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Author
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Topic: Nature Vs Nurture--Your Thoughts
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Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 21655
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 08:40 AM
  
I have been thinking about the charts of players and sociopaths; two of my interests  How much is nature? How much is nurture?
We can never solve it, but I am interested in your thoughts.
Thank you! ------------------
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IP: Logged |
sand
Knowflake Posts: 1441
From:
Registered: May 2011
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posted September 21, 2011 08:58 AM
aren't all natals on the nature side of things? did you find nice charts of people that were sociopaths/players IRL?IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 21655
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 09:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sand:
aren't all natals on the nature side of things? did you find nice charts of people that were sociopaths/players IRL?
Right,Sand, all natals would show nature,only.
To answer your question, I am not sure. ------------------
Do You Think This Psychic Is Cute?
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
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hippichick
Moderator Posts: 858
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 21, 2011 11:06 AM
I say 50/50It would be interesting to compare two charts nearly the same natally with one a crazy and one "normal." IP: Logged |
VenusDiSirius
Knowflake Posts: 1538
From: Saturn-free H12 ;)
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 11:39 AM
NatureIP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 21655
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 11:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by hippichick:
I say 50/50It would be interesting to compare two charts nearly the same natally with one a crazy and one "normal."
Yes, you would have to add asteroids cuz they make the difference between curry and mild peppa
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http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
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BelligerentPygmy
Knowflake Posts: 566
From:
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted September 21, 2011 12:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Nature
*laughing* Dahmer's brother never killed anybody LMAOOOO. What about all the other murderers out there who have family that would never do what they did? Or, what about families with a long-standing history of abuse through the generations. So you're trying to tell me that Little Betsy is going to grow up and rape kids no matter what because her dad did it to her, and his dad did it to him? *blank stare* IP: Logged |
BelligerentPygmy
Knowflake Posts: 566
From:
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted September 21, 2011 12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I have been thinking about the charts of players and sociopaths; two of my interests How much is nature? How much is nurture?
We can never solve it, but I am interested in your thoughts.
Thank you!
Honestly? I think it's a total crapshoot and that no one can predict this type of thing. Honestly if you study the life stories of enough violent offenders and/or sociopaths you'll notice that real fast. So-called 'good genes' aren't a guarantee that people are going to be decent human beings - heck, look at the intentional banking families like the Rothschilds. Neither is good nurture - there are plenty of people who have never been abused or neglected in any way as children who go on to commit crimes and prey on people in some way. There's also those who don't fit the narrow, Eugenics-based, bull-**** concept of 'good nature' that are actually really good people; and plenty who had the worst 'nurture' who didn't go on to abuse other people in any way. I should also mention here too that according to the generally agreed upon standards of what is 'good nature', that the vast majority of the human population would be considered to have bad genes. Basically if you have ANY physical or mental illnesses in your family tree, your genes are considered 'bad'. IP: Logged |
RunAroundScreaming
Knowflake Posts: 1368
From: USA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 12:50 PM
Charts represent nurture. Astrology says that nature is due to nurture. And the sun is the father and the moon the mother. But you know that  A lot of people believe in free will when it comes to astrology. But i don't. I don't believe all people are destined to have a happy life, or even find a happy relationship. And i think certain people would be happier if they expected less of their lives and just stopped struggling so hard to make it ideal, and just kind of gave up a little. lol. IP: Logged |
popcorn
Knowflake Posts: 2423
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 21, 2011 02:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BelligerentPygmy:
I should also mention here too that according to the generally agreed upon standards of what is 'good nature', that the vast majority of the human population would be considered to have bad genes. Basically if you have ANY physical or mental illnesses in your family tree, your genes are considered 'bad'.
