posted April 10, 2011 08:15 PM            

quote:

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don't see all of his comments as hurtful, more helpful, excepting the "brick layer's shoulders", I honestly don't know his train of thought for that comment.

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SO -- You are excepting this?

Just pointing it out.. since it looks like a small/little disclaimer at the end of a huge post of you defending his behaviour.

posted April 10, 2011 08:26 PM            

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Have you ever been out with some of your girlfriends and one of them has pointed something out such as; "your lipstick is a tad smudged, you've got a little something in your teeth, your label is hanging out" etc. Does this have the same effect as him saying, "those clothes don't suit you"?

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There is a difference between telling someone their lipstick is smudged so that they don't feel embarrassed (when they find out later - that it looked bad and was smudged all along etc)..... and giving someone the "subjective" opinion that he BELIEVES in his own mind - that her clothes do not look nice on her.
She can make her own choice in clothing.
And so can he.
This is very controlling behaviour.
I wouldn't go and tell my friends or bfs to wear what I want them to wear --- and stop wearing the things I dislike.
And I do feel like this ^ is what his words were getting at.

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I see it as him trying to help you to look your best. If you wore a dress that made your ass look huge wouldn't you want someone to tell you about it?

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NO. Because this is SUBJECTIVE.
You might personally think something looks bad... while 10 other men and women might like it.
You (and her own Virgo) are not the Gods of fashion - and what should OR should not - be worn.

I also see him as trying to help her look"her best"... "her best" - FOR him -- that is... from his perspective -- What turns HIM on. Right?
Because she should start throwing her old clothes out - and buying new ones.. based on whatever the guy she is dating at the time - is more turned on by?
Give me a break!

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You have unfairly judged someone you have never met and assumed things about them.

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I offered a possibility (which I think I backed up with an argument. I didn't 'make up' that some men behave this way. Some men actually DO.)... and I only offered this possibility -- because much like you, I cannot find an explanation for his "bricklayer shoulders" - comment.
I think the possibility that he is doing this intentionally - is realistic enough.

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I was with one of my friends and he tried on a pair of sweats and asked me how they looked, I replied, "they make your ass look a little big".

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He was a male friend.

Would you say this to a NEW (not old) romantic interest who you have a desire to have sex with -- and who you have not yet had sex with?
Would you really make that mistake?

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:edit:

Actually I have more to say about that..

Also – the things you pointed out are easily fixed.

“your lipstick is a little smudged” --- lipstick can be fixed n the spot or in the bathroom.

“your tag is showing” – the tag can be pulled off.

“You have something in your teeth” – again – bathroom.. fixed.. 5 min tps!

If you tell someone whilst on your date --- “oh your clothes look bad on you”

WTF are the supposed to do? Feel like sh*t for the rest of the night?
Go home and change into something you would prefer?

What is the practicality of this comment?

I can understand from a Virgo perspective there is a practicality in you letting your mate know that his jeans looked bad when he tried them on. In your mind you saved him from buying them in the first place and hence wasting his money on something that looks bad on him.

Good for you! A good samaritan ^

Now, trying to keep in line with practical-thinking.. She has already BOUGHT these clothes… Is it really better that she throws out the clothes she bought or gives them to charity and buys new ones?

Is that what Virgos do these days? Earn money – Buy clothes – and then throw out the clothes they bought with the money they earned --- when their gf disapproves?

I can’t help but find this hypocritical, as I remember another age-old Virgonean argument that goes along the lines of…

posted April 10, 2011 09:37 PM            

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Originally posted by Graelwyn:
I have been getting to know a Virgo male (Leo venus, Leo Mercury, Leo Ascendant, Taurus Mars) for the last 3-4 weeks. We have been around one another for almost five years prior to this, but it took that long for words to come about between us due to this rather elaborate dance.

We get on amazingly well, and I was drawn to him from the day I saw him, but being Taurus with Pisces moon, pisces ascendant and pisces Mars,I am, at times, struggling to understand why he feels the need to point out certain things, and also struggling to keep my own esteem afloat when such things are pointed out.

For example, he quite happily cooks me things, and has me trying all the foods in his kitchen, and telling me things to see and do, we spend a lot of time together, but he will then casually say something like 'Clothes don't suit you' or the other day, comment that I have muscular shoulders, then proceeding to say 'like a bricklayer's', which is incredibly hurtful. I simply pretend to not care, but it does tend to affect me.

