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Author Topic:   Sun, Moon, Ascendant: how they interact.
Benedict Moon*
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posted August 05, 2010 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
How the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant Interact

(Tips For The Novice Astrologer)


The three most influential factors in a horoscope are generally the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant. Thus they are a good place to begin analyzing a chart. While their weights may be nearly identical in terms of their influence, their functions are different.

The Ascendant, Sun, and Moon tend to work well together when the signs involved are harmonious. An exact aspect makes them work even more smoothly. Signs that are trine fall within the same element ---- earth to water, or fire to air. water to water, air to air, fire to fire, or earth to earth. Signs that are sextile involve complementary elements

The much more difficult combinations are the Sun, Moon, or Ascendant placed within the same sign type or modality -- cardinal to cardinal, fixed to fixed, or mutable to mutable. When in the same modality, they either square or oppose one another and thus tend to work at cross purposes.


Separating Out Their Functions

People with a given Sun, Moon, or rising sign may behave similarly, though the motivation is different. Thus, a Capricorn rising, Capricorn Moon, and Capricorn Sun may all strive for success, but the reasons are different. The Capricorn Moon strives for success in order to make the world a safe place -- literally to ensure a roof over his or her head, and probably Mom's as well, as she grows older. The Capricorn rising may strive for success because of being cast in the role of family hero, the one who will distinguish or legitimize the family through worldly accomplishments. For the Capricorn Sun, success is a requirement for self-worth and its prerequisite -- Dad's approval, however fleeting it may be. (Here, the father's demands for achievement tend to escalate. Where once a single "A" on the report card received a "Well done", the Dean's List soon became a minimum requirement.)

The Sun is the core self, with its functions encompassing most of the words that begin with self -- the sense of self, self-expression, self-confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, self-development, self-sabotage, self-centeredness, and plain old selfishness. The Sun's sign, house, and aspects give us a sense of who we are and are not, and what we are capable of -- in brief, it is our identity. You'd probably be listing your Sun's qualities if you were describing yourself as "I'm the kind of person who...." You may recall the popular song by John Lennon that goes "life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." The part that makes those other plans is the Sun.

Most often, it is the father or his equivalents who lend the sense of self and of confidence described by the Sun. In old-time astrology, the Sun represented men, and the Moon, women. In today's world, where more women are developing and expressing their Sun qualities through work and creative pursuits, this is no longer as true. Moreover, I would say women have more freedom and validation to express their solar qualities than men have to express their lunar ones. However, we are in transitional generations where women still have not had maternal career role models often enough, so the rule about the Sun showing the father's influence is still likely to be true.

The Moon is more often than not the imprint of our mothers or mother surrogates. However, with many men now taking over a substantial part of child care, it would be interesting to see how the child's chart reflects that. The Moon represents a part of us that begins to develop in infancy, in our mother's arms, long before we have any verbal capacity. At that age, we do not understand who we are (the Sun) or how we fit into the family (the Ascendant); we only know what we feel -- hunger, heat, cold, dampness, rage, fear, or need. The Moon is our sense of comfort and safety, or the lack thereof. The Sun develops later and is more conscious and verbal. One has to have a sense of self as separate from caretakers before a self-concept can develop.

It is difficult to summarize in a paragraph or two all that the Moon represents -- I've written not one but two entire tomes on the subject.1 We learn much of what the Moon encompasses from our mothers and their equivalents. The programming includes which emotions we are comfortable expressing, what we do to make ourselves feel secure, our model for nurturing ourselves and others, and what kinds of women we surround ourselves with or strive to be.

For instance, a child with a Moon-Saturn aspect or Moon in Capricorn is often born to a mother with one or more of the following characteristics: older, anxious, depressed, overwhelmed with responsibilities, strongly career-oriented. The offspring of women who experience deep postpartum depressions often have placements like these. If the mother is chronically depressed, the infant soaks it up by osmosis, and depression can become an emotional keynote in the child's life well into adulthood. If the mother perpetually worries about financial security and experiences hardship, the child may come to view the world as unsafe and act accordingly.


