posted July 11, 2011 04:23 AM            

Also, I have long been having a debate with myself on whether to use Whole Signs or Placidus, and the only reason why I could not fully switch to Whole Signs was what I thought to be Saturn in the 4th influence.
(In Whole Sign, Saturn moves to my 5th)
However, in light of resent Pluto in 3rd interpretations, I've understood that what I thought was Saturn in the 4th is actually coming from Pluto in the 3rd.

Here is the interesting intrpretation I've read:

Natal Pluto in 3rd House
(Ginger Chalford) As children, we listen to our parents and / or older siblings talk about the worldwhich we know we are to inherit in time. These images of the world stimulate ourimagination, and we try to understand the common denominators of what we hear soas to put together a 'world view' of our own. Although filled with possiblemisconceptions put there by older children or by our own untrained perceptions, wediscover at some point what can be called the 'common reality'. We begin believingthings that others (including the adults) believe. We essentially agree on thehardness of objects, the smells, tastes and sounds we hear. We identify objectssimilarly so as to discuss them and to communicate what we are learning. Since, aschildren, we didn't originally have this common world view, we could just as easilyhave thought that it was possible to simply jump up and fly with the birds, or walk through a tree! With the coming of a rational approach to the world, we join the restof humanity for the sake of communicating and reaching out. The child thereby givesup his or her personal powers of perceptionm in order to assume the prevailing socialattitudes.This form of understanding becaomes automatic, and we all go through itsooner or later. The few people who resist this ordering of the world in common withothers are harshly labelled as retarded, crazy, mentally inept, stupid, etc.. Somebrain-damaged people also have had to throw out this socially accepted picture of theworld, relying instead on incomplete information about reality until they regain theirperspective (if ever they do). However, for the normal or average person, the worldappears real, solid, fixed and obviously just the way it is - and it cannot be imaginedany other way. This is automatic thinking or comprehension, a major aspect of thethird house.This house also represents the undercurrents of the mental concepts and attitudes of the father (or fourth house parent). With Pluto here, the native absorbs the beliefsabout reality and attitudes about the world from the father. With the third houserounding out the quadrant of the self, including the self-image and self-worth of theindividual, the native with this placement assumes that the response of the fatherindicates his or her value as a person. This can lead to initial self-recrimination whenand if one assumes that one is not worthy enough to deserve the father's praise.Unfortunately, in this house, self-worth attitudes as derived from interactions withthe father are taken in automatically, and included with the world view. The nativehas little incentive to rebel against any negative self-concepts, assuming that they areas real and valid as the environment, as the world itself. Thoughts are assumed toreflect logical reality rather than an imaginative one, and the native assumes that he

or she knows the true attitudes of the parents - which are taken to be more valid thanhis or her own attitudes.This develops into a personality pattern that can be recognised easily. As anadolescent, and into adulthood, this native can be defensive and touchy concerningmoral or ethical beliefs. He or she can be an extremely good manipulator, whetherrefined or not, by implying a threat of some sort if others do not agree. This threat ismost often felt, and not spoken. This native has learned to use the assumption as atool for power over others, to maintain control and to keep up the defences against vulnerability. This individual is afraid to consider that others may be right, that she /he could be wrong. 'Isn't it obvious?' may be a frequently asked question in this case.The extremes of this behaviour, as with all Plutonian influences, range fromexcessively quiet, acute self-questioning, to aggressive bragging and tendencies topick fights with others.This person may be the oddball in the family, always trying to rebel against beliefsthat others maintain easily. This person would initially have been willing to fight forthe family attitudes; but as time passes, feels that she / he must somehow assertsome individuality. This rebelliousness attaches itself almost randomly or arbitrarilyonto the assumptions which he or she believed to be true up until the rebelliousperiod. This causes confusion, as the native gets lost in subtleties and tries madly toput together a new, workable world order. Although this rebelliousness is oftennecessary to establish one's sense of power, if it isn't resolved it can bring on a senseof resignation over the inability to find personal power. Then the person may tend tofall back into petty mental habits of taking things personally, particularly if themessage is verbal or spoken. Easily roused to anger, this individual may becomeknown for his or her temper, as she / he attempts to defend parental points of view orher / his own - which are often just the opposite. These people can be hard-liners,unforgiving of their fathers, siblings or other family members who may have slightedthem in the past.They may appear to rationalise everything to excess, in order to preserve a poorlyfunctioning world view. They are constantly looking for problems to solve, as theirminds are deep and penetrating by nature - and this tends to attract many problems,too! Once they have a problem to work with, they will attack it with great mentalintensity, not sparing the feelings of anyone else who may happen to be involved.These natives have been known to unwittingly say scathing things about otherpeople, sometimes even to their face. However, Pluto third house people feel allalong that what they say is the absolute truth, and that they have a moral duty toinform everyone of what is real and what is not - as if they were just about the onlyones who know! They may not even admit that they are opinionated, preferring tothink that it is everyone else who is so intellectually arrogant.However, most of the Pluto third house bravado covers a great insecurity: namely, asense of not being able to make decisions on one's own, based upon a solid self-concept. This is where these people are apt to fall flat on their faces. Their self-concept is low initially, and they feel a need to somehow cover up this obviously realflaw. They do not attempt to disprove or disbelieve the flaw, because they actuallycrave the feeling of mental dissonance. They don't revise their own self-opinion, orlook within themselves for the answers. THey believe there is an objective, infallibletruth known to them; and that if they prove these ideas to others, the whole mentalscheme will be validated. What they are trying to do is get recognition and approvalfrom the father, yet they probably do not suspect it at all.Women with this placement may transfer their beliefs and ideologies oveto those of their husband, looking for their sense of self-worth (which is usually low) to be

