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Author Topic:   Heliocentric,Sidereal in Geocentric Tropical Chart
Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 03, 2010 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I was wondering if anybody checked out Heliocentric and Sidereal objects,points in a a Geocentric Chart.

Astrologer, Robert Blaschke uses them.

He noted the following:

Heliocentric - Christ Consciousness or Higher Self
Sidereal - Completion of Karma


I looked at minor planet conjunctions within 1 degree. It's good to stick to just the conjunctions within 1 degree to check for major life themes. They might give you insight into your life purpose.


Heliocentric Angel in 10'45 Gemini - Higher Self involving angels
conjunct Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini - Present Incarnation involving aim of life


Sidereal Angelina in 4'21 Scorpio - Completion of Karma involving Angels
conjunct Sun in 5'20 Scorpio - Present Incarnation involving ego


Heliocentric Whiteknight in 18'30 Scorpio - Higher Self involving chivalrous knight mentality
conjunct Chart ruler Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio - Present Incarnation involving communications,thinking

(Whiteknight makes me think of Knights of the Round Table like Lancelot and Galahad, and Paladins of Charlemagne like Roland and Oliver)

Conjunction of:
Sidereal Spirit in 12'48 Virgo - Completion of Karma involving spirituality
Heliocentric Juno in 12'57 Virgo - Higher Self involving committed relationship
Heliocentric Church in 13'04 Virgo - Christ Consciousness involving church

conjunct Ascendant in 13'27 Virgo - Present Incarnation involving the approach to life

(makes me wonder if I will meet my future wife in a church)


Heliocentric Christa in 8'21 Sagittarius - Higher Self involving Christianity
conjunct Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius - Present Incarnation involving expansion


Heliocentric Christen in 14'12 Leo - Higher Self involving Christianity
conjunct Ceres in 13'57 Leo - Present Incarnation involving nurturing,mother
conjunct Antivertex in 14'58 Leo - Present Incarnation involving the approach of life,relating to others (Antivertex is an auxilliary ascendant)

Sidereal Karma in 8'57 Virgo - Completion of Karma involving Karma
conjunct East Point in 8'00 Virgo - Present Incarnation involving the approach of life and relating to others (East Point is an auxilliary Ascendant)

Both the East Point and Antivertex can be interpreted as auxiliary Ascendants. That is, they function as additional keys to one’s basic identity, action, energy, drive and self-expression.

They do not seem to be AS important as the actual Ascendant, but do offer useful clues to major themes in the nature of the individual. Either angle requires more attention when a planet falls closely conjunct it. This is almost as significant as having that planet conjunct the Ascendant. The planet(s) involved denote major, keynote principles of that individual’s sense of self, identity, assertion and being in the world. http://www.ccrsdodona.org/m_dilemma/1983/vir/epav.html

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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DD
Knowflake

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From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 04, 2010 07:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
Yes, I did. I found it interesting that in my case helio Angel is conjunct my geo Amor. Both are on 2 Sagittarius. I don´t remember the exact minutes though.

I thought that it might mean, that whenever I tap into my abilitiy of unconditional love (Amor), I am connecting with my Higher self (helio Angel).
I think our geo Skepticus might be close to this, too.


BTW my mum`s name is Christa, and my own name is derived from this (something my parents weren´t aware of, when they picked my name).

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 04, 2010 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
DD,
Very interesting

Yeah...I wondered about that angel reader telling me that I am an Earth Angel back November of last year


I have been getting a lot more into angels now.

I still use my angel cards every day and night. I am still on lacto ovo vegetarian diet since that Vegetarian/Vegan card fell out of the deck when asking about being a vegetarian December 30th of last year.

I recently got posters of
Archangels Michael http://www.zazzle.com/archangel_michael_poster-228879152006683479

and Archangel Metatron. http://www.zazzle.com/archangel_metatron_print-228045849648622658


I put Michael poster facing my bed,and I put Metatron over my book cases.