How the Moon & Ascendant Relate

The observer may have some difficulty separating out the Ascendant from the Moon. Both are imprinted by the family, albeit at slightly different stages of development. The Moon -- the maternal imprint -- happens before the child has enough mental development to know there is a role to be played (the Ascendant), or even before it is entirely clear that the child and mother are two separate beings (the Sun). Before we have words for it, we learn whether the world is a safe place or not. We also soak up our mother's most typical emotions, and they become a predominant theme in our own emotional repertory.

I've spoken of the Ascendant as the role we were trained to play in the family dynamics, showing how we needed to behave in order to survive our early environment. A Gemini-rising individual, for example, might be the family clown, while Pisces rising might be the lost child, and Aquarius can be the rebel.

It seems to me that the Moon and Sun occur earlier in the development of the child than does the Ascendant. In order to grasp the role that family members are training us to play, we need at least a rudimentary social sense. (Bottom line, we first need a sense of ourselves as separate, which is the Sun's domain.) We need to know that each person in the family network has a part to play, and we need some degree of awareness of what our own role is expected to be within that family economy. Although the part we play ultimately becomes more knee-jerk and automatic, this role takes much of our childhood to perfect. The Ascendant, then, is social conditioning and generally conscious, whereas the Moon is much less accessible to the conscious mind.

When the Ascendant and Moon signs are complementary, they can collude to protect us from showing too much lunar vulnerability, such as being too insecure and needy or too openly emotional. Such patterns strengthen the defensive armor -- a vital element for surviving well in the world, not necessarily a drawback. However, when our true feelings and needs are covered over too rigidly, our relationships are less than authentic, and we can risk psychosomatic illness -- another reason the Ascendant and 1st-house planets show our physical vulnerabilities.

Even in mismatched signs, the Ascendant can aid and abet the Moon in avoiding feelings. Imagine the combination of "tough it out" Aries rising and "I'll work until I drop" Virgo Moon. Though these signs are quincunx, neither cuts the person any slack. The result can be a driven individual who is on the go until pole-axed by illness or exhaustion.

When too rigidly applied, an Ascendant-Moon collusion can keep us from authentic relationships. The Ascendant shows how we either cover up our lunar needs or seduce others into meeting them. When the two signs are in harmony, the chances of having one's needs met without a great deal of striving are enhanced.

Take a person with Cancer Moon and Pisces rising -- two signs that are trine. Cancer Moon often has a strong residue of dependency, however strongly it may be hidden by compulsive nurturing. Add to that a Pisces Ascendant, and the person may assume a confused and spacey facade that entices others (notably Virgos) to take over. The trine can be a greased slide, so in the absence of a nurturing environment, this combination can resort to addictions to soothe the emotions.

When two factions are in disharmony -- such as Cancer Moon paired with a ruggedly independent Aquarius Ascendant then the facade works against having dependency and security needs fulfilled. In such cases, conscious effort is required to express and meet our needs.


Pairing the Ascendant
with the Sun or Moon


The role behavior produced by the rising sign and any planets in the 1st house are a protective shell that keeps the world from getting too close and playing on our vulnerabilities. When the Ascendant and Sun are in harmony, the Ascendant's qualities give a polish to the self-expression that strengthens self-confidence and self esteem. The Libra Sun's social skills and people connections are enhanced by verbally facile and communicative Gemini rising. The Cancer Sun's need for a rewarding home life can be enhanced by Taurus rising's down-to-earth, richly sensual approach to basic comforts.

When the Ascendant and Sun are in disharmony, a less than accurate picture of the core self is presented, and the person struggles with a sense of being misunderstood and undervalued. A warm social Leo who yearns to shine can have a hard time doing so with sometimes somber "good fences make good neighbors" Capricorn on the Ascendant. A Virgo Sun could be downright embarrassed at being saddled with a disorderly Pisces Ascendant.

