posted March 08, 2010 02:40 PM         

I have memory disturbances for word and thought recall that complicate the spontaneous speech flow that I developed "loose," rambling, and disjointed speaking style and naturally viewed as scatterbrained. I often talk rapidly and even interrupt others before forgetting my thoughts. My "neurodivergent speech style" must be clinically differentiated, by a clinician, from more serious neurological and psychological disturbances affecting the speech process, such as those that underlie the loose and rambling speech of psychotics. I have coordination issues between the speed of my thought processes and the speed with which my motor speech mechanisms are capable of working, often resulting in word hesitation, and word or thought forgetting----resulting in speech and social phobias.

I manifest a "loose" and telescopic quality to my associative speech and thinking styles, and as a result I tend to
be rapid,wordy, and rambling in my spontaneous descriptions. It's independent of anxiety factors and tend to resemble a schizophrenic's "loose associations" and
tangential thinking. I forget momentarily the direction of my thought sequences and/or the thoughts and words themselves.
The temporal spacing between words and sentences tends to be shorter than normal and even dysmetric.

It can be viewed what is called "cluttering" which characterized by a speech delivery rate which is either abnormally fast, irregular, or both. I talked to Kenneth St. Louis on the phone to cooperate with his research on connection between cluttering and learning disorders, and he even confirmed that I clutter. He is a clutterer himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluttering http://www.asha.org/Publications/leader/2003/031118/f031118a.htm

also in page 59 of DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders:
There may also be a disturbance in fluency and language formulation involving an
abnormally rapid rate and erratic rhythm of speech and disturbances in language structure (cluttering).

I also believe that my thinking mainly in pictures instead of words also effect my speech.

In Psychiatry, rapid,pressured speech and racing thoughts are a symptom of mania and loose,tangential speech, jumping from topic to topic is a symptom of thought disorder in connected to schizophrenia.

This explains in great detail about schizophrenic speech http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521810752&ss=exc

This explains rapid speech in mania http://bipolar.about.com/cs/faqs/f/faq_presspeech.htm http://bipolar.about.com/cs/faqs/f/faq_presspeech.htm

from Bipolar site
Definition:
Flight of ideas is one of the symptoms of bipolar mania as well as schizophrenia and ADHD. Some web definitions include:

* a nearly continuous flow of rapid speech that jumps from topic to topic, usually based on discernible associations, distractions, or plays on words, but in severe cases so rapid as to be disorganized and incoherent. It is most commonly seen in manic episodes but may also occur in other mental disorders such as in manic phases of schizophrenia. http://bipolar.about.com/od/maniahypomani1/g/gl_flightofidea.htm

cluttering also mentioned as one of the early warning signs of Dyslexia. http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html#preschool

Cluttering is also mentioned as one of the symptoms of Dyspraxia
"attentional problems and poor concentration (often lose track of conversations and run off at a tangent, often display symptoms of Attention Deficit Disorder)" http://www.angelfire.com/journal/ldps/Dyspraxia.htm

Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,and ADHD tend co-exist in the same person. Many neurodivergents have more than one neurodivergent condition like I have Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD like Mary Colley who is the head of DANDA Developmental Adult Neuro-Diversity Association which is located in the United Kingdom. Their symptoms/traits overlap. What's more complicated is that they overlap with psychiatric disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia. Therefore, they can be misdiagnosed. It's well documented that half of schizophrenics have history of delays in speech and motor skills.

Staying away from psychiatrists would be a good idea for people that have speech irregularities which aren't necessarily a sign of a disorder of any kind.

That's all relative imho

but yeah....those speech irregularities are go beyond Gemini.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 02:45 PM         

I believe that it's reflected by a combination of factors

not just Gemini/3rd house.

There are many people with strong Gemini and strong 3rd house that don't have the same type of speech.information processing differences as I do.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 02:47 PM         

I'm very sorry that you had to go through all that. Unfortunately, people don't understand that some of us just function, think and act differently than that what is called "normal". I don't know why is that, but maybe admitting that there are "other variations of human condition" ( like you said) would require to go beyond their rigid way of thinking and I doubt that they are capable of it.

