we know them today.

The artificial divisions we now know as houses were attempts by the early Greeks and the Hindus to measure strength "points" in the horoscope, which at some point in time(7th and 8th centuries AD) were construed or confused as means of dividing the birth chart. The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites, for example, were definite power points or areas of intense focus, but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant.

In fact, there is no real basis for the astrological houses at all. They derive from a misunderstanding of the true nature of the Ascendant and Midheaven factors in astrology, the former representing the Earth or terrestial sphere, and the latter representing the Sky, Heaven, or celestial sphere. The Ascendant is planet Earth, and the Midheaven(MC) has as its source, the Earth's inner central sun. The IC(Imum Coeli) and the descendant are merely opposite or reflex points.

If any house system should be used at all, it should be the Whole Sign House system, where the ascendant sign becomes the whole first house and the others follow. The ascendant point can then fall anywhere in the first house and the midheaven point anywhere in the upper half of the chart. The Ascendant and Midheaven, in effect, become PLANETS, which is what they truly are, and because we live on planet Earth, it is the FIRST house or primary habitation. For a description of what the houses really mean, see here http://www.librarising.com/astrology/fwa/basics2.html

The Whole Sign House system was used by the ancient Greeks and the Hindus(who still use it today). It is the oldest and simplest house system in existence, and immediateley eliminates the awful mess astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so.

For a full explanation on whole sign houses see here.
http://classicalastrology.tribe.net/thread/4f214879-77d3-41e2-8365-50f5f753761d

http://www.librarising.com/astrology/misc/wholesignhouses.html

Cosmobiology, which was founded by Reinhold Ebertin, doesn't use house systems either.

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 21, 2009 12:46 AM            

in Placidus,Koch,and Equal House, I have the conjunction of 4th/7th house ruler Jupiter and 7th house ruler Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd house oppose retrograde 5th/6th house ruler Saturn in Gemini in 9th squaring the 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 6th house.

with whole sign house system,
the conjunction of 4th/7th house ruler Jupiter and 7th house ruler Neptune in Sagittarius in 4th house oppose retrograde 5th/6th house rueler Saturn in Gemini in 10th house squaring the 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 7th house.

The whole sign house system t-square fits because I had confusion about my roots because of my multiracial ancestry,not knowing my father nor his family,not knowing my maternal grandmother nor her family. Problems with career and relationships too. The t-square with 4th house indicates my dysfunctional family background that includes mental illness and alcoholism/drug addiction on both my mother's side and my father's side.
Retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 10th fit with the structure that I had in the navy, but also the depression connected to it. Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in opposition to it fits with the navy,living on a boat,and working and living on the water. The opposition squaring my Moon in Pisces fits with not only the depression/anxiety and my wanting to be free, but also my problems with relationships. I felt navy life interfered with relationships too. I felt like I couldn't have a stable relationship when I was in the navy. I wanted to get married and have children,and I felt the navy interfered with that.

I thought the t-square in the Placidus,Koch,Equal house systems with the 3rd,9th,6th house indicate my problems with school,education and learning issues, but I think the indicators could be shown in the whole sign house system

the conjunction of 1st/10th house ruler Mercury in Scorpio conjunct 2nd/9th house ruler Venus in Scorpio (detrimental Venus) in 3rd house square the 3rd/8th house ruler Mars in Aquarius in 6th.
I also have 12th house ruler Sun in Scorpio in 3rd quincunx retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 10th. Those aforementioned configurations can indicate my history of problems when it comes to speech,learning,communication,education,and self esteem. I was lucky to get early intervention for my special education needs,and that even helped me be a good student too. That's the 12th house ruler Sun in Scorpio trine 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 7th. It could fit with being gifted in communication,intelligence. All the aforementioned stuff combined could fit with the "twice exceptional" which is a term that's been used for somebody that's both gifted but has an information processing difficulty.

also adding Pluto's big fellow transneptunians seem to fill in blanks too
My Ixion in Scorpio conjunct my Sun in 3rd house with only 5 minutes of arc and trine my Moon in Pisces in 7th with 2'15 orb, and that could indicate thought processes,communication,learning that's nonconformist,deep,and otherworldly. Evolutionary intensified lessons in those areas.
My Makemake in Leo in 12th square my Mercury in Scorpio with 2'01 orb, and that also adds to the theme of the evolutionary intensified lessions, nonconformity,deep,and otherworldly when it comes to thought processes,communication,and learning. With the square, it can be a major issue.
My Venus in Scorpio in 3rd trine Orcus in Cancer in 11th with 41 minutes of also can add to the aforementioned theme. All that might also fit with the twice exceptional theme.

Neptune squaring my 3rd/8th house ruler Mars and sextile my 3rd house ruler Pluto in 2nd can easily account for me being able to relate to Neptune in 3rd which is about the imaginative,receptive,visualizing type of mind as well as confusion,distortion,misunderstandings when it comes to communications,learning.
Of course, my Mercury parallels Neptune too as well as conjunct my Sun/Neptune midpoint.
In regular astrology, I can just stop at the aspects to the co-rulers of my 3rd house,Mars and Pluto. My 12th house ruler Sun in 3rd house could also add to the theme.

damn! This makes a lot of sense to me!

I am strongly considering using whole sign house system now.

Valus uses it too.

In my Vedic Chart
I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in 3rd just like in my whole sign house chart

I have Lunar Nodes in 6th/12th house like in my whole sign house chart

I have Moon in 7th house like in my whole sign house chart

I have Jupiter in 4th house like in my whole sign house chart

I have retrograde Saturn in 10th like in my whole sign house chart.

I could relate to the Vedic interpretations for the house placements.

the lunar nodes are interpreted differently because they refer to them as Rahu and Ketu. They interpret them like outerplanets which they don't use in their system.

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"