When the Sun and Moon are in harmonious signs, there is an ease between them. What the Sun requires for self-confidence, the Moon easily and instinctively provides. What the Moon needs for a sense of security and well-being, the Sun knows how to create. Unless other difficult planetary aspects intervene, there is also an ease between the male and female parts of oneself and an instinctive understanding of the opposite sex. With such aspects, this ease of understanding arises from a generally good relationship between the mother (Moon) and father (Sun).

When the Sun and Moon are not in harmony, the emotions and needs are what psychologists call ego-alien, meaning the ego has a hard time reconciling those needs as part of itself. ("I shouldn't need that, I'm too..." -- too strong, too rational, too whatever.) Consider the inner discomfort of an Aries Sun who has Moon in Cancer. A "real men don't wear galoshes" Aries Sun is irked and humiliated by the perceived wimpiness and insecurity of his or her own Cancer Moon, who goes on a trip and insists on lugging along not only galoshes but a canister of the same tea Mom always served back home. The cautious crablike Cancer Moon, on the other hand, is terrorized and appalled by the impetuous actions of the Aries Sun, which may quit that secure but boring job just when the pension plan is building up to something substantial. Similarly, an overly intellectual Aquarius Sun hates having an irrational, emotionally labile Pisces Moon.

Combining the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant

Now that we have all three parts in action, how can we understand the combination? One method is to picture the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant as a trio of people, each with a part to play in the whole, but with its own personality and agenda. It is useful to see what alliances and what antipathies are formed between members of the trio -- these often have to do with the degree of compatibility between the signs involved.

When the Moon and Ascendant are in cahoots, but the Sun sign is the odd one out, the developing self can get lost. If the Sun and Ascendant are harmonious but the Moon is at odds or unrelated, then the facade supports the ego and self-development, but security needs and emotional expression take a back seat. If the Sun and Moon are a mutual admiration society but the Ascendant is quite dissimilar, there can be an inner harmony that isn't reflected in the image the world has of the person.

Astrodrama is a delightful technique for exploring how the trio works together -- ask one person to play the Sun sign, one to take on the qualities of the Moon sign, and a third to portray the Ascendant. (If you have no astrological playmates, take all three parts in turn or write out the dialogue.) Now put them into a typical life situation and see how each reacts. For instance, the person may be going to a job interview. The applicant is over educated for the position but badly needs employment.

Let's say the prospective employee has Sun in Aquarius, Moon in Cancer, and, fortunately for the interview outcome, Capricorn rising. With the ego at stake, the elitist and rebellious Aquarian Sun may be disdainful of the job and convinced the person in charge is no Einstein. The Moon in Cancer is worried sick because the rent is overdue and the word "eviction" has crossed the landlord's lips. Sun and Moon are badly at odds and arrive at the interview barely on speaking terms with one another. The Capricorn rising, however, covers up the internal strife and puts the best foot forward to come across as capable, reliable, and conscientious. The CEO hires Cap rising, then is sooooo shocked when Aquarius Sun shows up for work -- albeit intermittently and often half an hour late.


A Chart Example: Candice Bergen

An example of the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant being in the same element, and thus in harmony, is the chart of Candice Bergen, who has Taurus Sun, Virgo Moon, and Capricorn rising. According to her birth certificate, she was born May 9, 1946; 9:52 p.m. PST; in Los Angeles, CA; 118°W15', 34°N04'.2

Her Sun and Moon are closely trine, meaning that the sense of self supports the expression of emotions and needs, and vice versa. A supportive connection with her famous father, ventriloquist Edgar Bergen, is also indicated by that trine to the Sun. Trines are said to be lucky, and she admits that she was virtually handed her first several film roles because of her father. (I was foolish enough to toss out her out-of-print autobiography from the 1970s, so I can't cite specifics!) Nonetheless, the Virgo Moon and Capricorn rising show her to be hardworking and perfectionist, so with these early breaks as a starting place, she went on to carve out a valid place for herself as an actress and gifted comedienne. With the excellent business sense and craftsmanship of the earth signs, Bergen has been a working and successful actress for most of her adult life. Her sitcom, Murphy Brown, is now in its ninth season.

