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Author Topic:   Entering the World of Astrology: Orb Mania
Dy-na-mi-tee
Knowflake

Posts: 558
From: Cloud 22, Jupiter Ave, Lalaland
Registered: Jun 2010

posted August 18, 2010 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dy-na-mi-tee     Edit/Delete Message
When people delve into astrology, one of the things they seem most frantic about is ORBS.
(Do I have this aspect? Do I have that aspect? Do we have Moon/Venus -- Pluto/Neptune in synastry - If so, are we definitely soul mates? etc etc)

I think this 'Orb Mania' is due to the fact that some astrologers are very 'harsh' when it comes to orbs and they venture to tell the person what things *are* and *are not* a part of their personality.
I think this approach is misguided.

(An astrologer should be an 'adviser' and state their opinion on the matter.. This opinion will never be set in stone, because the astrologer is only human and has his/her own interpretation and his/her own views - based on their intuition, experience etc.
An astrologer should not venture to tell a client: This is WHO/WHAT you are. This is WHO/WHAT you are not. This is what you are capable of (e.g. an IT job). This is what you are incapable of (e.g. sculpture).
What if the person wanted to sculpt and it turned out they were very good at it?
Basically - I don't think astrologers should inhibit people's potential. I have heard stories like 'X thought he had a Venus/MC conjunction and went on to be a singer. He got singing lessons and was very good at it. X was told by an astrologer that the conjunction is out of orb/or his AC is not correct or whatever else... and X's morale went down so he did not put as much energy into his music any longer, thinking he would fail.. and eventually quit.' I find this kind of thing disturbing.)

_________


Whenever you personally find something helpful and you see a particular interpretation *in* yourself.. whether or not you have this particular aspect (by degree) and whether or not some astrologers count it, while others do not - is meaningless.

For whatever reason you see those particular traits in yourself.

For instance - If I read a book on "The Human Mind" and a paragraph in that book was helpful, and FIT for my own mental patterns and personality - I would take that away from it.

If I read a book on Jupiter-Sun aspects and something they said FIT me, I would find that helpful. Sometimes they also incorporate advice on how to best deal with/use these traits in your personality, and I would consider the advice.

I have no aspect whatsoever between my Sun and Jupiter.. but it is entirely irrelevant. At that point in time in that particular book - that particular astrologer captured something that resonates with ME. And I can take that away from reading the book.

I mention all this because sometimes I see people on here getting very frantic about having a particular aspect at the right degrees, not just in natal, but also in synastry.

From my perspective - if you felt something was correct for your situation/your relationship, and helpful to you, when you READ it - It doesn't really matter *where* you read it or who wrote it - and it doesn't matter whether you have the aspect or not.

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Dy-na-mi-tee
Knowflake

Posts: 558
From: Cloud 22, Jupiter Ave, Lalaland
Registered: Jun 2010

posted August 18, 2010 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dy-na-mi-tee     Edit/Delete Message
Just my Onion...

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raspberri
Knowflake

Posts: 752
From: venus
Registered: Jan 2010

posted August 18, 2010 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for raspberri     Edit/Delete Message
I totally agree that life is what we make it.

Desire is what makes us meant for something, we don't need anyone to confirm this with astrology.

I have the perfect makings for a lawyer, I work at a law firm, I'm told all the time that I would be a great lawyer. ( I have a Libra ASC with Venus in the 9th house, along with Mercury, Sun, and Chiron. And a stellium in the 3rd house as well). But I don't feel that would make me happy. I do love learning and the culture that comes with that, but overall I'm made for something else. Something more emotional.

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vertiver
Knowflake

Posts: 653
From:
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posted August 18, 2010 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vertiver     Edit/Delete Message
The tighter the aspect - the more potent. I've realized that wide orbs (up 10 degrees) still have significane - especially if its a personal planet involved, say Moon - Venus, etc...

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4220
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I am afraid that the Barnum/Forer Effect would play more into it if any orb works

Also if you don't want any orbs in your aspects, you can always get into Hellenistic Astrology which uses whole sign aspects. This was before the discovery of the transSaturnian objects though. They don't use them.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Ami Ann
Knowflake

Posts: 3236
From: Pluto
Registered: Dec 2009

posted August 18, 2010 09:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message
I know people may disagree but I think you can feel the aspects.
You can feel the energy of them if you are oriented in this way.


