posted October 04, 2009 02:35 PM         

" The true division of humanity is between those who live in light and those who live in darkness....But to talk of light is not necessary to talk of joy. One may suffer in the light; its excess burns....To burn without ceasing to fly, that is the achievement of genius. When you have reached the stage of knowing and loving you will still suffer. The day is born in tears. The enlightened weep, if only for those still in the darkness." Victor Hugo

The past two weeks we’ve been talking about the upcoming Saturn Pluto square and what they will mean to each of us. Next week, we’ll tackle how Saturn and Pluto feel and what we can do to work with the energy productively. This week, we are going back to discuss the ongoing Saturn and Uranus opposition as Mercury highlights it as well as Venus.

I’ve been accused of having a bit of a Polly Anna or “hokey” approach to planets and the energies they bring into our lives. Perhaps this is true. When I first started studying astrology, I was continually struck by the approach of “You have a rotten chart/ aspect/ planetary configuration so you get to live with it. There is NO redemption!” It seemed to me that there must be SOME solution (see Anne’s Virgo Sun trying to “fix” things!). Maybe another way to approach the energy positively? Where was redemption? The person and the chart configurations they were born into existed for a reason. What to do with an understanding that for every thing there is a season? If there is a time for every thing under heaven, WHY did your soul pick THAT particular time?

Sometimes astrologers will blame your past lives for the pickles you’ve found yourself in during this lifetime. While blaming past lives for negative karma is a very cool concept, it doesn’t help people who struggle and try to live and work to resolve THAT karma in THIS lifetime! My favorite astrologer Raymond says “Priests and astrologers shouldn’t reference past lives if they can’t do anything about them! They need to focus on helping folks live in the current life!”

Thus began my ongoing quest to understand and reframe some of the more negative experiences or difficult aspects with a different approach. I decided the chart is an energy system. The Pinball approach (see the article on this site) is one method I use. The others vary depending on the situation. The idea is to see the energy as a bundle of fluid that needs to be used up. If you use up the energy with your work, there is less to “spill over” in your personal life. You still will have the difficult energy in your chart. You can learn to work with it productively with knowledge, time and effort.

Saturn and Uranus are having a cosmic face off between 2008 and 2010. We are in the middle of their fight, with the third opposition taking place last month, September 15, while Mercury was retrograde. Saturn was direct and Uranus was retrograde for opposition three ~ meaning Saturn won, ~ conservatives beat the changes proposed by Uranus.

Now Mercury is direct and moving over Uranus and Saturn again this week. Venus is also moving over Uranus and Saturn this week and next. The two of them are going to talk to us about what that conservative energy truly means versus the change energy proposed and some what rejected by Uranus. Your job is to listen carefully and to take a trip down memory lane to look at the structures in your life that still need adjustment.

It seemed appropriate to take some of my earlier writings on their opposition and present them again. So, if you received my Newsletter last fall, you may recognize what follows.

Saturn is the ringed planet in charge of virtually every single structure in your life as well as our world.

Uranus is the wild and crazy guy, the planet which pushes you to seek freedom, be original, creative, unusual or inventive. Discipline, structure versus Chaos, change.

Some of the words that characterize Uranus are invention, originality, offbeat, deviation, evolve & develop potential, frank, explorative, inquisitive, unconventional, informal, spontaneous, reckless, impatient, eccentric, inconstant, perverse, rebellious, willful, ruthless, capricious, unusual, the awakener, being awake, freedom, divine discontent, science, magic, astrology, occult, light, x-rays, airplanes, futuristic, humanitarian, computers, groups, intellectual, bohemian, egotistical, utopian. Creativity of new and unusual, sudden change, revolution, explosions, individualism, ingenuity, rebellions. Sudden, unexpected, violent, deviant, breaker of traditions. Earthquakes, sudden breaks, divorces, freedom, I got to be me. Electricity, higher nervous system, body electricity, and ankles.

Some of the words that characterize Saturn are urges for structure, control, regulation, security, safety, tradition and authority. Where you are oppressed, depressed, & repressed in your life, disciplined, form, responsibility, organization, ambition, capacity for a career, limitations, sorrows, government, delays, father, authority figures, adherence to systems designed by society for greater/common good, older people, theories, scientific law, depth, patience, timing, tradition, conventionality, orthodox, productive use of time, truth, a spade is a spade, wisdom, aging, slow & lasting, task master. Inadequate, overcompensation, humility, humor, humble, realistic, practical, protective, stable, persevering, thrifty, strict, reserved, focused, dedicated, regular, obedient, rigid, moderate, methodical, rational, scrupulous. Prudent, reliable, critical, unimaginative, stubborn, suspicious, melancholic, depressed, fatalistic, dominating, merciless. Your skin, teeth, skeletal system, ligament, knees, left ear, auditory organs, gall bladder, parathyroid glands, body proteins all answer to Saturn. Where you find Saturn is where you feel inadequate and have a need to overcompensate or overcome. Often ultimately Saturn is the source of our greatest strength.