When I jump from topic to topic I just follow my thoughts and they are quite fast ( when I write, I barely manage to write down everything I'm thinking of). I don't mind it, I find it rather invigorating and for me it makes perfect sense. But it is very often difficult for others to follow me

I also have problems memorizing things when I concentrate on them and often I can't put my thoughts or feelings into words because obviously I can't think the way other people do. When I read something, I have to translate it into my own "language". I think very abstract and complicated and although I admire those who can express themselves simply and clearly, I'm very happy with my own mind

posted March 08, 2010 02:51 PM         

quote:

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How does your sister relate to

---

She lives in Chapel Hill right now and I usually make the two hour drive to go see her (since there's lots to do there), but she's currently out of state for Spring Break so there's no point in going.

posted March 08, 2010 03:21 PM         

I'm very sorry that you had to go through all that. Unfortunately, people don't understand that some of us just function, think and act differently than that what is called "normal". I don't know why is that, but maybe admitting that there are "other variations of human condition" ( like you said) would require to go beyond their rigid way of thinking and I doubt that they are capable of it."

There is nothing to be sorry about. It's alright. These things happened to me for a reason - to be a neurodiversity advocate and start a nonprofit neurodiversity organization. Look at people in history who were advocates,activists. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a black man living in the South and grew up with the segregation laws,and he became the foremost leader of the civil rights movement in USA. Susan B. Anthony knew personally what it was like to be treated as 2nd class citizen for being a woman, and she was a womans right leader. In 2004,I read a story about a woman who was locked up in a mental institution for 2 years because she was misdiagnosed as having schizophrenia. She had depression. She ends up educating people about diagnosing people. MindFreedom International, a mental health human rights organization was founded by psychiatric survivors.

"When I jump from topic to topic I just follow my thoughts and they are quite fast ( when I write, I barely manage to write down everything I'm thinking of). I don't mind it, I find it rather invigorating and for me it makes perfect sense. But it is very often difficult for others to follow me."

When you say that your thoughts are fast, is it verbal,word thinking or visual,picture thinking? I can't think in verbal,word rapidly. I can think in visual,pictures rapidly. I read that visual,picture thinking is actually much faster than verbal,word thinking. Visual,picture thinkers often get mistook for being slow thinkers too.

The reason why I speak and do other things rapidly is that I have poor sense of linear time. My perception of what is fast and slow greatly differ from most people's perception of those things. My rapid speech has nothing to do with racing thoughts (what psychiatrists say are symptoms of mania) but the combination of poor sense of time and just rapid motor output in result of that poor sense of time. My rapid motor output doesn't correlate at all with my thinking.

"I also have problems memorizing things when I concentrate on them and often I can't put my thoughts or feelings into words because obviously I can't think the way other people do. When I read something, I have to translate it into my own "language". I think very abstract and complicated and although I admire those who can express themselves simply and clearly, I'm very happy with my own mind. "

Yeah...I can relate.My rote memorization ability sucks and my overall short term/working memory sucks. Mainstream classroom learning relies on those things.

I have to translate incoming words into pictures. Then my outgoing pictures in response to the incoming information is processed,and it gets translated into words. If words are very abstract,I can have difficulty.

the psychologist who did my neuropsychological testing wrote the following in my report
"persons with strong visual spatial skills that lack comparable verbal facility can get frustrated when expressing their ideas in a highly verbal society". That is definitely true with me.

I am very glad that you're happy with your own mind. It's the type that is typical of creative,problem solvers. That's good for Astrology. What you think is all that matters.

Neurodiversity is a wonderful thing.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 04:26 PM         

according to Ronald D. Davis from the book,THE GIFT OF DYSLEXIA (It's a book about neurodivergent thinking and not Dyslexia). He has both Dyslexia and Autism.

Picture Thinking

In a second, a verbal thinking could have between two and five thoughts (individual words conceptualized) while a picture thinker would have thirty-two (individual pictures conceptualized).

