posted September 22, 2009 01:10 PM         

Whole Sign Houses Now Available on Astro.com

Many of the younger and newer generations of astrologers that have recently entered into the field in the past decade or so are aware of the importance of Astrodienst (www.astro.com). For many people, such as myself, Astrodienst has played a pivotal role in facilitating the study of astrology through the many services that the company offers through their website. This includes stuff like offering informative articles, ephemerides, high quality delineations, and, perhaps most importantly, free chart calculation services. For people who are just getting into the study of horoscopic astrology, or even those who only have a passing interest, being able to get an accurate copy of your birth chart is an incredibly important step. Thanks to the guys at Astrodienst, the ability to do this is actually something that many of us take for granted at this point, since they have been offering free chart calculations to the public for well over a decade now. This simple service has actually had a profound effect on hundreds of astrologers, because there are many people whose study of astrology would not be possible, or which would be hindered significantly if not for the service that they offer.

Several years ago I joined the growing number of astrologers who have made the switch to using whole sign houses as our primary form of house division. Since I have already discussed the benefits and history behind this approach in previous articles I won’t go into it here. Needless to say, after making the switch and becoming an advocate of whole sign houses I was somewhat disappointed that astro.com didn’t offer this as an option for house division in its extended chart selection on their website. That is to say, you couldn’t get a normal copy of a chart from astro.com that displayed the positions using whole sign houses.

I brought the issue up with the guys at astro.com a couple of times over the past few years, and even pointed out that Rob Hand, whose delineations form the backbone of their personal daily horoscope transit delineations, is one of the major contemporary proponents of whole sign houses. Earlier this year I even contemplated starting a petition in order to try to show that there are indeed a growing number of astrologers who prefer this approach. This was to no avail though, until recently.

chrisbrennanlecture01The United Astrological Conference took place a couple of months ago in Denver in May, and due to a strange twist of events I ended up filling in for Robert Schmidt as a core presenter on the history track, giving two two lectures on Hellenistic astrology. During the first lecture on an intro to Hellenistic astrology I noticed one person in the audience who I sort of recognized, but I couldn’t quite figure out who it was. At one point after the lecture I was walking out of a coffee shop and I ran into the same guy again, and after noticing his name tag I immediately realized who he was. It was Alois Treindl, the founder and director of Astrodienst, and he was surrounded by a number of other important people from astro.com.
astrodienstteam01

Alois, Juri & Dieter

For me this was the equivalent of being in the presence of rock stars, and I had this very surreal moment of realizing that the guys who had been so pivotal in my own early studies of astrology had attended my lecture at UAC. As we talked Alois said that I had finally convinced them to integrate whole sign houses into astro.com, and they had been discussing the technical details of how to do it after sitting in on my first lecture. I was ecstatic, in a very geeky sort of way. This was definitely one of the main high points of the conference for me because it was something that I had been hoping that they would do for several years, and I was pleased to have been able to present a compelling enough case to them in person in order to make it happen.

Recently I noticed that they have indeed integrated whole sign houses into the extended chart selection on astro.com, and I am pleased to announce that whole sign houses are now an official option on astro.com! hoorayforwholesignhouses02Hellenistic, Medieval and Indian astrologers around the world are dancing in the streets, no longer oppressed by the tyranny of Placidus houses. Please join me in thanking the Astrodienst team!
http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/07/25/whole-sign-houses-now-available-on-ast rocom/

I really like his points on whole sign houses. They really make sense. All house systems besides the whole sign houses were based on errors. The whole sign house system is the original house system. The zodiac signs and houses were meant to strongly correspond with each other. Therefore, interpreting i.e. Mars in Scorpio and Mars in 8th house as the same is valid. Whole sign aspects were used by Ptolemy just like they are used in Hellenic and Vedic Astrological systems. The discovery of the outer planets and Pluto made the use of whole sign aspects more complicated. It's no wonder that those systems don't use the outerplanets.