I ordered an angel meditation CD too http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Higher-S elf-Meditations-Angelic/dp/B00018RRPM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270400949&sr=8-2-catcorr

I ordered a Metatron gemdrop pendant too. http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Seeds-Metatron-Gemdrop- Pendant/dp/B002RGOI76/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=jewelry&qid=1270400915&sr=8-1

Metatron cube is part of my Neurodiversity logo for my nonprofit organization and meetup group.
Developmental Neurodiversity Association has the acronym,DNA to suggest genetic neurodivergence. Metatron Cube is used as a diagram for the 6 neurodivergent conditions (Dyspraxia,Dyscalculia,Dyslexia,AD/HD,Autistic Spectrum,Tourette's Syndrome,and AD/HD) that Developmental Adult Neuro-Diversity Association (DANDA) in UK advocates for. The 6 points,outside circles in the diagram represent the 6 neurodivergent conditions. http://www.danda.org.uk/pages/neuro-diversity.php

The logo hints at being an organization to help Indigo,Crystal types that Archangel Metatron is supposed to be helping.


Last week,I went to a store to get a birthday present for my shaman friend. I decided to get a rose quartz pendant. I asked for one with a heart so I can wear around my neck,and I told that there wasn't one. She told me that there is one of an angel, and so I decided to get that. I wear it on a silver chain When I was walking on my way towards the shop before I got my friend's gift, I saw a lady pushing a cart that said Angel. Then there was a cart that said Angel right in front of a store's door. Angel is certain brand name for a cart.

I am making Archangel Prayer Cards. I am just writing names of the Archangels and the crystals and colors they are associated with. On the back, write prayers pertaining to their field. Then I can use them like flashcards so I can learn about them better. When I feel a need for insight wherever I am at,I can randomly take a card and make a prayer to the archangel.


I am really into angels a lot now,and I ask them for guidance and protection.


I have Angel,Angelica,Angelina Nodes aspects too


ANGEL NODES

Heliocentric Angel Nodes in 2'28 Virgo/Pisces
oppose/conjunct Moon in 3'11 Pisces
trine Sedna in 2'06 Taurus R
sextile Quaoar in 2'22 Scorpio
square Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius
square Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R

Geocentric North Angel Node in 15'06 Virgo
trine Part of Fortune in 15'36 Taurus

Geocentric South Angel Node in 12'13 Aquarius
trine Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini
sextile Eris in 12'15 Aries R


ANGELICA NODES
Heliocentric Angelica Nodes in 11'22 Taurus/Scorpio
square Lunar Nodes in 10'30 Aquarius/Leo

Geocentric North Angelica Node in 15'30 Taurus
conjunct Part of Fortune in 15'36 Taurus
square Vertex in 14'58 Aquarius

Geocentric South Angelica Node in 10'03 Scorpio
square Lunar Nodes in 10'30 Aquarius/Leo


ANGELINA NODES

Heliocentric Angelina Nodes in 9'51 Aquarius/Leo
conjunct Lunar Nodes in 10'30 Aquarius/Leo

Geocentric North Angelina Node in 21'14 Capricorn
sextile Venus in 21'47 Scorpio

Geocentric South Angelina Node in 2'02 Virgo
trine Sedna in 2'06 Taurus
square Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius
square Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R
sextile Quaoar in 2'22 Scorpio

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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DD
Knowflake

Posts: 3710
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 04, 2010 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
That is very interesting about your interest in angels. I have developed some interest myself, even though am maybe not as active as you in this regard.
I think it is awesome that you are doing these cards. They sound really great. Great idea.

Whenever I do an angel reading for me, I am drawing the cards of archangel Michael and archangel Raphael. It is really weird, they ALWAYS pop up.

anyway I checked some of the helio-sidereal connections (I am fascinated by Blashkes idea of different "dimensions of experience" regarding helio and sidereal, even though I do not have a clear grasp towards the difference between sidereal and Draconic).
I expanded your orb to 2 degree though and also checked oppositions; I also checked some Arthurian asteroids, just because I dreamed last night that I was visiting the ruins of Tintagel, king Arthur`s castle, with my brother and when my brother asked, why I knew my ways around there so well, I answered him that I should know, as I had been living there when I was Guinevere. LOL
Well, some dreams are just dreams I guess, but I just feel so drawn to England; to Cornwall and to Glastonbury, it`s hard to explain.