A picture thinker could think a single picture of a concept that might require hundreds or thousands of words to describe.
Einstein's theory of relativity came to him in a daydream in which he traveled beside a beam of light. His vision lasted only seconds, yet spawned scores of textbooks that attempt to explain it. To Einstein, the concept was simple; to the average person, it is nearly incomprehensible.

Picture thinking is estimated to be, overall, 400 to 2,000 times faster than verbal thinking. It varies with the complexity of the individual pictures. Picture thinking is more thorough,deeper,and more comprehensive.

Verbal thought is learning in time, performed by making sentences one word at a time, whereas picture thinking is evolutionary. The picture grows as the mental process adds more subconcepts to the overall concept. Pictured thoughts are as thorough or deep as these mental pictures are accurate in portraying the meanings of the words that the person would use to describe the same thoughts.

Pictured thoughts could be substance while verbal thoughts are signficant sound.

Intuition

The only drawback to picture thinking is that the person doing it is not aware of the individual pictures as they occur. It happens to fast. The incidence of awareness is the amount of time it takes for something to register consciously in the awareness of the individual. In humans, it is fairly consistent at 1/25 of a second. In other words, a stimulus must be present for 1/25 of a second in order to register in the person's consciousness.

If a simulus is present longer than 1/25 second, we are aware of it. This called cognizance. If a stimulus is present for less than 1/25 of a second, but longer than 1/36 of a second, it falls into the category called subliminal. Our brain gets it, but we aren't aware of what it got. If it is part of a continuum, it fuses with the pictures that precede and follow. If a stimulus isn't present for at least 1/36 of a second, we don't even get it subliminally. It went by too fast for our brain to catch it at all.

Picture thinking seems to be consistently happening about thirty-two pictures per second, or a frequency of 1/32 of a second, the same speech as the flicker-fusion rate of the eye. In other words, the eye's shutter speed.

This is somewhat faster than the incidence of awareness at 1/25 of a second, but slower than the subliminal limit of 1/36 of a second. So picture thinking falls within the subliminal band.

The person's brain gets the thought, but the person isn't consciously aware of it. As a result, we can begin to understand intuition, because picture thinking is the same as intuitive thinking. The person becomes aware of the product of the thought process as soon as it is happeniing. The person knows the answer without knowing why it is the answer.

Some people find a way to bring the subliminal thought process into their awareness. If they think of something interesting, they can disorient into the thought and watch the individual pictures as they occur. When they do this, it is called a daydream. Parents are very critical of daydreaming, but they shouldn't be. In fact, they should encourage it at every opportunity. Daydreaming is the process of genius, as Einstein and others have proven time and again.

I agree with Ron Davis.

However, I am aware of my picture thinking. I see things in my mind's eye nonstop. It's like I am daydreaming all the time without trying to. It's even stuff like visualizing what I am doing before I am doing and while I am doing it (like turning my mind's eye in my direction). If a person says a certain word, I automatically get a picture of what the person is saying. If a person talks about a dog, I visualize a dog. If a person talks about driving, I will picture that person driving. Often times, I get mistook for not paying attention or distracted because I am deeply ,immersed in my visual thought processes triggered by what the person is saying.

I will post about attention and concentration stuff which is relevant to the thread.

It goes way beyond Gemini,Mercury,3rd house.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 04:41 PM         

quote:

---

There are many people with strong Gemini and strong 3rd house that don't have the same type of speech.information processing differences as I do.

---

posted March 08, 2010 04:53 PM         

Attention vs. Concentration

It is natural and easy for some people pay attention, but difficult for them to concentrate. There is a tremendous difference between the two. When people are paying attention, their awareness is spread out; it can encompass the entire immediate environment. When people are concentrating, all or most of their attention is fixed on only one thing in the immediate environment.

Heavy concentration produces a superficial rote type of learning, characterized by memorization without full understanding. Children who learn in this way can go through the motions, but don't fully get the underlying concepts of the subjects being taught.