Ami

------------------
To will to be the self which one truly is,is indeed,the opposite of despair.

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Dy-na-mi-tee
Knowflake

Posts: 558
From: Cloud 22, Jupiter Ave, Lalaland
Registered: Jun 2010

posted August 18, 2010 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dy-na-mi-tee     Edit/Delete Message
Glaucus - It's not that I don't want orbs in my aspects.

What I am saying is - if I READ something anywhere in this world.. in whichever book it happens to be, under whichever heading - and that paragraph SUITS me and it SUITS my personality and the advice there helps me.. then that's great!

There shouldn't be astrologers saying:

"Well you do not have that aspect, therefore THIS is not a part of your personality".. because THE interpretation itself.. and the words ON paper may actually ring true to the person for whatever reason..(whether it is due to ANOTHER part of their chart which supports the SAME conclusion ---- or ---- due to other, non-astrological factors).

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4220
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 09:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

That's one of the problems why Astrology could never be viewed as an actual science. There is so much vagueness,subjectivity,and variability to it.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Dy-na-mi-tee
Knowflake

Posts: 558
From: Cloud 22, Jupiter Ave, Lalaland
Registered: Jun 2010

posted August 18, 2010 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dy-na-mi-tee     Edit/Delete Message
Ami -

quote:
I know people may disagree but I think you can feel the aspects.
You can feel the energy of them if you are oriented in this way.

I can definitely feel the aspects also!

But other than all of the aspects in my particular chart and all of the interpretations which I have read..

I have read other things.. I have read numerology books, I have read some psychology books (although it is not a serious interest for me), I have read philosophy books, I have read Chinese Astrology and Mayan Astrology Books..

etc etc..

So FURTHER to these particular aspects in my chart, many other things CAN ring true to me (and that includes things I may read *in* astrology books which are *not* in direct reference to aspects which I HAVE in my chart - in orb).

Not if sure if it made sense..

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Dy-na-mi-tee
Knowflake

Posts: 558
From: Cloud 22, Jupiter Ave, Lalaland
Registered: Jun 2010

posted August 18, 2010 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dy-na-mi-tee     Edit/Delete Message
:edit:
Double P.

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4220
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Midpoint pictures, Declination (Equatorial Latitude) aspects,and even Right Ascension (Equatorial Longitude) aspects could easily account for identifying with wide orbed aspects


I can identify with Venus conjunct Neptune even though it is a conjunction past 9 degree orb, but I have Venus parallel Neptune with 33 minutes of arc in declinations. I also have midpoints connected to Venus-Neptune that include Mars square Venus/Neptune midpoint, Neptune square Venus/Midheaven midpoint,and Venus semisquare Neptune/Node midpoint


I can identify with Mars square Neptune with Mars square Neptune even though it's over 6 degree orb. I have Mars square Neptune with 1'01 orb in Right Ascension

of course, I have Mars square Venus/Neptune Neptune midpoint


I look at charts with a more dimensional approach. When we look at chart, only ecliptic longitude is looked at. There are other coordinates that are used. Some astrologers do use declinations. Astronomers use declination and right ascension when looking through telescopes,and that's how they find objects in space.


of course........when it comes Pluto aspects, aspects involving other transneptunians could account for wide Pluto aspects

transneptunians tend to orbit well of the ecliptic with many have highly elliptical orbits and that goes for Pluto

The difference between Right Ascension and Ecliptic Longitude could be great

for example

I have Pluto trine Midheaven with a little over 2 1/2 degree orb in Right Ascension

in Ecliptic Longitude, it's not even within orb. It has an orb of around 10 degree.


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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racole12
Knowflake

Posts: 433
From: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2010

posted August 18, 2010 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for racole12     Edit/Delete Message
I have a Sun conj Mars (by 10 degrees) and I have had a couple profession astrologers tell me that it's too wide to feel it, which at the time I was paying for a reading, and I would almost agrue with them... I do feel it and the description fits me!! It might not be anywhere close to what I feel with my Sun conj Neptune... but that damn Sun conj Mars sneeks out every once in a while (and surprising some of the people that are around me at that time. LOL)

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4220
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
My Take on Wide Orbed Aspects and Harmonics
I wrote some years ago. I made changes though (girlfriend is now exgirlfriend)


I feel that people can identify with wide orbed aspects because it's another harmonic aspect that they have like a person who has a wide orbed square might have a triundecile Also wide orbed planets could be parallel in declination which can strengthen the conjunction. For instance,I have Venus conj Neptune with a 10 degree orb. I wouldn't count that at all. I do have Venus parallel Neptune with 47 minutes of arc,and it is Venus conjunct Neptune with 3'07 orb in declination longitude equivalent chart. Wide orbed oppositions could be contraparallel in declination which can strengthen the opposition. Also a wide conjunction can be involved in a midpoint configuration. For instance,if that guy has Moon square Saturn/Neptune midpoint within 1 degree orb, then he would definitely feel the effects of Saturn conj Neptune.