Imagine now, taking a word from each of the lists above and trying to find a compromise position. It is not easy to do. They are not particularly compatible in their energies or approaches.

Saturn and Uranus are arguing across a section of your chart, the Virgo Pisces Section. The point of their argument is to break down old structures in your life that are finished, completed, or which need to change. The point of their argument is to help you evolve to your next chapter.

Often when oppositions take place in the sky, one person will act as Uranus while the other person assumes the role of Saturn. In every situation or interaction before you, determine who is Uranus and who is Saturn.

If you are in the role of Uranus ~ know you are going to win. The change IS going to happen. It is a matter of when and how. Keep moving. Keep evolving. Go with the flow. Be gentle yet strong when the fear or resistance of Saturn appears. Relax and go with the flow. Push. Push. Push. Transformation and evolution is before you. Gently push.

If you are in the role of Saturn ~ know the situation IS going to change. Your existing structure is shifting and changing. It is time for it to change. If you resist, it will be more difficult. If you are afraid, it will be harder. Please don't act out of fear. Take active responsibility to help the change before you take place. If you act out of fear, you'll lose. If you step up to the situation, address it and assume responsibility, you can influence it.

In some situations, you are going to be Uranus ~ seeking freedom and breaking out. In other situations, you are going to be Saturn ~ assume responsibility and act accordingly. Be flexible and disciplined in your approach. Try and swing back and forth between the two polarities to help the process along.

Astrology is all about cycles. The current Saturn Uranus cycle has been going on for a while.

The current cycle started back in 1988.

Think back to what was going on in your life around February 12, 1988, June 26, 1988 and October 18 1988. What was going on in your life back then? How does it relate to right now? What you are releasing, changing or letting go of right now as we speak that is related to that earlier time in your life? Tie in the story from the triangular issue you've been working on wrapping up since December 2007, early January 2008 and from June 2008 to now. All part of the same cycle ripening before your eyes.

Your journey was put to good, hard work on May 19, 1996, November 10, 1996 and March 1, 1997. How did you start to expand in your life? How were you moving further into the group or journey you are looking at right now?

You were asked to adjust, change or revise the story on July 17, 1999, November 14, 1999 and May 13, 2000. Those difficult challenges helped you clarify what you needed to do to evolve and grow. The struggle between Saturn and Uranus involved you evaluating the fixed, stable, retentive and solid earth area of your life to see where it wanted to move to serve the greater group, your hopes and dreams as it sought to be free. The freedom place is tied to where you are expanding right now. Often the tests that took place between the Summer of 1999 to Spring of 2000 served to clarify and refine the choices before you now.

You had a payoff, initial success or easy flowing reaction and freedom once you started to explore other options, examine the dual nature of your choices and talk more about what you wanted to do. The dates for the early rewards were August 21, 2002, December 16, 2002 and June 24, 2003. The period between Fall 2002 to Summer 2003 moved you forward on your path.

Now you face the challenge of releasing yourself to the next phase. You've grown. You are ready to break free. You are ready to create the next structure that supports the next stage of your growth. Things will leave your life now that are finished. Things will arrive in your life that are part of your future journey.

If you were alive in the 1960s, reflect on how the changes that went on between April 1, 1965, August 27, 1965, February 23, 1966, November 8, 1966 and January 6, 1967 are so very similar to what you are experiencing now but reversed somehow.

As we are halfway through the changes offered by Saturn’s opposition to Uranus, in the middle place so to speak, reflection often helps us clarify what we want to do or where we want to go. In the months ahead, Pluto joins in to the story, pushing for the psychological and personal transformation we need to complete the cycle with consciousness.

Life, when understood as a series of cycles, makes a great deal of sense. We think we are “different” than the plants and animals we see growing before us in phased and recognizable cycles. In fact, we are not so different. We might not pay attention to it but we are the same. It also helps us know that the difficult times in our lives will pass, as transits always do. A new season will arrive soon.

The week ahead has Mercury and Venus working with Saturn and Uranus, helping us tie their larger journey and cycle into where we are now in our life. With that knowledge, we can move forward with Saturn into Libra more confidently. Mercury also makes his third pass, carrying information between Saturn and Pluto, for their upcoming journey all next year. Lots of information will be revealed this week. Pay attention.