Why does a Virgo, on the one hand, spoil you rotten with their food, and spend hours in your company, then feel the need to say things that obviously will impact someone's self esteem? He told me once, that he doesn't think about peoples feelings when he talks to them.

I know it is suggested that Virgos wouldn't bother if they didn't care, but well, the clothes comment has sort of left me feeling quite deflated really. I don't place much importance on my appearance, but it is hard not to take such a comment as an insult.

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posted April 10, 2011 10:00 PM            

From experience, Leo-influenced individuals tend not to point out flaws in others because they know it would hurt their pride. And no one values pride more than a Leo. Bluntness is associated more with Aries, I think. Does he have anything in Aries? You did not mention what his moon is. Having a fire moon, especially if it's in Aries, with fire ascendant would explain his tactlessness (since these two energies flow easily). Air signs can be blunt too, especially Gemini (more sarcastic than blunt though)... but the whole chart needs to be looked at.

One thing to note, a Leo may advise you but they will never deliberately insult you. Also, if they love you, they will put you on a pedestal. They may even think you're perfect and can do no wrong; after all, it is THEY who chose you!

Virgos I notice are extremely critical, but they are also nice people in general and will never make such a comment as "like a bricklayer's". That is just mean, and Virgos aren't mean people.

posted April 11, 2011 12:48 AM            

But I know that with my mom that she means well, I think she feels like it's her job not to hold back on how people she cares about looks and hygiene. Way too blunt at times though
Not sure if that's true with all Virgos though.

posted April 11, 2011 01:05 AM            

But I know that with my mom that she means well, I think she feels like it's her job not to hold back on how people she cares about looks and hygiene. Way too blunt at times though
Not sure if that's true with all Virgos though.

posted April 11, 2011 01:13 AM            

I'm definitely an acquired taste. I don't expect everyone to get my sarcasm, or my particular ways. When I care for you, I try to "fix" everything and I get that some people could take that as me thinking they're lacking in some way or another. If I'm doing this it's simply because I think you have the potential to do better, or changing something may make something easier on you long term. It's not that there was actually something wrong or lacking to begin with though.

I really THINK about the conversations I have with people. All the time, every second during and after the conversation takes place. Sometimes my ideas for (what I think is) improvement don't always come out with the TACT they should..which is something I have to work on.

I can definitely see the Leo/pride thing too. I'll be honest, when someone strikes a nerve I can let the verbal "swords" fly, but I never say anything that isn't true, but just because I'm angry doesn't always give me the right to dredge people's problems or insecurities up. I'm working on that, too.

Thankfully I have really good friends who understand my humor, or know I mean well even when they don't always appreciate what I say. Through their understanding and willingness to communicate I've really "matured" in how I handle situations/people.

posted April 11, 2011 05:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Boop:
He was a male friend.

Would you say this to a NEW (not old) romantic interest who you have a desire to have sex with -- and who you have not yet had sex with?
Would you really make that mistake?

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It depends on the context, if she asked me what I thought, yes I would. I would say it more tactfully, "I don't feel they suit your figure." However, anyway you dress it up it still conveys the same message.

You seem to assume that any interaction a man has with a woman is all about sex? I'm really not that bothered about having sex with a date or not, regardless of whether I've entertained the idea, I don't specifically set out with the goal of 'nailing' women I may date. Again you seem to be suspicious of men's motives and behaviour why?

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:edit:

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“your lipstick is a little smudged” --- lipstick can be fixed n the spot or in the bathroom.

“your tag is showing” – the tag can be pulled off.

“You have something in your teeth” – again – bathroom.. fixed.. 5 min tps!

If you tell someone whilst on your date --- “oh your clothes look bad on you”

WTF are the supposed to do?

What is the practicality of this comment?

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Ok, they are easily fixed in comparison, fair enough. You don't have to feel like **** , "The only person that can make you feel inferior is yourself." Eleanor Roosevelt

The practicality is for future reference, you may not be able to do anything about it now but that doesn't mean you can't do anything about it in the future if you may want to do so.

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In your mind you saved him from buying them in the first place and hence wasting his money on something that looks bad on him.

Good for you! A good samaritan ^

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I did not view it as practical at the time, it was as simple as he asked my opinion, I gave it. His choice was his own and he has actually gone out and bought a similar pair more recently although the colour, tone and shape are a lot more flattering.

In the context and general tone of your post, I'm reading this as sarcasm and it is unappreciated. All I want to do is have a civil discussion. If I misread it and you're actually being genuinely honest with a compliment, then I apologise.