While watching TV or playing with toys, the more interested or curious a child is in the experience, the more attention the child will put on it. But there is still some attention left over for the rest of the environment. In other words, the child is paying more attention to one thing, but is still not abandoning or excluding the rest of the environment. This is true of ordinary children, but some children will keep attention more widely spread around the environment than the ordinary child.

Curiosity

Some children are generally so environmentally aware, they tend to be curious. Curiosity more than anything else, can cause them to shift their attention. If they find the object of curiosity interesting, they will pay more attention to it than to other things in the environment. They automatically put most of their attention on whatever they find most interesting.

If a a certain child sitting in a classroom hears a noise outside, or something moves past the window, or a student in the next row drops something, instantly the child's attention shifts to the distraction. The other students and possibly the teacher weren't even aware anything happened. But the student naturally reacted because he or she noticed it and became curious about what it might be.

Boredom also plays a role, because boredom often happens to someone whose mind is working between four and two thousand times faster than the minds of the people around them. A certain child who is bored will do one of two things. Either the child will disorient into creative imagination (daydreaming), or will shift his attention to something that is interesting (distractibility or inattention).

The impulsive aspect of ADD is most prevalent when the student is confused or uncertain about what to do. Otherwise, it is usually just an attempt to overcome agonizing boredom.

There is a growing recognition that the symptoms of ADD,like those of dyslexia, can be an advantage in many real-life situations. During the past few years, the potential benefits have been explored in a number of books on the subject.

A highly regimented classroom is not a real-life situation by any stretch of the imagination.

If a teacher does not appeal to the curiosity of a student and has failed to make the subject being taught the most interesting thing in the environment, the teacher has created the perfect environment for ADD. This teacher will eventually tell the parents of the child that his child can't stay on task, is easily distractible, and should be tested.

I agree with him.

If teaching was multisensory (visual,auditory,tactile,kinesthetic) and not auditory sequential, there would be much less boredom in classrooms. Make learning fun and enjoyable.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 04:57 PM         

But it's pretty much connected. I showed in much detail the mental processes behind that. I also showed in the aforementioned two posts before this post. I have a tendency to get bored and restless,and I don't have any strong Gemini. Heck..these traits run rampant in my family. They are not a bunch of people with a strong Gemini influence. They are strong in outerplanet and transneptunian energy though.

the boredom and restlessness is often connected to the type of thinking that doesn't fit the mainstream and fits more with outside the box,creative,problem solving types. That goes beyond the superficial sign of Gemini. I am talking about the zodiac sign itself and not a person.

Of course,not all nor most Geminis are superficial. Many are deep reflected by strong water placement and outerplanet aspects. My Gemini Sun mom is the perfect example with Ascendant,Mercury,Venus,Jupiter,and Uranus in Cancer with Moon and Saturn in Scorpio with her Sun trine Neptune and sextile Pluto. She is strong in water,outerplanet and transneptunian energy overall.

From the looks of it, seems that all or most people in this forum are strong in outerplanet and/or transneptunian energy including the people with strong Gemini charts.

Also the restlessness and being bored easily can also be connected to not only Gemini, but also the other mutable signs, Sagittarius and Pisces. Heck..they could even be connected to Uranus and its modern ruled sign,Aquarius. MyVirgoMask already made points about Uranus aspects could be involved. They could be connected to the centaurs like Chiron,Nessus,Asbolus,Chariklo,and many others. It could be connected to the transneptunians like Pluto,Eris,Makemake,Sedna,and many others. Those energies are nonconformists in their orbits with many with highly elliptical orbits and many that don't orbit on the ecliptic like the other planets.