I don't use more than 5 degree orb for square. I am concerned about running into other harmonic aspects. A wide orbed square could function differently due to it being an aspect of a different harmonic.

For instance, My uncle has Moon in 14'27 Aquarius and his Neptune is in 6'57 Scorpio. A lot of astrologers would say that he has Moon square(90'00) Neptune with 7'30 orb. However, his Moon is triundecile(98'11) Neptune with 41 minutes of arc. That's an 11th harmonic aspect. I read that 11th harmonic can be difficult too. Also...11th harmonic could also be about inspiration like 11 in Numerology. A master number,it has great potential but great challenges. 11 is highly intuitive, even psychic, this Master number is a channel between the sub-conscious and the conscious mind. Highly charged. Can be neurotic. I have Mercury square Mars with 7'33 orb. However,I have Mercury triundecile Mars with 38 minutes of arc,and part of an 11th harmonic pattern. 11th harmonic is prominent in my chart. I wouldn't have known this if I had used wide orbed squares. BTW..my birthday is on 29th. 29 reduces to 11. 2 + 9 = 11.

I feel that if we overlook harmonic aspects by using wide orbs for major aspects and commonly used minor aspects,we overlook other harmonic aspects that can give more detail. I already pointed this out to others about using wide orbs for quincunx(150'00,12th harmonic) would end up overlooking the biquintile(144'00,5th harmonic) and triseptile(154'17,7th harmonic). Using wide orbs for Noel Tyl's quindecile(165'00) lead to overlooking the quinqueundecile(163'38,11th harmonic). Using wide orbs for sextile lead to overlooking the septile(51'26,7th harmonic). Using wide orbs for semisextile(30'00,12th harmonic) lead to overlooking the undecile(32'44,11th harmonic).

I wouldn't want astrologers dismiss my triundecile just because they think that I have a square nor would I let them dismiss my biquintile because they think that I have a quincunx nor would I let them dismiss my quinqueundecile because they think that I have a quindecile. I wouldn't do that to any other's charts. We have harmonics for a reason.

You run into different harmonics when you use wide orbs. You can easily overlook other aspect patterns. The wide orbed aspects can have a combination influence of the wide orbed aspect and the actual harmonic aspect that it is. I guess the combination of those can be confused and stressful like 2 people fighting over the steering wheel and arguing who is the better driver.

page 113 of HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS by Robert Hand

Though we do not yet know quite what do do with it in practical work,recent research into harmonics has raised another consideration about orbs. The work of John Addey and others makes it appear that wide-orbed aspects differ qualitatively as well as quantitatively from close-orbed aspects. Thus a square of 96 degrees may have nature quite different from a square of exactly 90 degrees, because whereas 90 degrees is based on the fourth harmonic,96 degrees is based on the fifteenth harmonic(4 x 360 degrees/15 = 96 degrees). Much research remains to be done,however,before we can use this in practical chart delineation.

I can see My Moon square Neptune with 1'22 orb being an actual square. I can see my Moon square Saturn with 1'58 being an an actual square. I definitely feel them as a square,and they do form a t-square. Therefore,I have Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 17 minutes of arc. However,I wouldn't view my Mercury square Mars with over 7 degrees to be a square at all. It's a triundecile and part of my 11th harmonic aspect pattern with Ascendant,Saturn,and Uranus. Astrologers would use wide orbed configurations,but those might not even be true configurations. Also there could be midpoint configuration that helps them relate to the aspect pattern. opposition of 2 points doesn't have to be in orb to square another point. There can be wide separation of A point to C and a wide applying of B to C so that A/B=C.


I believe that looking at the harmonic chart can help see if you actually have that aspect in the 1st harmonic chart.