validated in or through someone else. They may then face a personal struggle overwhether to let their spouse make the decisions for them. This can lead to acomplaining, bitchy demeanour and manipulative attitudes.Men with Pluto here may feel they have to accomplish great mental strides and besuper-intelligent in order to prove their worth to their father - even if he is dead andgone! They will try to justify and explain their reasoning to others, even when no-oneelse cares to listen. Both men and women with this placement can antagonise peopleand make many enemies.Fortunately, not everyone with Pluto in the third house takes the negative road. The vast majority of people with Pluto here have periodic bouts with the problems justdescribed, but are able to transcend the major difficulties thus presented, andmanage to emerge from them as strong individuals. The positive use of Pluto will alsobe notived at an early age, as the child is fascinated by the mysteries of the world heor she is inheriting. Extremely sensitive to environmental changes, such as moving toanother city or losses and gains of friends and family members (through death, birthor marriage), this child questions everything: "Why?" He or she must find theanswers, which leads to a search for understanding that takes various intriguingtwists and turns throughout life. Reality for these people is never dull, for there isalways a new mystery to solve.Very early in life, this child displays an astoundingknowledge of how things work, which can possibly lead to a scientific career. His orher ingenious and penetrating mind searches for significant explanations to life'smysteries, and is fully willing to explore novel ideas that are far ahead of their time.The thinking processes are organised almost scientifically, with a remarkablecapacity to categorise things in a unique but personally useful way. What the Plutothird house individual is looking for are the limits or boundaries of perception.Intellectual disciplines satisfy the urge for power qhich characterises this mind; andthe analytical abilities are pronounced. A kind of intuition comes from this placement,which the native sometimes cannot even begin to try to express logically, because theunderstnading has passed the normal limits of linear thinking. The life perspective ishigh and all-embracing.What the child does with this aspect in its positive sense will reflect on therelationship she / he enjoyed with the father (or fourth house parent). When there issupport from within the family for the child's efforts to search, discover and beunique, then the self-esteem runs high. The child does not feel that it is a moralinfringement to doubt the commonly accepted reality and try to find a new one.Instead of feeling that life is vicious, and that reality is inherently destructive, thisindividual will often believe, and use to his or her advantage, the concept that theuniverse is friendly and supportive.With this placement, people can focus deeply on whatever they desire, and they cansee the result in their environment. This encourages them to develop their powerswithin a mental format. Positive response comes from others and from theenvironment; and a feeling of security grows inside the self. This gives them apositive belief that all things have a reason, and that all problems have a solution.With higher and higher understanding, they begin to choose consciously what theywant to be true, and then to act from that new perspective. With each newunderstanding, Pluto people gain more mental leverage, reaching into higher andmore profound plateaus of thought. The positive Plutonian learns how to makedecisions on his or her own, and thereby evolves to a high personal level of confidence, self-worth and self-esteem. His or her perspective can be magical,without the usual limitations imposed upon it by social conditioning or any kind of pressure to become something important - something which the subliminal fatherfigure may have desired, for example.