Monday Moon is void in the morning in Aries so while you might feel a burst of energy and want to accomplish things, wait to send stuff out until the afternoon when the Moon moves into Taurus mid-day. Taurus moon over the next few days has GREAT aspects, ending with a trine to Saturn on Wednesday ~ perfect for getting stuff accomplished and out the door, proposals proposed, offers made and forward action taken. The heavens further support action with mercury in positive declination aspect to Venus. You might want to do things with different partners or in different ways than your usual suspects. Try new things. Pluto wants to change it up a bit. Breaking or seeing old patterns or habits is totally supported ~ especially those around food or how you feel nurtured. Mercury will rather dispassionately point out things to you. Take his information under advisement. Think about it. Don’t dismiss it out of hand. Things that look ready for a change completely are ready for a change.

Tuesday doesn’t have many aspects. However the Moon is exalted and square to Jupiter so a great deal can be accomplished if you put your mind to it. Mars offers a hand so accept partnerships or offers of support that come your way. Say yes to things. You don’t have to do it all by yourself any more. No more alone in the corner. Look for cooperation and partnership opportunities that feel supportive and caring.

Wednesday Pluto bring crazy dreams or sudden changes to your home or hearth. Lots of energy about needing to take action to relieve stress. Take action especially in the morning, bright and early as Moon jumps you out of bed and into your day with a trumpet clarion. Note your dreams upon arising. Or listen carefully if someone tells you that they had a dream about you. Moon is void in the afternoon, 1:19 pm to 5:46 pm east coast time so schedule routine cleanup activities for then. Moon moves into Gemini in the evening where it will feel quite besieged over the next few days. Your job was to use the first part of the week to get stuff done. Next up, it becomes the hard part of the week as Mercury and Venus stimulate the Uranus/ Saturn / Pluto energies. The opposition is alive and well! Saturn is ready to growl. Ouch. Mercury aspects the Nodes of Destiny so pay attention to what you hear, see or meet today. Saturn wants you figuring out how your early childhood experiences made you who you are. There was a gift in that childhood of yours. Do you see what it was? Do you see how the wound you had back then, when you were little, created the skill set and talents you have today? Venus says she didn’t NEED the wound to get it ~ but that is how the universe teaches us. The pushes and pulls of life make us who we are.

Thursday Back to the quote that opened the column. This is when it becomes important to re-read it ~ " The true division of humanity is between those who live in light and those who live in darkness....But to talk of light is not necessary to talk of joy. One may suffer in the light; its excess burns....To burn without ceasing to fly, that is the achievement of genius. When you have reached the stage of knowing and loving you will still suffer. The day is born in tears. The enlightened weep, if only for those still in the darkness." Victor Hugo

Mercury is quite busy today as he joins with Saturn while we sleep. Pay attention to your dreams upon awakening. Also listen to the news or any information you receive very carefully. Mercury is carrying messages from Saturn to Pluto for the third and final time. There is a wounding energy to the news, even as the pattern becomes clearer. As my friend Caroline Casey says, “Tyranny loves a fight! Tyranny loves it when you struggle with it! Struggle, struggle! Ummmm feels good!” Struggle feeds tyranny and gets it all hot and bothered. Struggle makes tyranny justify its bad behavior by pointing to “struggle” as the cause. No struggle today. Just a quiet “Mm that’s not working for me.” and disengage. Walk away. Pay attention. Don’t turn your back on them as you walk away ~ Cowards will stab you in the back. Back away with your eyes on them. And a quiet disengagement. Again note the patterns. Mercury is practically SHOUTING at you to get the pattern. Do you see it? When you see it, you can stop it.

Friday sucks. Moon in Gemini is very, very hassled. She has a pile of hard aspects to just about every other planet in the sky, particularly the big fellows. Moon in Gemini has trouble keeping her focus as all sorts of things pull at her, nag at her or demand her attention. Your job today is to get through it. Alive. And in a good humor if possible. Remember every ONE else is having a stressed out day too. Mars triggers the Nodes from the eclipses so we can expect an ouch kind of energy as well as a loss or releasing. Venus is opposite to Uranus so separations from things we love or value is possible. Venus is in an adjusting energy aspect to Neptune suggesting we didn’t anticipate that we would lose this too. The feminine is not happy. Mercury will tell you it is all part of the process. And it is. But some days are just easier than other days. Mercury enters Libra and acquires a bit more of a diplomatic approach to things. He also is carrying a message to Pluto so watch for very important news on this day. You might not LIKE the news, but it is very important. Moon squares or opposes all the heavy hitters in the sky and feels quite emotionally drained. Gemini moons tend to over talk. Remember YOU might have a secret that you are going to spill if you are not careful. Other people are learning secrets too. Don’t assume the other people know what you know. They don’t. So discretion in conversation is advised ~ even as other people are not so discreet near you.