Women with strong earth tend to have an earthy charm and staying power -- especially Taurus Suns like Candice Bergen, Katherine Hepburn, and Carol Burnett, who age so marvelously. In a woman's chart, the Moon has to do with her vision of what it means to be a woman. With the trine from Candice's Virgo Moon to her Taurus Sun (sense of self), these earthy qualities greatly strengthen her appeal. While her early advantages might be enviable, Candice Bergen has more than earned her success.

http://innerself.com/html/astrology/beginner/how-the-sun-moon-and-ascendant-interact.html

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Benedict Moon*
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posted August 05, 2010 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
This is really for beginners in Astrology, but I thought it was a very interesting way for everyone to remember how to distinguish their sun, moon, and Ascendant. The part about the Ascendant being the role assigned to us by family really resonated with me too...and might explain why I've never truly identified with Capricorn energy, but end up taking on the role of responsible and restrained again and again.

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Scorp31
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posted August 05, 2010 05:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorp31     Edit/Delete Message
Good info.

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Ami Ann
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posted August 05, 2010 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you Benedict.
BTW--You are right that Cancer is a strong (cardinal)sign. It is just that the strength is different than an Aries ,for example.
It is more of a strength of standing still when a tidal wave is coming over you--lol -rather a loud, fiery, overt expression of strength .


Ami

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Shake your Pluto.

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Benedict Moon*
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posted August 05, 2010 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
You're welcome. And at the basics, all 4 of the Cardinal signs have the same strong leadership quality. With that in mind, the crab that doesn't let go of the toe or other morsel it wants is the first metaphor of Cancer's strength that comes to mind (tenacity).


I'm a soccer fanatic so forgive the reference but I've seen it played out here: many legendary players in this sport (especially Captains) are Cancers, the best attacking players in this sport are also usually cancerian, and so on.

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Lonake
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posted August 07, 2010 12:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message
Too bad it left out the Chart Ruler.
I was a very quiet/shy/scared baby, Leo rising.
Nothing like what you'd expect just by looking @ Asc.
And no one encouraged the Leo in me growing up, ever.
*But* the environment I was born into was very Leo,,, it just never "took."

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Benedict Moon*
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posted August 07, 2010 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, I guess that would have been nice throw in but I think she was going over the basics first since her targeted audience is beginners.

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bonadea33
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posted August 07, 2010 04:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bonadea33     Edit/Delete Message
BM,

I have:

Taurus Sun (Earth) - Venus in 8th,
Pisces Moon (Water) - Moon in 5th,
Libra ASC (Air) - Venus in 8th.
(I am all in 8th)

Everybody says, my Natal Chart is complicated.

B.

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Benedict Moon*
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posted August 08, 2010 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
I feel that whenever the Ascendant is incompatible with any of the other two, there's gonna be problems with overall life satisfaction. :\ You're either masking your true self or your true feelings. In your case, Bonadea, it seems to be both.


I have Sun opposite Ascendant, so I know how it is.

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Ada_Lovelace
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posted August 09, 2010 12:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ada_Lovelace     Edit/Delete Message
I have...

Capricorn Sun - earth - 3rd house
Scorpio Moon - water - 2nd house
Libra Rising - air - Venus in 5th house


Is this a decent synopsis, albeit simplistic...

Sun = Character
Moon = Emotions
Rising = Personality

?????

Thanks in Advance.

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Ami Ann
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posted August 09, 2010 04:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message
Sun is more Ego--essential core self. To me, character connotes choices in morality versus the basic equiptment you are born with.

Some energies are amoral such as Mercury, Pluto, Venus and Mars,according to Sasportas.
I am not sure about the Sun's energy.