I like to do Astrology based on logic,common sense,and facts. Of course, I adapt my Astrology to the discoveries of Astronomy. That includes not only the use of centaurs,transneptunians,and asteroids, but also the use of Right Ascension and Declination. Many other astrologers have done it any way. The ancient astrologers didn't use Uranus,Neptune,nor Pluto because they weren't discovered yet. Those objects are regularly used in mainstream Astrology. Therefore, it's highly obvious that astrologers have adapted to astronomical discoveries. Astronomically oriented astrologers like Philip Sedgwick even go beyond mainstream astrology and work with Heliocentric Astrological system,galactic Astrology(black holes,qusars,pulsars,x-rays)

Now going back to the past, I am considering using the whole sign house system. Why use other house systems that are based on errors? I use house systems like Placidus and Koch that are useless for locations with very high latitudes and even make the houses of slighltly lower latitudes than that look lopsided like in the case of Ann-Margret who was born in Sweden. I believe that house systems need to be consistent. Cosmobiology founder, Reinhold Ebertin didn't deal with that mess. His system doesn't use a house system. The Cosmobiologists seem to think that their system works very fine without them. I guess the use of midpoint pictures take the place of houses. There are mainstream astrologers that use midpoints in correlation with mainstream Astrology. Mixing two systems together. The problems there is a lack of inconsistency in Astrology to begin with. The evidence is the many disagreements in Astrology about what to use and how to use it. No wonder Astrology isn't recognized by Science.
It only seems that non-zodiac astrological studies seem to show any validity including especially the work of Michel Gauquelin. Dr.
Theodor Landscheidt devised golden section aspects in Astrology,and he used them in his climatology work. The works of these guys didn't involve the zodiac signs and houses. Johannes Kepler didn't believe in the zodiac signs nor houses, and he opened up a can of worms by devising minor aspects which were based on musical harmonics.

Honestly, I am not sure if zodiac signs are even valid. We have Sidereal Zodiac. There are some belief that Sidereal Zodiac was the original Zodiac. The Sidereal Zodiac and the Tropical Zodiac said to be aligned, and through precession, they drift apart. Ptolemy adopted the Tropical Zodiac, saying it involve the seasons. However, those were the northern hemisphere seasons. He didn't know about the southern hemisphere, and so the northern hemisphere seasons didn't apply to people born in southern hemisphere. That's how I view the monk,Placidus. He created the Placidus system, and he devised it without knowing about the Arctic and Antarctic regions that have the most extreme latitudes. As for why Koch devised a system that didn't account for those regions, all I can do is shake my head.

I believe that if a house system is created,it should be able to apply to every location. The same thing with the zodiac.

The original zodiac had more than 12 signs too. The Babylonians had more more than 12 signs in their system before. They had 18.

I wonder why not create a house system based on the 13 zodiac constellations on the ecliptic, but what about Pluto that moves 17 degrees away from the ecliptic and so enters other constellations? Even Mercury also can enter other constellations that are not on the ecliptic. Many centaurs,asteroids,and transneptunians do too.

The Placidus house system was created before the outerplanets were discovered too.

Koch house system was created before the highly eccentric orbiting Chiron was discovered. Chiron's fellow centaurs weren't discovered then. Pluto's fellow centaurs weren't discovered then. At the time the Koch system was created, Pluto's moon,Charon wasn't even discovered. That means that Pluto was still thought to be as large as our Earth at the time. Yes..Pluto was once thought to be as big as our planet. It was the discovery of Charon that made it possible for astronomers to discover Pluto's actual size and mass.

The only reason why Pluto was discovered was because it was on the ecliptic at the time. It tends to orbit well off the ecliptic.

the astrologers that created these house systems didn't take into account the highly elliptical orbits of certain objects like Pluto.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 01:16 PM         

Whole Sign Houses:
the original house system

In no other area of astrology is there so much mess and confusion than in the area of the so-called "houses". There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity.

The more commonly known house systems are: Whole signs(oldest), Equal House(1st century BC), Porphyry(3rd century AD), Alcabitus(6th century), Campanus(13th century), Regiomantus(14th century), Placidus(17th century), and Koch(20th century). Others include: Meridian(Midheaven), Topocentric, Morinus, Horizontal, Geodetic, Zodiacal, Svarogish, Krusinski, and so on.

In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains, are supposed to represent general areas of life activity. They are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for the planets. There are generally twelve houses, although in extreme northern or southern lattitudes there can be ten, depending on the house system used.