Anyway these were the aspects I found:

sidereal Sun on 2°25 Sagittarius
sidereal Mercury on 1°32 Sagittarius
helio Angel on 2°07 Sagittarius
tropical Amor on 2°08 Sagittarius


sidereal Moon on 23°35 Capricorn
tropical Arthur on 21°36 Capricorn
tropical Sun-Moon-mp on 21°32 Capricorn
tropical Antivertex on 21°28 Capricorn


sidereal Venus on 12°36 Sag
tropical Whiteknight on 13°47 Gemini

sidereal Jupiter on 17°42 Aquarius
tropical Moon on 17°06 AQuarius

sidereal Neptune on 16°26 Scorio
sidreal NN on 16°39 Scorpio
tropical Lancelot on 16°47 Scorpio

sidereal Pluto on 15°34 virgo
trpical Juno on 16°58 Pisces

sidereal Juno on 23°27 Aqarius
helio Camelot on 23°54 Leo
tropical Psyche on 24°02 Aquarius

sidereal Guinevere on 16°46 Sagittarius
helio Whiteknight on 17°41 Gemini
tropical Karma on 16°01 Gemini

sidereal Lancelot on 23°16 Libra
tropical Corneville on 22°34 Libra

sidereal Knight on 8°24 Sagittarius
helio Neptune on 9°24 Sagittarius
tropical NN on 10°09 Sagittarius
tropical Neptune on 9°56 SAgittarius
tropical Angel on 7°31 Sagittarius
tropical ASC on 7°01 Sagittarius

sidereal IC on 11°27 Pisces
tropical Jupiter on 11°12 Pisces

helio Venus on 19°59 Capricorn
tropical Eros on 20°59 Cancer


helio Knight on 4°34 Cap
tropical Venus on 6°07 Cap


BTW tropical Guinevere on 10°17 Capricorn
conjuncts tropical Spirit on 10°40 Capricorn

and

tropical Tristan on 3°43 Capricorn
squares
tropical Isolda on 3°11 Aries

So

tropical Tristan on 3°43 Cap conjuncts
helio Knight on 4°34 Cap

helio Tristan on 6°51 Cap
tropical Venus on 6°07 Cap


sidereal Isolda on 9°41 Pisces
conjunct tropical Ceres on 9°34 Pisces

sidereal Tristan on 10°12 Sag
tropical NN on 10°09 Sag


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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 04, 2010 06:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Very cool stuff.

Yeah..I was wondering about using oppositions with the Sidereal and Heliocentric asteroids. The Draconic works with both conjunction and opposition.


so I checked out oppositions and any other conjunctions that might shed insight into myself

that also includes Arthurian Legend,otherworldly,mythology stuff


Chart ruler Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
Camelot in 18'23 Scorpio
Heliocentric Whiteknight in 18'30 Scorpio
Heliocentric Excalibur in 18'48 Scorpio
Sidereal Aesculapia in 18'15 Scorpio
Sidereal Apollo in 18'49 Scorpio
Sidereal Atlantis in 17'57 Scorpio
Heliocentric Urania in 18'28 Taurus R
Sidereal Galahad in 18'56 Taurus R

Ascendant in 13'27 Virgo
Heliocentric Sokrates in 13'16 Virgo
Heliocentric Juno in 12'57 Virgo
Heliocentric Church in 13'04 Virgo
Sidereal Spirit in 12'48 Virgo

Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini
Heliocentric Angel in 10'45 Gemini
Heliocentric Gawain in 10'30 Gemini
Sidereal Aten in 11'36 Sagittarius (With Aten being the monotheistic Egyptian God, do I have some ancient Egyptian karma?)

Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio
Sidereal Minerva in 5'21 Scorpio
Sidereal Young in 4'33 Scorpio (This has to do with why I look young?)
Sidereal Ate in 6'19 Taurus (Ate is named after Goddess of Infatuation, Obsession and Mad Impulses)
Sidereal Urania in 5'42 Taurus R
Sidereal Rudra in 4'22 Taurus

Moon in 3'11 Pisces
Lancelot in 3'13 Pisces
Sidereal Leto in 3'12 Virgo - mother of Apollo and Artemis
Sidereal Mentor in 3'18 Virgo
Sidereal Sokrates in 2'36 Virgo

Mars in 25'54 Aquarius
Sidereal Kaali in 25'33 Leo

Pluto in 0'51 Libra
Heliocentric Spirit in 1'19 Libra
Sidereal Glaukos in 1'43 Libra
Sidereal Isolda in 0'02 Libra
Sidereal Knight in 0'39 Aries R

Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R
Pallas in 2'38 Gemini R
Sidereal Gawain in 2'43 Gemini
Heliocentric Galahad in 2'52 Gemini

Vertex in 14'58 Aquarius
Tristan in 14'21 Aquarius
Heliocentric Chaldaea in 14'56 Aquarius
Sidereal Diana in 14'36 Aquarius R
Heliocentric Hathor in 15'08 Leo

Lunar Nodes in 10'30 Aquarius/Leo
Parvati in 10'00 Leo


Eris in 12'15 Aries
Sidereal Anubis in 12'37 Aries R
Heliocentric Athor in 11'53 Leo


In Doreen Virtue's book, REALMS OF THE EARTH ANGELS, Knights Paladin which refers to a magical or holy knight who crusades in the name of upholding goodness and order.


------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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DD
Knowflake

Posts: 3710
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 05, 2010 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
"Yeah..I was wondering about using oppositions with the Sidereal and Heliocentric asteroids. The Draconic works with both conjunction and opposition."
Yes, so I thought the others would work with the opposition, too.

BTW how do you see the difference in meaning between sidereal and DRaco? Both seem to have karmic implications, but what is the difference?

"Chart ruler Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
Camelot in 18'23 Scorpio
Heliocentric Whiteknight in 18'30 Scorpio
Heliocentric Excalibur in 18'48 Scorpio
Sidereal Aesculapia in 18'15 Scorpio
Sidereal Apollo in 18'49 Scorpio
Heliocentric Atlantis in 17'57 Scorpio
Heliocentric Urania in 18'28 Taurus R
Sidereal Galahad in 18'56 Taurus R "
Intersting. You must be a true knight.
Intersting, too, as your stellium is pretty close to my tropical Lancelot and sidereal Neptune and NN.


"Heliocentric Angel in 10'45 Gemini
Heliocentric Gawain in 10'30 Gemini
Sidereal Aten in 11'36 Sagittarius (With Aten being the monotheistic Egyptian God, do I have some ancient Egyptian karma?)"
LOL and once again you remind me here of an important degree in my own chart as my NN is on 10°09 Sagittarius and my Neptune on 9°56 Sag.

"Sidereal Ate in 6'19 Taurus (Ate is named after Goddess of Infatuation, Obsession and Mad Impulses)"
I never heard of that goddess. Is she a Greek one?

my sidereal Ate on 8°14 Capricorn is widely conjunct my tropical Venus on 6°07 Capricorn.

BTW how can I calculate my East point?

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Lonake
Knowflake

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posted April 05, 2010 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message
Glaucus, how can I find East Point on astro.com?

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
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posted April 05, 2010 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Robert Blaschke wrote:

Sidereal = Completion of Karma with it being a space origin
Draconic = Ongoing Soul Contract with it being a lunar origin

The difference is that the Sidereal-Tropical relationship is one of completion,whereas the relationship between the Draconic and Tropical Zodiacs symbolizes contracts of ongoining soul connection, such as family members reuniting again from lifetime to lifetime.


I calculated East Point with Solar Fire. Kepler and other professional astrology programs too.

astro.com nor even Jonathan Dunn's ephemeral page has calculations for East Point.


The East Point and the Antivertex
Maritha Pottenger
ASTRONOMICAL BACKGROUND

The angles of a horoscope are based on the intersection points of great circles. A great circle is the largest circle it is possible cut through a sphere, that is, the circle with the greatest radius. All great circles go through the center of the sphere. (Small circles do not pass through the center of the sphere.)

One familiar great circle on Earth is the Equator. That is the circle going around the middle of the Earth which is equally distant from both the north and south poles. Latitude on the Earth is measured north or south of the Equator and parallels of latitude (imaginary lines we visualize on the Earth and draw on our maps) are all small circles parallel to the Equator.

Astronomy (and astrology) work with a number of great circles on the “celestial sphere”. (The celestial sphere is an imaginary sphere centered on the Earth. Everything in the sky is assumed to be on the surface of this sphere for convenience in measurements and calculations.) The ecliptic is one such great circle. The ecliptic is the Earth’s path around the Sun. (From our vantage point, it is the apparent path of the Sun around the Earth. We know, of course, that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but it appears that the Sun revolves around the Earth.) Another common great circle is the horizon. Most people refer to the place where earth meets sky as the horizon. This is the visible or apparent horizon. It is a small circle because it does not go through the center of the Earth. If we take the four cardinal points of a compass (north, east, south and west) and connect them in a circle, parallel to the visible horizon but through the center of Earth, we have created the great circle that is the rational horizon. The poles of the horizon great circle would be the zenith (the point directly overhead for the observer) and the nadir (the point directly beneath the observer). Gravity pulls from the zenith toward the nadir. [Astrologers who call the Midheaven of the chart the zenith and the IC the nadir are using language that is incorrect and likely to confuse others.]