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Now, trying to keep in line with practical-thinking.. She has already BOUGHT these clothes…

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What is your pre-occupation with Virgos' and practicality, a chart is much more than just one sign.

Things in the past can never be changed, what she chooses to do with the information and her clothes his her own choice.

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quote:

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Is that what Virgos do these days? Earn money – Buy clothes – and then throw out the clothes they bought with the money they earned --- when their gf disapproves?

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Does this have any relation to the current topic of discussion or is this just a general attack on Virgos?

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I can’t help but find this hypocritical, as I remember another age-old Virgonean argument that goes along the lines of…

“People in Africa don’t even have food.. Why are you complaining?”[/B]

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You've assumed that Virgos are throwing the clothes away, when they may very well keep them and perhaps wear them casually at home with no one else around. You stated earlier that she could give her clothes to charity, yet this option is seemingly unavailable to this imaginary Virgo.

I don't understand your use of the following quote.

“People in Africa don’t even have food.. Why are you complaining?”

You should be grateful that you were born in the country you were, with the family you have and all the privileges afforded to you simply because you were fortunate enough to be born somewhere else. A right to education, to vote, to work, healthcare etc.

I'm not saying that you necessarily have not had a tough life, you may have had a terrible early life and a hard time growing up. There will always be someone worse of than you and someone better off than you. Be grateful for what you have.

As for 'excepting' the brick layers shoulders comment. I merely said that because, I don't know what his train of thought was leading up to that comment. I think it is unfair to judge someone when you don't know the context surrounding something.

I am not defending his behaviour either, I am only giving suggestions from the point of view of a fellow Virgo Male.

You seem to think that all men are normally only interested in women's physical qualities. I cannot comprehend why you feel this way but if you truly feel that all men will only objectify you then I'm sorry you feel that way.

Everything is subjective, but your statement that he thinks it is bad, 10 other might think it is good is a fallacy. Not only is it impossible to say what other people may think. It is equally true that 10 people may dislike it compared to one who might.

Given the large degree of societal conformity and pressure therein. You could suggest that if one person likes it or doesn't like it, more may follow. Of course this is purely fictional.

You made a comment along the lines of, "look her best for him". Do you not want to look your best for someone you are attracted to? The majority of people make more of an effort to look good for those they're attracted to or want to look good to attract attention in general.

You've said it is very controlling behaviour, so far he has only offered an opinion and said nothing more as far as Graelwyn has posted. He hasn't told her what to do with the clothes or to get rid of them only given his opinion. You seem to have jumped to another conclusion that he is trying to control her when she has not mentioned any type of controlling behaviour. Again you seem suspicious of motives and agendas.

posted April 11, 2011 10:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by blugrey:
Funnily enough, my dad has tons of Leo and tons of good aspects in his chart and he's the most critical and blunt person I've ever known. Another Leo who has a similar chart is exactly the same. They both constantly nitpick and tear other people down. It's such a double standard because they get so upset if someone does the same to them. But they do it. So I don't know what Leos you know, but my experience has been totally the opposite.

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Hmmm, what Leo placements does your dad have? It could be a case of having too much of a good thing (i.e. excessive leo energy) that is causing him to behave in a certain manner. It could also be he's really insecure deep down inside (i'm just guessing) and has a need to constantly put down other people to make himself feel better. There are good and bad points of every sign in the zodiac. When a person is heavily-influenced by a certain sign or element, naturally he will display more good AND bad of that particular sign or element.

My partner is a Leo sun with Virgo mercury/moon (ha!) Strangely, he is neither arrogant (though he has his Leo pride going on) nor critical. I've seen him brush off insults thrown at him with such ease that I could only attribute to his Libra rising. He claims that he will not stoop to the level of those people who insult him and he will not give them the time of day.

posted April 11, 2011 11:39 AM            

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Originally posted by dysfunctionalmystic:
@swiftfreeze

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posted April 12, 2011 05:18 PM            

Wikipedia - Dating: Dating is a form of human courtship consisting of social activities done by two persons with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a partner in an intimate relationship or as a spouse.

This is the meaning generally attributed to "dating" ^

I think you are putting words in my mouth. Hetero men and women can be friends and they are often just friends.
But once they are "dating" it is implicit that they are romantically/sexually attracted.

I don't think men want *just* sex. But it is one of the things they do want - as much as women do (but we're here discussing a guy). And I was making the point that when you are romantically/sexually interested in someone - you generally try to avoid hurting their femininity/masculinity -- unless it is done in a joking/teasing manner.