In modern astrology, two important points or "angles" are generally used in the construction of houses; the ascendant degree which begins the first house, and the Midheaven degree which starts the tenth house. At equatorial latitudes these two points are generally 90 degrees apart, but the further one moves north or south the greater or lesser the distance between them, resulting in uneven and sometimes intercepted(invisible) houses.

The most common house system in use today is the Placidus system named after Placidus de Tito of the 17th century. In this system, like most others, the ascending degree starts the first house and the midheaven degree starts the tenth house. The remaining houses are then trisected on a time arc basis rather than space. The problem is the houses distort or intercept in extreme latitudes.

It seems human nature always veers towards the more complex ideas or notions in any field, ignoring the truer and simpler ones. Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable or meant the same thing. A planet in Aries was also a planet in the house of Aries, so that in effect. there were no real houses as we know them today.

The artificial divisions we now know as houses were attempts by the early Greeks and the Hindus to measure strength "points" in the horoscope, which at some point in time(7th and 8th centuries AD) were construed or confused as means of dividing the birth chart. The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites, for example, were definite power points or areas of intense focus, but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant.

In fact, there is no real basis for the astrological houses at all. They derive from a misunderstanding of the true nature of the Ascendant and Midheaven factors in astrology, the former representing the Earth or terrestial sphere, and the latter representing the Sky, Heaven, or celestial sphere. The Ascendant is planet Earth, and the Midheaven(MC) has as its source, the Earth's inner central sun. The IC(Imum Coeli) and the descendant are merely opposite or reflex points.

If any house system should be used at all, it should be the Whole Sign House system, where the ascendant sign becomes the whole first house and the others follow. The ascendant point can then fall anywhere in the first house and the midheaven point anywhere in the upper half of the chart. The Ascendant and Midheaven, in effect, become PLANETS, which is what they truly are, and because we live on planet Earth, it is the FIRST house or primary habitation. For a description of what the houses really mean, see here http://www.librarising.com/astrology/fwa/basics2.html

The Whole Sign House system was used by the ancient Greeks and the Hindus(who still use it today). It is the oldest and simplest house system in existence, and immediateley eliminates the awful mess astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so.

For a full explanation on whole sign houses see here. http://classicalastrology.tribe.net/thread/4f214879-77d3-41e2-8365-50f5f753761d
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/misc/wholesignhouses.html

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 02:07 PM         

You're welcome!

Yeah...I checked for myself.

Koch

A rather more complicated version of the Placidus system, built on equal increments of Right Ascension for each quadrant. The Koch system was developed by the German astrologer Walter Koch (1895-1970) and is defined only for latitudes between 66°N and 66°S. This system is popular among research astrologers in the U.S. and among German speakers, but in Central Europe lost some popularity to the Krusiński house system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_%28astrology%29

Koch

Originated by Walter Koch in the nineteen-sixties, the Koch house system is probably the modern system which has gained the most momentum – not rising enough to rival Placidus in any way, but certainly gaining more acceptance than other new systems.

The principle is similar to Placidus (trisection of semiarcs), and the limitations are similar – it can't be applied to high latitude areas.

The mathematical principles behind it are far from being magnificent, and only the future will tell if Koch is one of many fads or if it will stay. However, as discussed before, these things often have more to do with personal influence and marketing skills than with the soundness of the formulae involved. http://astrology.clairvision.org/static/astrologymanual/Astrological_house_systems_a_comparison.html

Here is a chart done with Koch system for Arctic Bay,Canada which is located at 72 degrees North Latitude,and so located higher than 66 degrees Latitude,and so out of the Koch house system's range.

As you see, it automatically calculates an Equal House chart. Solar Fire can't calculate a Koch house system chart higher than 66 degrees Latitude.

the same with Placidus

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 02:15 PM         

Well, I have been at that point several times, and somehow returned to Placidus.

Glaucus,

posted September 22, 2009 02:16 PM         

her houses are lopsided

These are charts that I would feel uneasy to look at

Her chart with Koch house system

Her chart with Placidus house system

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ann-Margret

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 02:19 PM         

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 02:37 PM         

as to the "lopsided" houses in the extreme lats, is that not realistic in the sense that the sun's angle is more extreme there too? ie, the midnight sun phenomenon and its opposite...

posted September 22, 2009 02:46 PM         

which one do you prefer?"