Saturn‘s day finds Moon in emotional Cancer, offering an opportunity to unite with the tribe. Venus opposes Juno so if you fought with partner last night before bed, make an effort to mend it this morning. The entire WORLD was crabby so were both of you. Sun cooperates with Jupiter so expect a bit of abundance today even if you don‘t know quite what to do with it. Mercury delivers tough news to Pluto regarding his upcoming journey with Saturn. Mercury has made three passes between Saturn, Uranus and Pluto. Tie the stories together. The first pass was August 17, 21, and 26. The reverse pass was September 17, 22 and 23. The final pass was October 4, 8, and 10. Link up the story. All the parts are important for your next big phase of life. Look to see the pattern ~ Saturn will help you. It is tied to the area of your life that needs to change.

Sunday Moon in Cancer is occulted by Mars at the degrees of the New Moon eclipse in July. Back to the changes that started then. Now you have an opportunity to take action on them. Moon has supportive aspects today with quite a few of her friends in the sky so it is a good day to accomplish things and get stuff done. Venus is trine to the Nodes so watch for opportunities for romance, money or something you value to arrive in your life. Creation energy is flowing so write down that great idea even if you can’t tackle it just yet. Sun has an aspect of brilliance with Pluto so trust the evolutionary process to unfold as it will. Mercury is in the mood to TEASE today ~ kind of mean teasing too. So be aware that while YOU may think it is funny, the other person just had a rotten week too and isn’t feeling or agreeing with your sense of humor. Be kind. If you wouldn’t want it done to you, don’t do it to others.

posted October 04, 2009 04:58 PM         

quote:

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I was continually struck by the approach of “You have a rotten chart/ aspect/ planetary configuration so you get to live with it. There is NO redemption!”.... Sometimes astrologers will blame your past lives for the pickles you’ve found yourself in during this lifetime. While blaming past lives for negative karma is a very cool concept, it doesn’t help people who struggle and try to live and work to resolve THAT karma in THIS lifetime!

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This is SOOO true and so brilliant...not only in reference to negative things, but also in reference to deterministic astrology of ALL KINDS and why it's so dumb, useless, and unhelpful.

The Soul Mate thing is very much the same--it's, oooohhhh, your Valentine is conjunct his draconic GenericFantasyHypotheticalAstroid in his Solar Arc--so you are SOUL MATES. And, you were SOUL MATES back when you were Cleopatra in your Past Life, so it is Meant to Be!!

No matter if in this REAL life that you are living right now, he is a movie star you've never met and you are a groupie who follows his public appearances...or he is your long-distance boyfriend who will not commit to living together in the same place and you spend your days fantasizing about how that will change because astrology/karma/karmic astrology/your very active fantasy life shows it is "Meant to Be."

posted October 04, 2009 05:11 PM         

can it be you take some of the threads here a bit too personal?

Even though I basically agree with you, there is room for many perspectives.

And yes I agree, we have to live in the NOW, see what really IS and not what we would like there to be.

On the other hand, if you (or actually I) believe in past lives, why not look at these in astrological respects?
What is the harm in that?

And regarding asteroids or DRaconics or whatever there is... you know centuries ago people didn`t know anything about the existence of Uranus or Neptune or Pluto.
Weren`t they valid because we didn`t know about them?

And if, even in retrospect, they were valid, that leaves the question, what else is there that could prove interesting astrologically, what we don`t know about yet?

THAT is at least the reason I do some investigation on asteroids.

But I DO very strongly agree that there are no aspect that "doom" a relationship or an individual person.
We all have a choice in how we express astrological configurations.

VIG,

thanks for this again.

1988? Hmm?

posted October 04, 2009 05:23 PM         

quote:

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...there is room for many perspectives.

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I agree! And internet forums are a place to debate them.

I also agree that it's fascinating to explore and experiment with all kinds of astrological practices.

I just think some of the ways they are applied and used can be really empty, disordered, and fantasy-based. Which is only my opinion, and I wouldn't bring it up if I didn't hope to hear alternative perspectives on it (or on anything else that I discuss here.)

posted October 04, 2009 05:59 PM         

And I can`t help but feel that I may be (partly) the reason for it, as I am posting quite much on celebrities.
But if it indeed is so, and that is actually directed at me, I would have preferred if you addressed me directly.

Anyway, I know that maybe this is just my personal feeling, and you didn`t mean me specifically.