Another great circle is the Meridian. This circle goes through the north and south points of the horizon; the north and south poles of the Equator; and the zenith (directly above) and nadir (directly below the observer). Yet another great circle is called the Prime Vertical. It goes through the zenith and nadir and the east and west points of the horizon. An unnamed great circle goes through the north and south poles of Earth and the east and west points of the horizon.

The traditional four angles of the horoscope (Ascendant, Midheaven, IC and Descendant) are all intersections of great circles. All are treated as sensitive points by most astrologers. Using the East Point and Antivertex merely extends the basic principle of angles.
HOROSCOPE ANGLES

The Ascendant is formed by the intersection of the eastern section of the (rational) horizon with the ecliptic. The Descendant is the intersection of the horizon and ecliptic in the west. The visible intersection of the ecliptic with the Meridian (above the horizon) forms the Midheaven. The IC is the ecliptic-Meridian intersection below the horizon. The intersection of the ecliptic with the Prime Vertical in the east forms the Antivertex; in the west that intersection marks the Vertex. The East Point is the intersection of the ecliptic with the unnamed great circle passing through the east and west points of the horizon and the north and south poles of Earth, and the West Point is its western opposition. The East Point has also been called the Equatorial Ascendant because it is the Ascendant on the Equator at the sidereal time of birth.


To obtain the East Point is simple. Use your standard Table of Houses (Placidus, Koch, Campanus, whatever system you prefer). Once you have calculated the correct local sidereal time of birth (LST), find that LST in your Table of Houses. Rather than looking to the latitude of the birth you are interested in, go to zero latitude (the Equator). Interpolate as necessary to obtain the Ascendant at zero latitude for the exact local sidereal time. (As indicated, the East Point can also be called the Equatorial Ascendant.) If your Table of Houses does not include zero latitude, there is an alternative method. Add six hours to the correct local sidereal time (LST) of birth. This rotates the Midheaven exactly one quarter of the circle. (The East Point can also be defined as 90 degrees east, along the Equator, of the intersection of the Meridian with the ecliptic.) For that LST (six hours later), perform any necessary interpolation to calculate the Midheaven. That Midheaven (six hours later) is the correct East Point.

The Antivertex is slightly more complicated to calculate.

1. Subtract the latitude of birth from 90 degrees. Call your answer the co-latitude.

2. Add 12 hours to the LST of birth.

3. Take the LST from Step #2 into the Table of Houses as if you were going to calculate the house cusps from it.

4. Look for the Ascendant for that LST at the co-latitude. Interpolate as needed.

5. The result is the Vertex. The Antivertex is directly opposite (same degree and minute; opposite sign).

A variation is:

1. Same as above.

2. Note down the IC of the chart.

3. Find that IC in the Table of Houses AS IF it were a Midheaven.

4. Find the Ascendant for THAT Midheaven (which was originally the IC of the chart) at the co-latitude. Interpolate as needed.

5. Same as above.

For those who prefer working directly with trigonometric functions, the formulae for these angles are:

East Point = arctan (cosST/(-sinST * cos obl))

Vertex = arctan ((-cosST)/(sinST * cos obl-sin obl/tanlat))

Antivertex = Vertex +/-180 degrees

Where obl is obliquity and lat is latitude and ST is local sidereal time, and the quadrant of the answer can be determined from the algebraic signs of the answer and the numerator in the arctan.

WHERE DO THEY FALL?

The East Point is usually in the twelfth or first house of the chart. The Antivertex is usually in the eleventh, twelfth, first or second house. At extremes of latitude, the Antivertex can vary widely, falling into the third or tenth houses and occasionally into the west side of the horoscope.

The Ascendant, East Point and Antivertex all intersect at zero degrees of Aries and zero Libra. Thus, these angles will begin to cluster from late Pisces through early Aries and late Virgo through early Libra. The Ascendant, East Point and Antivertex will be the most spread out (often in three different signs and houses) when Cancer or Capricorn is rising.