I agree with all you say..... CompletelyIP: Logged |
VenusDiSirius
Knowflake Posts: 1538
From: Saturn-free H12 ;)
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 02:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BelligerentPygmy:
*laughing*Dahmer's brother never killed anybody LMAOOOO. What about all the other murderers out there who have family that would never do what they did? Or, what about families with a long-standing history of abuse through the generations. So you're trying to tell me that Little Betsy is going to grow up and rape kids no matter what because her dad did it to her, and his dad did it to him? *blank stare*
Belligerent,indeed. But,unfortunate when it comes to conversation. IP: Logged |
Nightingale
Knowflake Posts: 185
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted September 21, 2011 03:30 PM
quote:
Nature
quote:
*laughing*Dahmer's brother never killed anybody LMAOOOO. What about all the other murderers out there who have family that would never do what they did?
Nature isn't just cells and blood, it is the mind and soul too.IP: Logged |
RunAroundScreaming
Knowflake Posts: 1368
From: USA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 03:34 PM
I agree with belligerent pygmy. I think a combination of certain aspects (not necessarily bad aspects) will combine to give someone a mental illness. I realized that after studying my grandma's chart who has schizophrenia.no such thing as good genes or bad genes.....just things that combine to produce an effect which looks similar enough to a mental illness to describe it as such. I dont think that someone who was raped as a child will go on to rape somebody else lol. i dont think that's how it works at all. in fact, if anything, that person will probably not rape anybody and will stay away from all sexual relations in general as they are afraid of having those feelings again. But i do think there are certain things in a birth chart that will point to someone being a rapist. IP: Logged |
britterfly
Knowflake Posts: 567
From:
Registered: Jul 2010
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posted September 21, 2011 03:47 PM
I think people are born with a certain kind of soul, and certain inclinations and dharma they are following as well as karma to fulfill, etc. I don't think there is any such thing as a "bad" chart, but I do believe every possible aspect in a natal chart can have it's bad and good side. It's up to the nature of the individual what flavor they are going to put in to the energy they are given to work with. I think it is to do with the quality of your soul. For instance, I know I have a lot of qualities inherited from my parents, but these qualities are visible to me and I am not blindly acting them out (or at least I try not to) and what I do blindly act out, I would call "nurture" and/or genetics. My higher self though can see these qualities, and see my human self from a bird's eye perspective and see where I am being petty, foolish, etc. That is my soul. My higher self has very little to nothing in common with my natal chart. My natal chart is the energy with which I am working through this life.IP: Logged |
Xiiro
Knowflake Posts: 306
From: San Diego CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted September 21, 2011 11:24 PM
The zodiac wheel tells a story from the dawn of Aries to the dusk of Pisces. It begins with the arising of individuality
Continues with individuality's evolution into an object
Passes into realization of environment
Synthesizes object and environment via their relationship, to create a subject
And concludes with the dissolution or distribution of a subject into environment. The path is echoed in nature as seeds burst open and populate the earth with masses of individual potential sprouts.
Those sprouts grow and populate with fruit, discovering their own value as a nurturing object and the value of their fruit as legacy objects.
Fruit ripens, it is eaten and eliminated, it falls to the ground and rots, plants shed their leaves, and the seeds once contained, now spread throughout the environment.
Decomposition and hibernation stow away any remaining sign of individuality. Dreams draw the mind away from the self and those still awake must work together to survive. Animals huddle together and rely on each other for warmth, support, and the passing on of ancestral knowledge. The merits of each member now plays an essential role in the success of the tribe as a whole.
When spring comes again, the bonding of compost and tribal support results in a fertile foundation for a new generation of individual sprouting seeds. I perceive reality to be based on the interplay of object and subject, individual and environment as a symbiotic whole. In this sense, nature and nurture are not opposed, but complementary. Some people born with two legs avoid walking at all costs (which is against their physical nature to use their legs), and some people who's legs were cut off by their parents, will be determined to walk on their hands (which is contrary to their nurturing). How one uses one's potential, seems based both on the conditions by which one came to exist in the moment (including both nature and nurture), and one's chosen actions, which are potential until manifest and therefor capable of being anything. I believe both sides could be healthily debated in the case of astrology. Both arguments are valid, because both are two sides the same mechanism. IP: Logged |
BeholdAstarte
Knowflake Posts: 245
From: las vegas, nevada, USA
Registered: Dec 2009
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posted September 21, 2011 11:28 PM
its both. i dont really think its that black and white. i think we're born predisposed for a certain nature, but its our environment and experiences that hinder or change our natures for better or for the worst. they work together.