I am starting to prefer the whole sign house system.

I have even done my next solar return with the whole sign house system. Sun-Mercury-Ceres in 1st in whole sign house system instead of the 12th that it is in the Placidus,Koch house system

I am going to monitor my transits in the whole sign house system too.

I want to monitor Jupiter's movement...especially when it leaves the 6th house and enters my 7th house January 17th of next year. My Moon is in 3'11 Pisces in the 7th house in the whole sign house system. My Descendant is in 13'27 Pisces. I would like to see how that works.

my whole sign house system natal chart seems to fit me a lot more.....especially t-square involving 4th,10th,and 7th houses. I went over that in the Koch house system thread.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 03:06 PM         

I once made an interpretation for someone, I had just met, using both, the Placidus and the Equal houses.
She is from sweden, with ASC on 15 Cancer and IC on 14 Leo.
Yet, reading my interpretation, she clearly decided that the Placidus one portrayed her the best.

posted September 22, 2009 03:09 PM         

Good point.

there is significant difference between Koch and Placidus house system. her 6th and 12th houses are huge in Placidus house system. In Koch house, her 5th and 11th houses are the largest houses in her chart.

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 03:25 PM         

Pluto in Libra
1st house in Equal House
2nd house in Whole Sign House

Uranus in Libra
2nd house house in both

Sun-Ixion-Quaoar conjunction in Scorpio
2nd house in Equal
3rd house in Whole Sign

Mercury-Venus conjunction in Scorpio
3rd house in both

Jupiter-Neptune conjunction in Sagittarius
3rd house in Equal
4th house in Whole Sign

Lunar Nodes in Aquarius/Leo
5th/11th house in Equal
6th/12th house in Whole Sign

Mars in Aquarius
6th house in both

Moon in Pisces
6th house in Equal
7th house in Whole Sign

Eris in Aries
7th house in Equal
8th house in Whole Sign

Sedna in Taurus
8th house in Equal
9th house in Whole Sign

Saturn-Varuna conjunction in Gemini
9th house in Equal
10th house in Whole Sign

Orcus in Cancer
11th house in both

Ceres-Makemake conjunction in Leo
12th house in both

Haumea in Virgo
12th house in Equal
1st house in Whole Sign

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 09:21 PM         

WHOLE SIGN HOUSES: THE OLDEST HOUSE SYSTEM - Robert Hand, $7.95
Contents:

Preface

The oldest house system:
Whole sign houses
The notion of place or Topos
The horoscope
"Plaecs" aspecting the horoscopic sign
Angular houses versus "malefic" aspects
The origin of "benefic" and "malefic" aspects
Historical development
The problem of Julius Firmicus Maternus
The advent of the modern type of house system
A modern solution to the midheaven problem
The modern practice with whole sign houses
Whole-sign houses or places computed from lots
The whole sign house "cusps"
Examples
Conclusions
Chart data & sources

Appendicies:
1. Horary astrology & whole sign houses
2. Glossary of terms
3. Are only the major (Ptolemaic) aspects valid?

Index

Comment:

In the whole sign house system, the degree of the zodiac found on the ascendant is not the beginning of the first house, which extends before as well as after the cusp. The first house - and all the other houses in the chart - start with 0 degrees & end with 30 degrees of the sign in question. The degree on the cusp is the most intense point of the house. The degree on the other house cusps is generally taken to be the same as the ascending degree, eg, whole sign houses resemble equal houses, the difference is that equal houses start & end at the cusp, whole sign houses start at 0 degrees of the sign on the cusp & end 30 degrees later. This means the midheaven (MC) is unrelated to any house cusp, there are no intercepted signs nor intercepted houses. This small book is an expansion & revision of articles that originally appeared in The Mountain Astrologer in 1999.