Note that the East Point will always be within a five degree square to the Midheaven. If it is not, check your calculations.
INTERPRETATION

Both the East Point and Antivertex can be interpreted as auxiliary Ascendants. That is, they function as additional keys to one’s basic identity, action, energy, drive and self-expression.

They do not seem to be AS important as the actual Ascendant, but do offer useful clues to major themes in the nature of the individual. Either angle requires more attention when a planet falls closely conjunct it. This is almost as significant as having that planet conjunct the Ascendant. The planet(s) involved denote major, keynote principles of that individual’s sense of self, identity, assertion and being in the world.

A good example is former President Jimmy Carter. His East Point conjuncts his Saturn in Scorpio. His Antivertex conjuncts his Jupiter in Sagittarius. His East Point and Saturn conjunct his Juno in Scorpio. The conjunction with Saturn symbolizes his energetic pursuit of executive power, the ambition to make it to the top. Jupiter symbolizes our ultimate values, including traditional religious beliefs (as well as education, spiritual quests, travel, etc.) Jupiter combined with the Ascendant, Mars, first house, Aries or East Point or Antivertex can manifest as the missionary type: “I have the truth and it is the only truth. Take it, world!” The conjunction of the East Point to Juno, the “marriage asteroid” indicates a close, personal involvement in a committed partnership; the desire for an equal sharing. Jimmy Carter demonstrated his power drive in seeking and obtaining the U.S. Presidency. His marriage to Rosalyn was and is very equalitarian; she is reported to have tremendous influence and impact in his decisions. His strong (Baptist) religious convictions were particularly unusual for a modern-day politician.
HOUSE PLACEMENT

We begin with house placement because it is the most limited and simplest to cover. Since it IS limited, it is NOT the most important factor, but a part of the picture. (Aspects are the most important factor, in my experience.) Generally, house placement suggests very mild themes. Pay attention when a theme or issue is repeated by other configurations in the chart. Always, what is most important in the nature and horoscope will be repeated—said over and over again.

When the East Point or Antivertex falls in the twelfth house, there is a slightly Neptunian flavor to the identity, assertion, basic self-expression. This can manifest as idealism, high expectations, grace in action, escapism, or a number of variants. Extremes include, “I am perfect and can do as I please.” versus “I SHOULD be perfect and if I am not, then I am nothing.” God and the infinite are a role model for self.

An eleventh house placement suggests Uranian overtones to the identity. There is a hint of the rebel, the revolutionary. Personal freedom is more emphasized. Unique self-expression is more significant. This can be original, innovative, creative or chaotic, unpredictable, destructive. Friends and open-minded activities, associations are role models for the individual.

Placements in the first house add a little emphasis to the “I am what I am” theme. There is a little more directness, forthrightness in personal self-expression. Freedom needs are slightly more intense. Whoever the person is, the identity is in a bit more “pure” form, more readily apparent.

Second house placements tie the theme of pleasure from the material world to the self-expression. This can range from pure self-appreciation (“I like myself.”) to hedonism, potential over-indulgence in food, drink, possessions, collecting or spending money, etc.
THE WEST SIDE STORY

If the East Point and Antivertex operate as auxiliary Ascendants, then logically the West Point (opposite the East Point) and the Vertex (opposite the Antivertex) operate as auxiliary Descendants. Again, they are not usually as important as the actual Descendant, but do imply themes. If repeated elsewhere in the chart, the themes are significant.

The Descendant, Vertex and West Point are all keys to our close, committed relationships. They symbolize the feelings and experiences we seek through close others (spouses, live-in partners, therapists, etc). Often, they operate as points of projection, that is, these angles can point to qualities we tend to meet first through other people; attributes of ourselves we may learn to face through seeing someone else express the energy. The danger with projection is overdoing. If one person in a relationship is “doing it for” someone else, the first person is likely to do TOO MUCH of whatever the quality is.

So, each angle axis—Ascendant/Descendant; East Point/West Point and Antivertex/Vertex relates to that basic self/other polarity. Each gives us clues about balancing self-will and independent action with sharing and committing to others. Generally, it is easiest to personally identify with the eastern end of each axis. It is easiest to disown and see as “out there” (in other people) the western end.