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frankie2912
Knowflake Posts: 273
From: yep,ks,usa
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted September 22, 2011 01:46 AM
i've thought about this type of thing a lot and how it relates to astrology and i really don't think anyone can draw a definitive line....
for instance, i have a short, HOT temper..i am violent and can be downright mean. astrology might suggest it's my mars square uranus aspect, mars square mercury, etc.....but then i have to take into account i grew up with a dad who was very aggressive and actually encouraged me to fight. i pick up a lot of qualities from him...so what is it, my upbringing or my nature(astrology)? either way - it's part of me, so i really can never say.
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RegardesPlatero
Knowflake Posts: 210
From:
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted September 23, 2011 04:33 AM
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popcorn
Knowflake Posts: 2423
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 23, 2011 04:49 AM
Yes I agree about the free will .... All the people who are in the prision says once a time got a choice. Im glad all the sick dangerous people who are behind the closed doors on the hospital never comes out when they are so sick or dangerous and their free will are out of control.
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L0veLess
Knowflake Posts: 426
From: Midgard
Registered: Feb 2011
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posted September 23, 2011 05:01 AM
The problem with players is that we 'nurture' them by letting it happen. Letting them use us or get involved with their scheming ways. I know too that they can be VERY charming hah. It's hard not to get caught up. But what makes people get involved with the players? Is it the player or more so the one who is being played? So wouldn't those people who let it happen to them play a role into how players become who they are? ------------------
I became insane, with long
intervals of horrible
sanity.-Poe If the truth is relative then there's nothing that is truly true. IP: Logged |
BeholdAstarte
Knowflake Posts: 245
From: las vegas, nevada, USA
Registered: Dec 2009
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posted September 23, 2011 11:34 AM
frankie- its in your nature to be aggressive, all your dad did is encourage it. i know 2 other poeple who are born the same day and year as me and id say that nature wise.. were are all suuper similar in a lot of ways. IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 5809
From: U.S.
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 23, 2011 05:10 PM
Ami's always guaranteed to bring the goodies 
I think for a trait to manifest it needs biological impulse, the right environment and the right stressors.
For now, with what I know, it seems that biology accounts for 40%, home life/environment for 30% and life stressors or immediate contributing factors for the remaining 30%. But I've never before thought of putting percentages to these, I just know that they all contribute and that none of them are at 60% or above.
But a killer for example is different from a player in their impacts on society, altho people have been known to kill cheaters  .IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 5809
From: U.S.
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 23, 2011 05:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by britterfly:
I do believe every possible aspect in a natal chart can have it's bad and good side. It's up to the nature of the individual what flavor they are going to put in to the energy they are given to work with.
I agree with this, the only thing I disagree with is I think that you have nature and nurture confused. Nature is the genetics/biological inheritance and nurture is the home environment/how one was raised, what they encountered when growing up and how that impacted their view of life.IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 5809
From: U.S.
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 23, 2011 05:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by frankie2912:
for instance, i have a short, HOT temper..i am violent and can be downright mean. astrology might suggest it's my mars square uranus aspect, mars square mercury, etc.....but then i have to take into account i grew up with a dad who was very aggressive and actually encouraged me to fight. i pick up a lot of qualities from him...so what is it, my upbringing or my nature(astrology)? either way - it's part of me, so i really can never say.
I think it's both, it's your genetics, what you observed as a child and how you choose to be. The thing with the father could be seen in Sun or Saturn or 4th/10th depending on which one you use to describe the father. And if you are, like you say, still like this then you also have contributing stressors that encourage the expression in you. Because if you had a lot of people around you or encountered a lot of situations that said 'no you have to stop' then the stressors would be leading you in a diff direction. And then you'd be in a lot of inner conflict because those stressors would be 'fighting' your impulse to be who you are based on genetics and environment.
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Lindaland
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