Skeptics of Astrology think that everything in Astrology is so general and that it can apply to anybody. A metaphysician gave me a hard time about that last Friday in his metaphysical chatroom. Not all metaphysicians believe that Astrology is valid. I often feel that the things that I read in this forum seems to confirm his points. This goes especially when there is discussion about zodiac sign placements.

another thing too is that the traits can apply to Rahu (North Lunar Node) and Ketu (South Lunar Node) in Vedic Astrology.

the traits can apply to certain harmonic aspects including the 5th,7th,and 11th harmonic aspects. Robert Hand describes the 7th harmonic as having a Uranus-Neptune influence. The 5th harmonic is associated with creativity. The 11th Harmonic is Aquarian/Uranian in influence.
I am very prominent in 11th harmonic myself. I have Sun septile Ascendant and Sun biquintile Midheaven. I have 5th and 7th harmonic aspects between 2 personal planet/points.

the traits are common in hunters and people with the DRD4 7R gene allele which is spontaneous genetic mutation dated between 10,000 and 40,000 years ago and linked to novelty seeking.

there are so many things connected to being restless and being bored easily

I think that it's hard to isolate Gemini/Mercury/3rd house from other things.

the whole restlessness,bored easily traits can be reflected by the overall chart itself.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 05:54 PM         

the restlessness and boredom fits

with the numbers, 3 and 5. I'd say 1 and 11 too.

My Lifepath is 3.
My Self Expression is 14/5 - 14 is one of the karmic debt numbers.
My Birthday Number is 29 which reduces to 11.

so even my numerology chart reflects that I am the restless,bored easily type

posted March 08, 2010 06:24 PM         

quote:

---

Also the restlessness and being bored easily can also be connected to not only Gemini, but also the other mutable signs, Sagittarius and Pisces. Heck..they could even be connected to Uranus and its modern ruled sign,Aquarius. MyVirgoMask already made points about Uranus aspects could be involved.

---

posted March 08, 2010 06:45 PM         

hahahahahaha!

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted March 08, 2010 07:08 PM         

first i am a cancer sun but on the cusp or borderline. i was born early so i like to think of myself as gemini though technically it's not true my only two major placements of gemini are in moon and venus only.

i have pluto in the 3rd house which is in libra. my uranus in in scorpio which is in the 4th house.

gemini is in the eleventh house for me.

i'm not bored with life but i get bored easily. talk about watching a movie...i'll be watching a movie and sometimes my mind will wander and i'll start to think about something that's painful in my past or even a chore i have to do. i can sit for several hours at a time and just think about all of the things i think about in my life and i'm thoroughly entertained.

i do have the ability to concentrate and sit still for many hours at a time though. i have will and discipline. but i can't say i am so disciplined when it comes to trivial things like if i'm writing an email or reading a book on my own. if it's got to do with work or school...i'm 100% focused and serious. i'm one of those overachieving academic types who never spoke in class. i think i hide my multi-tasking/i get bored easily attitude/traits from people. i don't think anyone would guess it.

in terms of being bored with friends...i have a fear of physical intimacy as opposed to emotional. i'm not a touchy feely person. not into hugging people or kissing them. hence why i like those aloof, detached, strong and silent types...however, if i can't get close to someone emotionally, i get bored and i drop them. i need to talk about everything and anything and that includes controversial, dark things and if a friend isn't willing to dig deep and give me an honest opinion or have honest conversations with me...i get bored.

my friends are mainly those i've known all my life so about 20 years or more. i don't keep many friends whom i have not grown up with. but the newer friends i've made....i find i'm not tolerant of them or am impatient with them. if they can't give me conversation...i'm bored and i stop trying to get close to them.

posted March 08, 2010 07:38 PM         

I'm always juggling several books at a time. My brain has, unfortunately, taken on more of a Swiss Cheese quality, over the past few years, so I don't always trust myself to retain anything that I'm learning.

If I'm going to watch a movie, or sit still for any length of time, then I need to be relaxed... I think part of my problem, over the past few years, has been a lack of exercise (I've had problems with my energy, a cough that won't go away, getting sick whenever I exert a little too much energy...). Exercise grounds me - takes away a lot of the restlessness - allowing me to concentrate more, on whatever I need to. At the moment, I have a habit of leaving movies and television shows, paused on the DVR, as I go to do something else that came to mind, as I was sitting there watching it. I've also been teased about having a radio on, at the same time as the TV, or reading with a movie playing... sometimes I like the 'company' provided by an external source, sometimes I like it less busy.

I'm all over the place right now, so I apologize for the haphazard post... I keep rambling lately.