For instance, to see if I actually have a biquintile(5th harmonic) in my 1st harmonic chart,I would check my 5th harmonic chart to see if I have any conjunctions in that chart. 5th harmonic aspects in 1st harmonic chart appear as conjunctions in 5th harmonic chart. If they appear as conjunction in 5th harmonic,then they actually are in biquintile. I am not sure about the orbs yet. I read that harmonic orbs are different from conjunction regular orbs in 1st harmonic chart. I read that they can be considerably wider than in a 1st harmonic chart. I was reading that it can be past 15 degrees. I have Sun trine(3rd harmonic) Moon with 2'10 orb that appears Sun conjunct Moon with 6'28 orb in the 3rd harmonic. It seems it's multiplying the harmonic number with the orb to get the orb in the harmonic chart. I have Moon square(4th harmonic) Neptune with 1'22 orb, and it appears as Moon conj Neptune with 5'31 orb in the 4th harmonic chart. Trines are tricky too. Trine is also trinovile. A trine within 2 degree orb will appear as a conjunction in 9th harmonic chart. My exegirlfriend's Sun trine Uranus with 14 minutes of arc appear as Sun conjunct Uranus with 2'07 orb in 9th harmonic chart. Her Sun trine Jupiter with 1'41 orb appear as Sun conjunct Jupiter with around 15 degree orb in 9th harmonic. BTW..If a synastry involves trines 2 degrees and less,they form conjunctions in 9th harmonic chart. My exgirlfriend's Venus trines my Ascendant with 3 minutes of arc. In our 9th harmonic chart synastry,her Venus conjuncts my Ascendant with 29 minutes of arc. 9th harmonic chart is used for marriage in Vedic Astrology. It's called the navamsha.


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4220
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 10:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
a 10 degree conjunction is a 36th harmonic aspect

36 x 10 = 360 degrees

1/36 is half of 1/18 which is half of 1/9

36 divided by 9 = 4


I have Venus 36th harmonic Neptune exact in the regular chart (1st harmonic).
the 10 degree Venus-Neptune conjunction.


in a 9th harmonic chart, the Venus 36th harmonic Neptune aspect appear as Venus square Neptune (4th harmonic aspect)


in a 36th harmonic chart, the Venus 36th harmonic Neptune aspect appear as Venus conjunct Neptune (1st harmonic aspect)

4th harmonic x 9th harmonic = 36th harmonic


I read the following about the 36th harmonic

Applied Harmonics

Using the 36th harmonic chart, one can immediately see which planets form 10°-angles (360 : 36 = 10), since all of these planets will stand in conjunction. One could for example take the number 36 as indicative of an ability of fine problem solving: 36=(2x2)x(3x3), as a tension between opposites and the striving for solution multiplied many times. In that case, the 36th harmonic would tell us about someone’s approach to problem-solving and of the difficulties to be reckoned with. Within the 36th harmonic one can use major aspects, one can compare the harmonic and the natal charts, one can relate transits to the harmonic positions to events, etc. Finally, the 36th harmonic can be related to the 36th year of life - since it is the 36th time one has completed the journey around the sun, the person will be sensitive to this frequency.

When working with harmonics, one of the difficulties one meets with lies in determining the particular significance of each harmonic, in other words, in finding out what the symbolic value of the numerical factor is. In practice, one usually reduces the numbers in question to multiples of those numbers whose interpretation is assured – as in the above-mentioned example. Another means of arriving at the meaning of the higher values is to resort to cross-sums and other mathematical and numerological practices. In theory, one could calculate an endless number of harmonic horoscopes for each natal chart. One is left with the choice of resorting to a vague numerological mysticism or working toward a systematic evaluation of the subject through comparative study.
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_harmon_e.htm


36th Harmonic (H36)

This squirmy little graph is a beautiful specimen of the 36th harmonic, with its signature 3 peaks per zodiac sign. I call H36 the "fat, dumb and happy" harmonic. It doesn't correspond with the any of the usual aspects of astrology, so there's a feeling of disconnectedness or disorganization, and more than the normal amount of mindless, unconscious behavior. However, unlike other "noise" harmonics (such as H24 or H48), the 36th seems surprisingly cheerful about the situation. It says, in effect, that sure things are screwed up now, but it doesn't really matter much and frankly, I don't care. People are content to just bumble through the day and keep smiling. http://members.bitstream.net/~bunlion/bpi/ExHarm.html


All objects in space aspect each other if you consider harmonics.