But just in case you did, I wanted to tell you, that I certainly would never deduce from a synastry chart with a complete stranger, that we are "meant to be". Actually I do not believe that any two people are ever meant to be.

But why I am doing this is simple: it`s just a way to learn understanding myself and some rather unexplainable irrational emotional or not emotional reaction to certain people, or even just their reflection on screen, their image.

If they "speak to me" in a way, then there must be something inside myself being receptive to anything they seem to radiate (which probably is a projection of myself, of something that comes from inside myself), and I like to get to know myself better. And that is what happens, when I am doing synastry like this, getting a better understanding of myself and my feelings PLUS I get a better grasp of how astrology can describe feelings or events or even relationships.

But of course I know that such synastries are just onesided, because only I have the awareness that the other person exists, and I don`t even know the person (even though it would be interesting to find out what exactly makes us "know" another person, but that is another topic), so I can only observe my own emotional reaction and see the astrology at work within myself.

But that would never lead me to think in terms of "meant to be".

Past lives. Maybe. But past lives are only interesting in those respects that carry over to our everyday lives.
Personally I think we only remember and only find those past lives experiences reflected in the charts (if at all), that have any meaning for our present life. Be it that there was a lesson to be learnt and to be expressed in this incarnation, be it to understand certain irrational reactions to people or places or events.

In a way it does not even matter, if there was a real past life memory, or if it is just something that came up from the subconsciousness, wrapped up in the form of imagery, which we might think of as a past life (personally I do believe in past lives though).
The important question is: What meaning does it have for our life now? How can the memory or this imagery assist us on our path? What can we learn from it? Or not even learn, but what kind of understanding for ourselves or the world in general can we gain?

On top of that I just love stories, and every past life tells one. I know that is not a very profound and deep thing to say, but it is like it is. I love well told stories.

I got the feeling that you don`t think celebrity marriages are real case studies. I definitely disagree with you here. At least aboiut the fact of the existence of such a marriage. That is undoubtful. Either two people are married or they are not. And then it does not really matter if they are famous or unknown.

Of course we cannot really say anything about the quality within those marriages, about the amount of love or the lack of it.

But then I think we can`t really do that for real life case studies either.
People are hardly ever objective if it comes to their lives and their relationships, so there is no way to obtain an objective perspective on any relationships at all.

Even if people will tell you they are happy in a relationship and feel loved, it might be true or it might not be true.
They could be putting up a facade. Or they could really believe to be happy, but for other subconscious reasons.
Like people (not all, but some) will say when they are deeply unhappy in a relationship and feel unloved and unloving, they will leave.
But what if for some reason they can`t or think they cannot leave? (financial reasons, security reasons, social reasons, whatever).
Some people will not even admit in such situations that they are unhappy. Cause if they admitted that to themselves or to other people, they would feel they needed to leave. But since they don`t want to do that, they will rather make everyone (including themselves) believe, they are happy.

Or people could tell you the truth.

And so on.

I just want to say people are so complex, that it is really difficult to really analyze real case studies properly.

All we can do is look from the outside, and hope we get most of the picture right.

To me, as interesting as the soulmate thought is, it is even more interesting to ask:
What is the astrological common ground in relationships?
And we can only say THAT a relationship formed, but not really, what the quality of it is.

But even more interesting is to see two things:
1. How is each person affected?

2. What "relationship stories" do the planets (and asteroids and Draconics) tell?

Another problem in accessing this kind of study is that we don`t know what methods really work. WE are still in the trial and error phase I think.

posted October 04, 2009 07:51 PM         

quote:

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I didn`t want to offend you by saying I get the feeling this is a very personal subject to you. I just noticed that you emphasize this very much, that fantasy-based celebrity soulmate thingy.

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Yes, yes, very true! I've gone into detail before on Lindaland about why. I would recap, but I'm getting the flu...well, but quick synopsis, a close friend who is well-known had a situation with a deranged fan that scared everyone in his life. It got me obsessed with the issue of fans and celebs, and THEN, just as I was immersed in reading a lot about that issue, I developed unrequited feelings for someone (not a celebrity) for the first time in my life. So of course, I had to ask myself--Am I delusional, like that troubled stalker? (I had Neptune-Sun opposition transit--fun! Actually I learned recently that I was NOT delusional...the guy was just an a--hole.)

I've noticed the approach I rant about in lots of people's posts, so I'm not trying to indirectly address you, although I do very much like it when you happen to respond, since I often find your posts thought-provoking and challenging and full of good astrological insights.