If you personally date women who you are *not* sexually attracted to - If this is what you were trying to say - Then you would be in the minority.
Most people would call that "two friends - hanging out" - not "dating".

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I don't specifically set out with the goal of 'nailing' women I may date.

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You don't have to 'set out to nail' women.. I really think you are reading things that have not been written.

It's a purely psychological thing. If you do feel attracted - you make yourself likeable to the other.. It's only natural to do this.. (read any book on human or even animal behaviour). Part of making yourself likeable... would be not to blatantly offend them --- and even more so -- not to offend their 'attractiveness' (in a dating context).

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you seem to be suspicious of men's motives and behaviour why

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You seem to have skipped a few biology classes... and are misinterpreting me.
Why would I be suspicious?

There is a chain here..You are born. You reproduce. You die. (not everyone takes all of these steps - but most animals DO).
You do have a penis. I assume it is functioning.
Obviously there would be a desire for sex - whether it is with members of the same or opposite sex.

In fact if there existed NO sexual desire. If people were entirely asexual and they did not have penises or vaginas... we wouldn't even have the terminology of "dating", "romantic interest", "marriage" and "family"...

I am/was sarcastic - I'm always sarcastic. It is not aimed at you or intended to insult you.

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What is your pre-occupation with Virgos' and practicality, a chart is much more than just one sign.

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I know that - But this is all the information I have about this guy (that he is a Virgo).

And if I think about other Virgo people I know... I simply cannot imagine them 'wasting' things.

In all honesty - if you bought clothing that you *liked*.. (I mean obviously you liked it since you bought it)... and your girlfriend (or someone else) told you it did not look good and that you should wear something else ---- would you start wearing it around the house only? - and buy the clothes she prefers?

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f you truly feel that all men will only objectify you then I'm sorry you feel that way.

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posted April 12, 2011 05:41 PM            

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You should be grateful that you were born in the country you were, with the family you have and all the privileges afforded to you simply because you were fortunate enough to be born somewhere else.

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posted April 15, 2011 12:06 PM            

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Originally posted by Betty Boop:

Wikipedia

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Not the best source to quote but I cede to your definition of dating.

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I think you are putting words in my mouth.

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My apologies for doing so.

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But once they are "dating" it is implicit that they are romantically/sexually attracted.

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The degree of romantic/sexual attraction van vary incredibly, it may just be for example one word spoken between the two that may have sparked an initial interest and desire to get to know each other better.

Not particularly revelevant but,
how then would you explain blind dates?

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when you are romantically/sexually interested in someone - you generally try to avoid hurting their femininity/masculinity -- unless it is done in a joking/teasing manner.

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Ok

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Then you would be in the minority.
Most people would call that "two friends - hanging out" - not "dating".

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Other people's subjective definitions don't impact my interpretation of whether it constitutes a date or not.

There are so many factors involved in two people falling in love, combine this with the fact that we know almost nothing about other people we don't regularly socialise with. Granted there will most likely be a physical attraction at the very least being the other person is good looking, to the viewer. There is a huge scope of potential for romantic interest developing, even if it was subconcious before, and sexual attraction again escalating to a noticeable level. When it may just have been getting to know someone better.

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What I have in mind is..... When a man looks at the woman he likes and is attracted to --- he would normally be noticing something like her cleavage --- rather than her "broad bricklayer shoulders".

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Graelwyn has still not defined the length or degree of relationship with this man. I am not expecting her to disclose any information what so ever. My inference was that they had been together for a period of time, since she was in his home and he was regularly cooking for her and spending a lot of time together. This leaves plenty of time for cleavage enjoyment. However, most people do find looking at one thing too long a little boring. Even us primitive instinct driven men.

I cannot comment for other people but I notice details although I typically use them for empathy, compassion and to help people.

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even the ones that don't look 'perfect' according to Virgo male standards

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Haha, didn't you know Virgo's are the ruling fashionistas of the world?

"i could not believe how many top level virgo fashionistas there were… more than ANY OTHER SIGN! (Stephen meisel, Tom ford, Claudia Schiffer, Stella McCartney, Karl Lagerfeld, Michael kors, Anna sui, Hugo boss). these hypercritical angels are actually workaholic nazis… they possess a clarity of vision that can’t be tainted, a determination of will that can’t be swayed, and a heart of loving steel that can’t easily be won." - http://intoxicatedzodiac.com/blog/category/virgo-stuff/