This potential of “giving away” a part of who we are and unconsciously attracting other people to manifest that missing side contributes to what has been called the “fated” quality of the Vertex. Where other people are involved, we have less control and less power than where we are concerned only with our actions and attitudes as an individual. People who externalize responsibility for their own lives call such interactions “fated.” I prefer to operate within the world view that life is a mirror; we attract people we can learn from. Everyone in our lives is teaching us about a part of our own nature and potentials.

Both axes then (East Point/West Point and Antivertex/Vertex) point to a basic self/other polarity in the life that must be faced. In any opposition, the goal is integration. There is a natural complementarity. Both ends need each other to be fully effective. There are two major dangers with any opposition (polarity) in the horoscope. One danger is swinging from one extreme to the other. It is not uncommon for people to overdo one end of a polarity, then—in reaction—go to the opposite extreme. Some people spend their lives flip-flopping from one end of the seesaw to the other. The second danger is projection. In that case, the individual identifies with one end of the polarity and denies its opposite. So, unconsciously, that individual attracts other people who are expressing that opposite quality. The problem is, they are usually carrying it to an extreme. So, when we see exaggerated behavior, it is a good idea to look into our own psyches at what we may be denying.

Each opposition brings a set of themes connected to that polarity. So, East Point/ West Point or Antivertex/Vertex across the first and seventh houses is the basic self versus other polarity. This can be the pull between self-assertion and doing what one wants versus pleasing and accommodating to others. It can be the dilemma of freedom (personal independence) versus closeness (a committed love relationship). We can alternate between extremes or overdo one end, or pick someone (unconsciously) who will overdo for us.

Placing these angles across the second and eighth houses puts the focus on the issue of handling the physical, sensual world comfortably with others. We may be internally torn between self-indulgence (whether around food, sex, money, smoking, drinking, etc.) versus control of the appetites. We can externalize the conflict by identifying with one end and unconsciously selecting a partner to play out the opposite end of the seesaw. Then we spend our time fighting about spending versus saving or sex or other forms of giving, receiving and sharing the physical pleasure world. The goal is to be comfortable within ourselves in our handling of physical possessions and pleasures and also to be able to receive from others; give to others and share equally with others in an intimate context.

Where these angle axes fall across the fifth and eleventh houses, we are again dealing with freedom versus closeness issues. A part of us wants to be independent, off doing our own thing, unique, not following anyone else’s rules. Another side of who we are wants to love and be loved; to be special; to be admired and looked up to in an intense, emotional relationship. One side of our being emphasizes the intellect, the detached, objective mind; another side values the heart, feelings and emotional responses from others. We may externalize the conflict by feeling torn between friends and lovers or children. Or, we can identify with either end and attract the opposite from others in our lives, or flip-flop from one side to the other until we learn to have some of both in our lives.

The opposition across the sixth and twelfth houses by these angles points to a need to truly blend our dreams with reality. We are learning to be both idealistic and realistic. If not handled, we may swing from rose-colored glasses, gullibility and disillusionment or escapism to hard-nosed insistence on doing everything exactly by the book. Or, we can identify with one end, and attract significant others who overdo the opposite side. Our work arena (and our health) are often areas where we are learning to take the small, reasonable steps to reach our visionary goals. If we do not integrate this polarity, we may job hop, each time looking for a more ideal situation, or suffer from ill health because we are not doing that incredible, wonderful visionary work which we feel we OUGHT to be doing. It is all well and good to have a “calling.” We must just be able to ground our visions in the physical world, to do what is necessary to turn them into an actuality.

Remember, anything in the chart which is important will appear in the form of a repeated message. Major issues and themes are highlighted in a number of different ways. These two angle axes can suggest potential areas of analysis, but we need to look for confirmation in the rest of the chart to be sure the focus we choose is truly of major import.
http://www.ccrsdodona.org/m_dilemma/1983/vir/epav.html


I have Maritha Pottenger's book on Vertex and East Point.

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 05, 2010 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Ate was a Greek Goddess, daughter of Zeus and Eris.

Atë or Aite (pronounced /ˈeɪtiː/, Greek: ἄτη a Greek word for "ruin, folly, delusion", is the action performed by the hero, usually because of his or her hubris that leads to his or her death or downfall. There is also a goddess by that name (Atë) in Greek mythology, a personification of the same.