When I characterized the celebrity thing as misguided and fantasy-based, I WAS thinking of one poster in particular...I honestly cannot remember her name...but I felt that she was using ideas about soul families and past lives to fuel a dangerous fantasy of MUTUALITY with the celebrity she was fixated on. That's what bugs me about "soul mate", "soul family" and past life approaches to astrology. I think that for people with those tendencies (i.e., fixating on a celebrity), it is healthier to focus on what is currently being manifested now, in this life.

A prime symptom of de Clérambault's syndrome and other delusional disorders is believing that a one-sided obsession is mutual. The idea that astrology can show soul mate connections allows delusional people to feed that disorder by "proving" mutuality. Most people with delusional fixations are not dangerous. Most cases of the disorder have not been successfully treated with drugs--psychotherapy can help--but the disorder easily ladders into something more dangerous when/if the delusion is encouraged. And having a delusion is not fun or safe for the sufferer, because his/her phony obsession with an image is a way less emotionally (and even physically, I don't think the two can be separated) way to live a life than having deep, real connections in the present moment with people they have a strong mutual connection with.

If someone decides s/he has a past life connection with someone s/he only knows through an image in THIS life, I think that level of delusion can easily be fueled.

This problem does not happen only with celebrities, but celebrities are much more vulnerable to it because a) their images are disseminated everywhere, in a way that feels intimate to fans--they feel they "know" a celeb, and b) many of them are especially charismatic people.

quote:

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I got the feeling that you don`t think celebrity marriages are real case studies.

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I do think celebrity marriages are real case studies. We can't know the truth about them behind the media packaging...but we also can't know the whole story of non-celebrity marriages, either! We can see very important things like how long the couple has lived together, when they've had children together, etc.

Celebrities, like everyone else, have REAL this-life relationships with people they know. When I rant, I'm talking about the people who are fixated on celebrities they do NOT know in real life...and sometimes I am also talking about people who are fixated on people they DO know in real life, but they have fantasized a mutual connection/fatedness when in fact their attachment is one-sided and fantasy-based.

What we can never verify is whether/if some non-famous deranged fan was part of the "Soul Family" in some past life of a movie star s/he has never met.

...and while I sympathize with your love of a good story, I think the undue focus on this aspect of human connection shortchanges our ability to look meaningfully at the aspects of case studies that ARE VERIFYABLE (such as, that a real relationship started in this life...that the couple had a child together on this date...that the couple bought a home together and moved into it...etc.)

I think your questions are very interesting and meaningful. And I think REAL, mutual, this-life relationships (between celebrities and other celebs, non-celebs and non-celebs, or celebs and non-celebs--I personally am not too well-known and lived with a famous man for a while in the past, for example) can and should be separated in these explorations from relationships that do not exist in this life.

I see how it gets complicated (for example, I've mentioned many times on this site the couple I know where he sees her as barely an aquaintance...he knows her but has never once mentioned her over the many intuitive readings I have given him...and she is obsessed with him and sees him as the love of her life and all her love questions in the many readings I've given her have been about him)....but at the same time, I think weighing and analyzing someone's attachment to a stranger's image in the same way that we would look at a real relationship shortchanges our ability to understand real relationships and use synastry meaninfully.

quote:

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But why I am doing this is simple: it`s just a way to learn understanding myself and some rather unexplainable irrational emotional or not emotional reaction to certain people, or even just their reflection on screen, their image.

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This is hard for me to relate to because I think our response to people we have a deep, mutual involvement with...or even a superficial involvement...in real life is so much more powerfully revelatory about our selves than our reaction to an image.

posted October 04, 2009 09:08 PM         

i bet one big "virtual" kiss that you do

lucia,

"This is hard for me to relate to because I think our response to people we have a deep, mutual involvement with...or even a superficial involvement...in real life is so much more powerfully revelatory about our selves than our reaction to an image."

i agree with the idea that real life relationships are more deep, but i can also understand that some people have the capacity to know others that they will never meet or live with emotionally or physically; when u say "reaction to an image" it sounds partial and personal.

posted October 04, 2009 10:22 PM         

I think that's so very different from a groupie fixating on a celebrity, or the other behaviors that ladder into de Clérambault's syndrome and other delusional disorders. But I think I described what I was talking about pretty clearly in my post above. Please clarify a) why what I said sounds "partial and personal" to you, and b) why that somehow, in your eyes, discredits my point--or am I wrong to read that as your implication?

posted October 05, 2009 04:27 AM         

why do you think I have blue eyes?
Is that a way of saying I am a bit, mmh, naive?
I am wondering cause if you call someone blue-eyed in Germany, it really means that this person is very naive and easily mislead.

posted October 05, 2009 09:40 AM         

Now that is a rare thing, you actually left me speechless.

BTW I think you owe me a virtual kiss now.