To me, Jupiter would be more about character. I would love other people's POV's.

Ami

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DD
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posted August 09, 2010 05:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
Moon is emotional perception of the world, which is the core of your emotional side, and probably influences your overall personality more than we give her credit for.

Sun is the Selfexpression - how you actively express the lunar needs.


Ascendant is your physical essence - could be your mask, your appearance, but it goes far beyond being just a mask, it is your instinctual approach of the world, just like the Moon is the emotional.
Instinctual means that the reaction comes instantly, sometimes without you even being conscious of it; it is so much part of your reactions that you might not even see it as part of yourself, as it is not part of your conscious and mental processes.
That is the reason some people can`t identify with their ASC at all, I think.
The ruler of the ASC IS basic stuff in my opinion.

Moon: Aquarius - 2nd house - peregrine but with exact quinkunx to Saturn in 8th house

Sun: Sagittarius - 1st house - exact conjunct Mercury

ASC: Sagittarius - conjunct Neptune, Mars and NN

ruler of ASC: Jupiter in Pisces in 3rd house - exact square Neptune

PS: The WHOLE chart describes your character or personality.

Unless you mean by "character" moral values and principles?

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DD
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posted August 09, 2010 05:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
I feel that an incompatibility between Moon and ASC may even be more difficult than between Sun and ASC.

It`s like emotionally you want something, but your instinctual reaction is completely different.

Let`s say your Moon is in Taurus conjunct Saturn and your ASC is in Aquarius conjunct Uranus.

Emotionally you need the physical contact with other people, the feeling of belonging with them, a great need for stability - a 50 year long marriage to the same partner for example.

With ASC in Aquarius conjunct Uranus your first reactions are, well, unusual, sometimes even bizarr.
While emotionally you need to be hugged and held and embraced, your first intstinctual reaction may be to quickly detach and run away.

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Benedict Moon*
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posted August 09, 2010 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with you, DD, but I think both scenarios leave one very dissatisfied because either their needs are always masked and never met, or because they feel like lose their sense of self to their instinctual impressions or behaviors.

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DD
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posted August 09, 2010 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
yes, I agree, BM.

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lalalinda
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posted August 09, 2010 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message
good info, Thanks for sharing

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amowls*
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posted August 09, 2010 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for amowls*     Edit/Delete Message
My chart is easy.

Sun: Aqua, 9th house
Moon: Libra, 5th house
Asc: Gemini, Mercury in Aqua, 9th house

Once an astrologer asked if my mom was foreign and I always wondered how she knew that, but now I see it's because of my Moon opposite Jupiter. Or perhaps it's because of my 9th house Sun...?

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Ami Ann
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posted August 09, 2010 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message
I think a Scorpio ASC is big ladies shoes .
IOW, it takes a claiming of core energy to walk in it.
Maybe, that is why they have the 3(I think) manifestations of Scorpio Energy--the scorpio, Eagle and Phoenix .


Maybe a Scorpio ASC is unique in the power it DEMANDS you to harness.
I think it may be.
IF you shun it, it will manifest but in illness--emotional/physical/addictions etc
Those are my thoughts.
I am open to anyone's opinions.

Ami
Scorpio ASC
Gemini Sun(in 8th house)
Cancer Moon(in 8th house)


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meta_4
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posted August 09, 2010 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for meta_4     Edit/Delete Message
Fascinating read. Really and truly insightful, thanks!

It didn't say anything about all three being in disharmony, which is how it is in my case.

Leo Sun
Aquarius Moon
Scorpio Ascendant

I think i'm pretty together and strong at this point in my life, though it took a great deal for me to get there.

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DD
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posted August 09, 2010 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
And all in the fixed signs, which I personally consider to be the most passionate people on earth (passion with an unwillingness to let go - sure Aries can also be passionate, though in my book it is more a hotblooded enthusiasm lol Aquarius doesn´t look passionate on first glance I know, but to be THAT scared of passion you must have been really burned by it, must you not? Aquas are actually very passionate, they are just scared to surrender to it).