And another interpretation:

This position affects the ability to communicate, especially with peers. If there areother indications of mental instability, this will add to it. Communication can be feltto be dangerous; there is a fear of publicity, of being revealed, a fear of exposingoneself through communication. There may be a fear of travel or a fear of gettinglost.These people are easily caught up in intrigues, or are afraid of being caught inthem. Their peers may think they are odd - too intense, perverse, overly secretive -which may be true, but may only be due to their difficulties incommunicating.Difficulties in communicating with peers and the community inchildhood may drive them to leave home early and seek a more congenialenvironment, though this rarely works. Difficulties with siblings may be the primemotivating factor. There may be a sibling (or siblings, or neighbours, or associates)who bring(s) them sorrow by living dangerously: either through an unconventional lifestyle, by having underworld connections or illegal financial dealings, or throughassociation with underground political organisations. The worst aspects may indicatea sibling or close associate who is chronically ill or insane, or who is killedaccidentally, or murdered.Early difficulties with communication may cause them to hold back and keep theirthoughts and feelings to themselves to a great extent, then pour it aoll out to one whoseems tolerant and non-judgemental; but if their choice of a confidante is poor, they will be in worse trouble then before.This position seems to restrain all forms of communication. Out of ninety-two writersin a sample, only four have it; out of 145 performers, only five. It gives a rich fantasylife, adding greatly to the ability of the imagination, but this is mostly non-verbal andsubliminal. It is good for writing poetry (of the four writers with this position, two arepoets), for casting ideas and thoughts into images, but it is difficult for publication astheir anxiety over publicity keeps them from doing anything that might reveal toomuch to the public. There may be some justification for this, because with thisposition of Pluto, they are vulnerable to slander.It gives an awareness of the dark, subliminal levels of the mind, an understanding of the animal in man, of herd psychology, of the dark forces that civilisation seeks to check but that break out and cause much of the irrational behaviour of humanity,both in individuals and in groups. Consequently, there is a great ability to manipulate others by means of playing to unconscious, compulsive drives. They are often attracted to macabre fantasies, science fiction, etc..There may be dangerous,difficult, or amazing occurrences while travelling. Travelling should be approachedwith caution. People with this location of Pluto probably should not pick uphitchhikers. There may have been a traumatic early life experience connected withschool, playgrounds, a sibling, or playmates.They are fascinated by non-verbal communication, by words as symbols, and by thegrowth and structure of language, but not so much by the ordinary use of words tocommunicate thoughts or information.(Howard Sasportas)

this is where I got them from: http://www.scribd.com/doc/54383508/Pluto-Sign-House-Aspect#page=50

So, I have this placement, natally, in both Whole Signs and Placidus, and all of the above applies to me, I'd say to the degree of 95%.

I have suffered from depression a very long time, however in my chart, Mercury is also afflicted, being in Pisces, square Moon, square Mars, square Jupiter, sextile Uranus, conjunct North Node, conjunct Vertex.

My father has been a dark figure in my life, and have struggled with his lack of faith in me all of my life. He also happens to be very "Plutonian", having a Moon-Venus-Ascendant conjunction in Scorpio.

I was also raised in the shadows of a dead sibling, an older sister who died 8 years before I was born, and who indirectly influenced my entire upbringing.

I never got along with my peers, being often considered weird or too serious/intense for my age.
Etc.

posted July 11, 2011 11:43 AM            

The more I read this stuff, the more I learn how amazing my parents were and how truly blessed I am. I see where I could have easily become like the first half of the first interpretation, but it's the second half of the first interpretation that fits me to a T.

My parents really validated my personal belief system. My mom did it by encouraging me to be independent and stand by my beliefs, even when it went against the grain and got me in trouble. She would often tell me that although she may not always agree with me, she loves me and that means she would stand by me no matter what.

My dad validated me with long heart to heart discussions about my views on the world. Sometimes my ideas and questions were really out there, and as a parent myself now, I can imagine how my asking why on everything must have driven them crazy. I still do it, which is often interpreted by others as arguing. However, it's not. The "yeah buts" as I call them are my brain's way of trying to understand the other person's point of view or direction. I am compelled to "yeah but" until every possible scenario that my mind produces is brought up, questioned, and either deemed viable or discarded. I am aware of how most people react to the "yeah buts", so I have learned that giving someone a heads about this tendency goes a long long way towards peace and understanding.

posted July 11, 2011 11:46 AM            

However, I never really had an issue with communication. Perhaps it's my Mercury chart ruler, but
communication, (public speaking and writing specifically), is among my greatest strengths. My peers
have indeed found me to be weird most of my life (until I was about 15, thanks to puberty), but I in turn also found them to be immature/dull/shallow, therefore gravitating more toward people older than myself.... But despite all that, I NEVER shied away from giving an opinion, being afraid of people knowing my business/ideas. My communication never really felt constricted, and I've always been pretty much the opposite of secretive. I
kind of have a big mouth, actually Also, I've never had a fear of traveling whatsoever. Quite on the contrary: I've had a yearning for it. I've traveled quite a bit already though, having moved 20 times total, and back and forth between 3 different countries 8 times!!

posted July 11, 2011 12:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoJo:

I have this placement as well as a Capricorn moon in the 6th, so according to traditional beliefs, I should have severe mommy and daddy issues, right? Especially considering my mom and dad divorced when I was 9 (very tough age for that to happen).