Lucia,

posted October 05, 2009 02:56 PM         

Merci beaucoup.

(And that is about the amount of French I know. lol)

Tu es trés gentil.

(I apologize if I just butchered that beautiful language with my mistakes)

posted October 06, 2009 10:26 AM         

"t I felt that she was using ideas about soul families and past lives to fuel a dangerous fantasy of MUTUALITY with the celebrity she was fixated on."
I cannot say about anyone else`s feelings and take on this.
To me mutuality only starts existing when you have at least met each other, when you have been in physical approximity to each other (in a spiritual sense this moment when your "energies" can mingle or you sense each other`s energies / auras, however you want to call it, presence maybe).

Synastry with unknown people could nevertheless indicate what potentially is there in the connection and could be triggered if you met.
But of course it is not mutual. As long as only one person is aware of the other one (and I am not only talking about celebrities, but about all people in general here), it is of course onesided.

I have synastry, and I suppose astonishing synastry with a lot of people on this world, which will lay dormant unless we really meet.

Now the special case if only one is aware, that makes for very onesided synastry or connection (well, it is not really a connection, as it is onesided. )

Also, no matter what potentially is there in the charts, we have the possibility of choice.
I think the synastry will still play out according to the aspects and astrological configurations, but it will do so on a different level.

Let`s say there is this Moon-Pluto-aspect.
It could lead to an intense passionate emotional relationship (high level intensity), or it could be felt as a certain feeling of intrigue (which you will forget soon after meeting) or even a feeling annoyance (if you don´t like Moon-Pluto-aspects for example).

There is a wide spectre on which aspects can be felt or expressed, but important is it is not arbitrary. A Moon-Pluto-aspect will never become a Mercury-Venus-one.

"The idea that astrology can show soul mate connections allows delusional people to feed that disorder by "proving" mutuality."
Truely delusional people don`t need astrology for that.

" If someone decides s/he has a past life connection with someone s/he only knows through an image in THIS life, I think that level of delusion can easily be fueled."
Or it could be the truth.

But let me repeat that, even if a person had a past life encounter with someone who in this life happens to have a job that pushes them into the attention of many people, it does not mean they are meant to continue their relationship into this life. Maybe they are not even meant to meet. Or maybe they just experience a different, much more distant form of "relationship", this of fan and artist. Or one of the people is meant to learn the concept of "impossible" and learn to accept it.

I think we have a lot of soulmates. I can imagine that I have a soulmate in Africa for example. Someone I probably never will meet. And It hink you dont´meet all your soulmates.

But I pay attention to these people who cross my path and seem to be important to me (and that can be just by meeting them for 15 minutes; I have learned a lot from some 15 minute talks, and not only the pleasant things. lol).
I think people come into my life for a reason.
I also think that I am emotionally affected by certain music, musicals, films, plays, or even actors for a reason.
And I try to find these reasons, and I think most of the reasons lead me back or are grounded in my own psyche.

Some actors and certain monologues (and it was just the text the writers had given them) have left me crying for hours, cause in this moment they reflected something of myself. NOt because they are like myself. They are only speaking the words after all. But through this catalysator (actor) I understood something about myself, and with that understanding I could make a choice: Did I want to continue living like this? Or did I want to make a change?

But I had to realize this truth or side of me, before I even could make this choice.

"What we can never verify is whether/if some non-famous deranged fan was part of the "Soul Family" in some past life of a movie star s/he has never met."
We can verify very little in fact. We can`t verify the existence of past lives. We can`t verify that astrology works. And much else.

I think that is the problem when you are in the realm of feelings or belief systems. You can`t really verify them.

Actually, we can`t even verify that love exists or explain what love is. I mean a definition that is applicable for everyone.

How do you verify a feeling or a belief?
That has always been a nagging question for me. But I don`t have the answer to that.

"in real life is so much more powerfully revelatory about our selves than our reaction to an image."
I disagree.
Well, I agree that the real existing intimate relationships are powerfully revelatory and they really have an influence on your life.

But even a stranger can affect me strongly on an emotional level.
As a matter of fact all people are sometimes affected by strangers that way, or otherwise there would never be a relationship and we would make new friends. In the beginning the other one always is a stranger.

In the end I think it doesn`t really matter what or who affects us, this triggering of thought processes and feelings is what is important.

The big difference is that with real life contacts you can influence and trigger emotional responses in each other and therefore a dialogue can begin, and you can even grow and change together, and you will be part of each other`s life, that of course will be different than if you hadn`t met.

posted October 06, 2009 12:24 PM         

It is very complicated to recognize red flags for delusional disorder and other disordered behaviors if you have a belief system that includes mystical experiences, precognitive dreams, etc...and I do believe in those things. But I think some of the material on Lindaland feeds and encourages de Clérambault's, etc., the way pro-anorexic sites encourage disordered behavior.