In Homer's Iliad (Book 19) she is called eldest daughter of Zeus with no mother mentioned. On Hera's instigation she used her influence over Zeus so that he swore an oath that on that day a mortal descended from him would be born who would be a great ruler. Hera immediately arranged to delay the birth of Heracles and to bring forth Eurystheus prematurely. In anger Zeus threw Atë down to earth forever, forbidding that she ever return to heaven or to Mt. Olympus. Atë then wandered about, treading on the heads of men rather than on the earth, wreaking havoc on mortals. The Romans had a similar goddess named Serum.

The Litae ("Prayers") follow after her but Atë is fast and far outruns them.

Apollodorus (3.143) claims that when thrown down by Zeus, Atë landed on a peak in Phrygia called by her name. There Ilus later, following a cow, founded the city of Ilion, that is Troy. This flourish is chronologically at odds with Homer's dating of Atë's fall.

In Hesiod's Theogony (l. 230) the mother of Atë is Eris ("Strife"), with no father mentioned.

In Nonnus' Dionysiaca (11.113), at Hera's instigation Atë persuades the boy Ampelus whom Dionysus passionately loves to impress Dionysus by riding on a bull from which Ampelus subsequently falls and breaks his neck.

In the play Julius Caesar, Shakespeare introduces the goddess Atë as an invocation of vengeance and menace. Mark Anthony, lamenting Caesar's murder, envisions

"And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,

With Atë' by his side come hot from Hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war, ...

He also mentions her in the play Much Ado about Nothing, when Benedick says, referring to Beatrice,

"Come, talk not of her. You shall find her the
infernal Atë in good apparel....

In her book The March of Folly, Barbara Tuchman notes that the earth has been called The Meadow of Atë.[1]
http://www.answers.com/topic/ate-2

I am not crazy about having Sun-Sidereal Ate opposition in opposition to my geocentric,heliocentric Eris Nodal axis

also in regular chart, I have Sun-Ate opposition with 1'38 orb

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depth
Knowflake

Posts: 134
From: Al Kuwayt
Registered: Mar 2010

posted April 05, 2010 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for depth     Edit/Delete Message
there are so many charts & i don't relate to any other than my natal. what are helio & sidereal for?

i've sidereal(fagan/bradley)

earth/moon conj nat ic
mars conj nat merc/nnode
saturn conj nat asc
uranus/nept conj nat karma
angel conj nat anti-vertex & angel
karma conj nat venus
juno conj nat vertex
spirit opp nat karma
sidereal angel opp sidereal juno


helio

venus/pluto conj nat mc
amor conj nat asc
spirit opp nat uran/nept
helio juno opp helio angel
hel merc conj hel mars


helio-sidereal

jupiter conj venus
mars conj uranus/nept
mars opp spirit
karma opp valentine
venus opp earth/moon
angel opp jupiter
juno conj jupiter
amor conj saturn


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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 06, 2010 01:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"there are so many charts & i don't relate to any other than my natal. what are helio & sidereal for?"

Heliocentric chart is said to check out things pertaining to higher self.

Sidereal chart is said to check out things pertaining to completion of karma.


------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 06, 2010 01:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
DD,

What do you think about my chart ruler Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio conjunct my Sidereal Atlantis in 17'57 Scorpio?

It seems that I have some serious karma involving Atlantis that I need to complete.
They conjunct my Heliocentric South Mercury Node in 18'00 Scorpio, and so collective karma involving communications,travel,and mental activity in general.


Robert Blaschke uses heliocentric planetary nodes in geocentric charts.


------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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DD
Knowflake

Posts: 3710
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 07, 2010 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
Yes; I think; maybe sid atlantis shows heavy karma in atlantis; and chartruler conjunct it gives you the mental ability to finish it now.
have you looked at the sabians?

i am still not totally sure how to interprete sidereal. i understand the theoretical difference; but how does it transfer to practical interpretation?
EX

What is the difference between

her Draco Eros conjunct his tropical Psyche

and

his sidereal Eros conjunct her tropical Psyche?

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 3008
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 07, 2010 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
I am not sure.
I usually only look at tropical zodiac any way.
I really don't focus on the zodiac signs. I mainly use them for reference points for aspects.

you could contact him and ask him. http://www.earthwalkastrology.com/

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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