The more I read this stuff, the more I learn how amazing my parents were and how truly blessed I am. Isee where I could have easily become like the first half of the first interpretation, but it's the second half of the first interpretation that fits me to a T.

My parents really validated my personal belief system. My mom did it by encouraging me to be independent and stand by my beliefs, even when it went against the grain and got me in trouble. She would often tell me that although she may not always agree with me, she loves me and that means she would stand by me no matter what.

My dad validated me with long heart to heart discussions about my views on the world. Sometimes my ideas and questions were really out there, and as a parent myself now, I can imagine how my asking why on everything must have driven them crazy. I still do it,

Lwhich is often interpreted by others as arguing. However, it's not. The "yeah buts" as I call them are my brain's way of trying to understand the other person's point of view or direction. I am compelled to "yeah but" until every possible scenario that my mind produces is brought up, questioned, and either deemed viable or discarded. I am aware of how most people react to the "yeah buts", so I have learned that giving someone a heads about this tendency goes a long long way towards peace and understanding.

I have to go to work now but this is an amazing topic and I want to come back to try and finish my thoughts on this

---

JoJo, I'm very happy for you that you ended up manifesting the more positive aspects of this placement

posted June 15, 2012 12:21 PM            

Doing some looking-into this morning re: my natal third house Pluto (exact conjuct Moon) and came across this post, much of which is dead-on, including the "siblings with serious issues" aspect.

FWIW, I write. Have always written. I don't remember not writing. Have pretty much narrowed it down to focusing on screenwriting lately, but yes, some poetry in there, too, just to touch briefly on the writing.

posted June 15, 2012 12:47 PM            

but you'll never see anybody behind me that i don't know is there, anywhere. extremely aware of crowd/group dynamics and movement.

posted July 01, 2015 12:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by etherealenlightenment:
I also have this placement. I relate to the first interpretation 100%, but the second explanation isn't as accurate. I have a VERY complicated relationship with my father, and from this of course, as is noted in the passage above, comes my compulsive need for approval and praise from him, just to verify and assure myself that I'm on the right path (as he is older and wiser, and therefore probably knows better, in my mind). From this same issue stems my inability to make decisions without this said approval/assurance. Unfortunately, due to the nature and complications of our relationship, this support is missing, and I often find myself doubting and second-guessing both myself and the choices I make in life, often compensating for it by seeking guidance in some other wise (perceived) authority figure. This much of the interpretation is true.

However, I never really had an issue with communication. Perhaps it's my Mercury chart ruler, but
communication, (public speaking and writing specifically), is among my greatest strengths. My peers
have indeed found me to be weird most of my life (until I was about 15, thanks to puberty), but I in turn also found them to be immature/dull/shallow, therefore gravitating more toward people older than myself.... But despite all that, I NEVER shied away from giving an opinion, being afraid of people knowing my business/ideas. My communication never really felt constricted, and I've always been pretty much the opposite of secretive. I
kind of have a big mouth, actually Also, I've never had a fear of traveling whatsoever. Quite on the contrary: I've had a yearning for it. I've traveled quite a bit already though, having moved 20 times total, and back and forth between 3 different countries 8 times!!

Pluto conj. Juno conj. BML in Scorpio in 3rd
Virgo AC/ Gemini MC
Mercury in Taurus in 9th

---

posted July 01, 2015 05:26 PM            

I suppose the "surrogate father" would be a certain uncle of mine. I worshiped him until I was 4 when he did something crummy, probably meaning well but without thinking how it would look to a 4-year-old, and he and I barely get along to this day (though I've technically forgiven him, our personalities just naturally clash).

Continuing on...just no, no, no. This is way off, at least to as far as I read before giving up on it as hopelessly lost.

And as a final note, the OP really needed to edit! In case you don't know, Pinkie&TheBrain, many of your words are stuck together rather than properly placed, your paragraphs are huge chunk of texts and seem to be broken at random (that is mid-sentence). Maybe it looks different on your screen, but it's a jumbled mess on mine!