THe delusion is not even so about the belief of mutuality...red flags for de Clérambault's include:

-an obsession with the person, following his whereabouts, collecting personal information about him (I think painstakingly looking at where one's asteroids conjunct his is part of that battery of behaviors)

-planning life around the person--seeing him, etc. (different than if you are in a relationship, which is then not a red flag...that's why it's so complicated)

-overinterpreting events or "signs" involving the person

-sometimes, visual or auditory hallucinations fixated on the person

-intense denial that the behavior is disordered

In one case I know of, the woman got three diagnoses...her fixation was on a neighbor, which was very complicated because who knows, maybe he WAS attracted to her, but that isn't exactly the point...the disordered, delusional, red flag part is that whatever is or is not going on in the real-life, in-person relationship, the delusional person lives out most of the connection in her mind...obsessing, tracking the object's whereabouts, seeing "signs" of their connection.

This type of (non)interaction is different from having a profound reaction to a stranger's performance/artwork or even an interest in his biography...it's the combination of the fixation and search for signs with the WAY of inserting the self into that other person's life (looking for clues of your connection, such as in synastry.)

I see behavior on this site often that to my heart, gut, and intellect, involves lots of red flags.

posted October 06, 2009 12:44 PM         

-women in 30s and 40s, married or single
-no signs of psychosis
-they hold non-bizarre delusions for at least a month (non-bizarre=it COULD happen in real life)
-they often suffer from depression
-they often suffer from sexual dysfunction/unfulfilling sex life

The disorder can ladder into stalking behavior, but usually does not. It usually doesn't impair the person's ability to function normally at all--but it does retard his/her ability to have real, intimate relationships.

Changing that behavior pattern (of fixating on a stranger because one LACKS powerful intimate connections, great sex, and artistic release in one's own real life) can help disorder sufferers make real life changes so that they no longer need the fixation.

posted October 06, 2009 12:47 PM         

And you can look at the same thing from several perspectives.

For example:
If people are in relationship, then it`s not a red flag, if they have interest in each other, talk about each other all the time and so on.

The symptoms are pretty similiar, just the "outer frame" is different, (relationship vs. non relationship).

*shrugs* It`s all a matter of perspective.

Personally I draw the line, where people invade someone else`s privacy, unasked and unwanted, and where they start to act as if they were in a relationship, even though they are not.

I really do not have a problem with people being fans, or even spend a lot of time reading someone`s biography, or enjoying going to a concert now and then. And I also think it is perfectly normal that you want to be seen and look for a possible connection. It is not different from how we are doing astrology in real relationships.

I do have a problem though, if those people fall into stalking mode.
I think it is important, that with all spiritual connection,t hat might or might not be there (to your husband, your brother, your librarian, anyone else) and that with all feelings you might have, you have to be aware that this other one leads a separate life, that has nothing to do with you, and you have to accept that.

posted October 06, 2009 01:11 PM         

quote:

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I really do not have a problem with people being fans, or even spend a lot of time reading someone`s biography, or enjoying going to a concert now and then.

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This is NOT the same, IMO.

To me this is quite different from tracing a celebrity's whereabouts and seeing their next gig as a SIGN related to your connection...focusing your life around that fantasized connection (this implies even if you understand that it is not a real relationship)...going over your asteroid connections with a fine-toothed comb and deciding that you have a special connection with that person on the soul level or in a past life.

I see those all as red flags for de Clérambault's or other delusional syndromes, and the reason they are scary is that they LADDER into stalking behavior.

But also, before the laddering, sufferers of the delusion can be helped by having someone intervene and helping them rechannel the energies into their own real life.

Like what happened to my friend...I mean, of course he was very nice when he met this fan of his...she was just a fat, unhappy middle-aged woman with a distant husband, and he (my friend) was very glad she got so much pleasure and inspiration from his work. He DID like her and appreciate her fandom, so it became very hard to set boundaries as she got increasingly dangerous. I don't want to go into too much detail about what exactly happened, but the problem was not that he was a celeb and she was not..or that they started as strangers...

The problem was that she was fixating on an image. She was putting all of this energy that should have gone into real sex and real intimacy and her own art into the IDEA of him, so even after she knew him in person, it was still a delusional fixation.

posted October 06, 2009 01:15 PM         

quote:

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I see behavior on this site often that to my heart, gut, and intellect, involves lots of red flags.

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posted October 08, 2009 05:37 AM         

quote:

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Well, delusional or spiritual?

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