Arhat, 48 pages, comb-bound.
http://www.astroamerica.com/arhat.html

somebody is trying to sell it for 60 dollars here!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002OGYN2O/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&qid=1253668820&sr=8-1&condition=new

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 09:56 PM         

This is my Whole Sign House Chart:

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 23, 2009 09:14 AM         

Yes..I identify more with the whole sign houses.....especially when I read about Neptune in 4th for better or worse. I couldn't identify with Jupiter in 4th much in regards to the the good stuff, and that's because Saturn in 10th is in opposition to my Jupiter in 4th. Jupiter in Sagittarius in 4th does fit in regards to multicultural/mulitracial household and roots. It was my mom,my stepfather,2 half Japanese stepsisters,and I that lived together for a few years. 9th house ruler (Venus) in my 3rd fits with my 3 half Japanese stepsisters too. One of them was born in Japan.

"Personally I find it very difficult to decide, cause I know that people, of course including me, too, are so subjective. It`s really hard to say this IS so and this isn`t. Especially if there are other aspects that could lead to a similiar conclusion."

Exactly,and that's why I've been using Placidus regularly. I really felt that the t-square involving the 3rd,9th,6th houses fit me.....especially when it comes to my education difficulties,work difficulties, and my mother's health problems.
Just my Moon in t-square with Saturn-Neptune opposition could indicate my mom's health problems. hard Saturn-Neptune aspects are known for health problems. Also..if using Saturn as traditional ruler of Aquarius, it rules my 6th house because Aquarius is my 6th house. Therefore,my 6th house ruler Saturn is in 10th oppose the conjunction of the ruler of my 4th house ruler Jupiter and Neptune in 4th house. That would indicate my mom's health problems big time. They could indicate mine too for that matter.

Traditional House rulerships seem to work well. Robert Hand suggests not using the outer planets for house rulerships too.
I admit that I always felt a little uncomfortable using outerplanets as house rulers, especially now with the discoveries of the transneptunian objects. There are astrologers that believe that Chiron rules Virgo even though it's only a centaur. I feel that Ceres is a better fit for ruler of Virgo than Chiron. The Virgo constellation was even known as Demeter by the Greeks.
I do feel that I am better off just using only the traditional rulerships.

I think that I have been influenced by Vedic Astrology.

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 23, 2009 10:12 AM         

Yeah. That's what I was saying. People that used the whole sign house system use house rulerships extensively. They use only the traditional rulerships.

Vedic Astrologers definitely do. They put great importance on house rulerships.
Their yoga combinations include house rulerships. Examples are raja yogas (a planet rules a kendra house and a planet rules a trikona house are conjunct in a house). If a planet rules a kendra house and a trikona house. Then that is called yoga karaka. My Mars is yoga karaka because it is rules my 9th (a trikona) and my 4th (a kendra). A yoga karaka placement is supposed to give great beneficial results in the house it's in. Mine is in 7th,and so it has to do with relationships. It conjuncts my 12th house ruler Moon in 7th and 6th/7th house ruler Saturn in 10th aspects the conjunction. Therefore, mixed results. Mars in 7th is one of the kuja dosha placements too, but I think Mars as my yoga karaka mitigates it.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 24, 2009 03:23 PM         

I have also decided to convert to Whole Sign House system. I really like it. I think that it really fits too. It seems more logical to use and most of all, it's consistent. I don't have to worry about uneven,distorted,lopsided houses nor intercepted signs/houses.

I think the main thing when using whole sign house is to focus more on house rulerships and just use the traditional sign rulerships. That is something that Robert Hand believes. He actually doesn't believe in using modern sign rulerships with the houses.
I always thought they were a bit iffy.
I can see why Vedic Astrologers nor Classical,Hellenistic Astrologers don't use them.

the can of worms was opened when dwarf planet, Pluto was given rulership of Scorpio.
But what about the 4 other dwarf planets, Eris,Makemake,Haumea,Ceres as well as the dwarf planet candidates, Sedna,Orcus,Quaoar,Varuna,and Ixion?

also giving Pluto ruler of Scorpio broke the traditional ruler assignment pattern. According to the traditional ruler assignment pattern, Pluto should be ruler of Aries and not Scorpio.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 24, 2009 05:47 PM         

quote:

---

I wonder why not create a house system based on the 13 zodiac constellations on the ecliptic

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