Theodor Landscheidt devised aspects by the golden section. Some of the aspects run into the major aspects.


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4220
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 19, 2010 12:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
This is a chart of my Mercury,Mars,Saturn,Uranus 11th harmonic configuration. It includes the wide orbed Mercury square Mars and the wide orbed Mercury quindecile Saturn. I found out in late 2002.

The 11th harmonic triangle of Mercury,Mars,Saturn has a corresponding midpoint picture of Mars oppose Mercury/Saturn midpoint.

Tthe 11th harmonic configuration includes Saturn in Gemini aspecting its dispositor Mercury and Mars in Aquarius aspecing its dispositor Uranus.

Looking at my 11th harmonic aspects helped me understand how my mind works.


The 11th harmonic is said to be about the following:

This is a really rough aspect, and wholly unused among traditional astrologers. There is a lot of Biblical symbolism concerning the number 11 itself, and all of it is has to do with insufficiency, frustration, and incompletion, a situation that just falls short of the more whole and complete number 12. It also seems to be a somewhat revolutionary number, as it expresses dissatisfaction with the status quo and fuels a need to overthrow it. Oddly, in numerology it is called the number of the World Savior, but that may also have overtones of overthrow. Remember what Christ did to the money-changers and you may get a hint. Also His statement, “Think not that I came to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance with his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” (Matthew 10:34-35). Troublesome stuff – that’s OK if you’re the Son of God, but hard to handle as a mere mortal. The Ayatollah Khomeini’s chart was loaded with it... http://www.astrococktail.com/minoraspects.html


Transneptunian dwarf planet candidate Sedna was discovered in November 2003. I found out that Sedna aspected my Mercury,Mars,Saturn,Uranus 11th harmonic. A 5 point 11th harmonic configuration. Of course, Sedna added a "far out" dimension to my thought processes. It definitely helped me understand how I think.
Mercury,Saturn,Uranus,Sedna are in an 11th harmonic isosceles trapezoid with corresponding midpoint pictures of Mercury oppose Saturn/Sedna midpoint and Sedna oppose Mercury/Uranus midpoint as well as the planetary picture (used in Uranian Astrology) of Mercury/Sedna midpoint oppose Saturn/Uranus midpoint. The planetary picture is on my lunar nodal axis.


5 point 11th Harmonic Configuration:
Mercury 3/11 Mars - '37
Mercury 5/11 Saturn - '25
Mercury 1/11 Uranus - '19
Mercury 5/11 Sedna - '07
Mars 3/11 Saturn - 1'02
Mars 4/11 Uranus - '18
Mars 2/11 Sedna - '45
Saturn 4/11 Uranus - '44
Saturn 1/11 Sedna - '17
Uranus 5/11 Sedna - '26

corresponding midpoint pictures:

Mercury oppose Saturn/Sedna midpoint - '16
Mars oppose Mercury/Saturn midpoint - '50
Sedna oppose Mercury/Uranus midpoint - '17
Uranus oppose Mars/Saturn midpoint - '13
Mercury/Sedna midpoint oppose Saturn/Uranus midpoint - '01


I also have 11th harmonic aspects involving the Ascendant

Ascendant 2/11 Mercury - '33
Ascendant 3/11 Saturn - '08
Ascendant 1/11 Uranus - '52
Ascendant 4/11 Sedna - '26

There is a corresponding midpoint picture of
Uranus conjunct Mercury/Ascendant midpoint - '36

I have Sun 1/11 Jupiter with 12 minutes of arc. It's actually part of a 22nd harmonic triangle with my Venus. It has a corresponding midpoint picture of Venus conjunct Sun/Jupiter midpoint with 2 minutes of arc.

I also have Moon 3/11 Midheaven with 7 minutes of arc.


I use no more than 1 degree for 11th harmonic aspects. I extend up to 10 minutes if part of an aspect configuration.

11th harmonic is very prominent in my chart.
In my chart, Uranus is unaspected. Looking deeper, we know the reason why. It's strongly aspected through the 11th harmonic.

I like to look at configurations involving other harmonics when I do readings. I think that they can give insights that aren't seen by looking at the chart in the mainstream way. Seeing my 11th harmonic configuration, it makes sense for me to look at charts differently.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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