How are you dealing with the new Moon?
It`s close to your birth fullmoon, isn`t it?
Any new projects, love or things on the horizon?
Well it is opposing my Aquarius Moon on 17 Aquarius.
I`m packing all my things, tomorrow I am going to move out.
But honestly, where did all that stuff come from? Why do I have all of this?
WEll, I detached myself from some of my earthly posessions, got rid of old videos I will never watch again, luckily a neighbour was interested in them and so I told her to look what she wants to have and take it.
I "donated" her also a set of towels (which I had bought and never unpacked - jeez, that is how forgetful I sometimes am, of no use in practical things), as she is wanting to move out from home, too (she is 22), but has just started a job, so doesn`t have all that much money.
And in a minute or so I am going to pack a big bag with old, but still good shoes, as they will come to collect some old clothes and shoes for mentally handicapped people.

Feels really good to give it away. Not just to be rid of it, but because I know it might be of use for other people.

Enough of my rant.

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comica23
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posted August 09, 2010 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
If the Sun and Moon are a mutual admiration society but the Ascendant is quite dissimilar, there can be an inner harmony that isn't reflected in the image the world has of the person.

I often feel that my Aries side (Sun/Moon/Venus/Mercury/BML) is not very known by others, unless I feel secure enough to show them. I often tend to be Virgo AC with someone I barely know. There are times my Aries side gets too much enthusiasm and comes out, but it often feels weird if the other person doesn't seem to be in the same page that it would withdraw quickly lol.

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AcousticGod
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posted August 09, 2010 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
This is a fascinating subject, and it was a good read. I also found the part about our Ascendant being a role programmed by our family interesting. I was always the clever one and the artist: Gemini Rising. It wasn't my place to be ambitious. Instead I was attractive and charming.

As far as the interaction between my placements, I have a pretty bizarre scenario.

Sun in Capricorn
Moon in Virgo
Asc in Gemini

It would seem that my Sun & Moon are cooperative, but they're actually square. It would seem like my Moon & Ascendant are discordant, but they're actually trine. My Ascendant's also quincunx my Sun. My Sun gets the short end of the stick.

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Benedict Moon*
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posted August 09, 2010 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
AG, that's actually my favorite part of the article as wellbecause its just so true for me and 90% of the people whose Ascendants I know of. In the case of my Capricorn Ascendant, it was the case of 'Am I my brother's keeper?'. I was personally expected to be more responsible than AND for everyone else. NGL, there is a resentment that comes with it. I'm still close to my family, but the more and more autonomous I become, the less I consult them first before doing something. It's hurtful to them, but at the same time it was unfair when they put me to a higher standard than everyone else.


Comica: I always forget that you're a triple Aries because you come off so much more mellow and earthy...its definitely that Virgo ASC. I have the same issue with My Capricorn Asc vs. my Cancer sun. Are you able to personally identify with the Virgo in any way? Or do you feel its very unrepresentative of your true nature?

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cathy
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posted August 10, 2010 12:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cathy     Edit/Delete Message
Is there a way of figuring out an ascendent?
I don't have a birth time and have no way of
finding out what it was.

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BearsArcher
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posted August 10, 2010 12:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BearsArcher     Edit/Delete Message
Even in mismatched signs, the Ascendant can aid and abet the Moon in avoiding feelings. Imagine the combination of "tough it out" Aries rising and "I'll work until I drop" Virgo Moon.


______________________

Wow.. I can totally understand that. I have a Virgo Ascendant and an Aries moon (I am a Sag Sun).

However, I have an emotional mother- Cancer Moon, Cancer Sun, Scorp Ascendant, and mostly stoic father- Cancer moon, Cap sun and Cancer Ascendant. His mother was an Aries and his Father a Scorp.

My brother is a bit different with a Sag Sun / Scorp moon and Aqua ASC.

Thank you for the post

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