posted November 08, 2011 02:11 AM            

I've always had a problem with deception. I don't ever intentionally lie however I withhold many things. I guess I deceive by omission. I'm very good at keeping secrets and things hidden and it always feels compulsive. I can be obsessive about wanting to keep things hidden, it's kind of nuts and I have major issues with control. I have a twin sister and she's known as the forgetful one and I'm known as the one that keeps things hidden. I've got a photographic memory and impressive abilities to recall anything from memory. It all just adds to my awareness and inclination to keep things hidden.

It's just that I'm always aware of the truth and the possibility of deception. Apart of me feels like any form of deception to others, even withholding information, is deception to yourself. It's something I'm always trying to manage and better understand, especially because I have a deep desire to speak my truth if only just to myself.

I wonder if anyone grapples with deceit and why or why not they walk the line of dishonesty or honesty? What is your Mercury sign and it's house placement and how does this affect your perspectives on deceit. Is deception strictly 8th house territory or could it trickle into the 12th? Insights are welcome.

(Mercury in the 8th)
"Those with Mercury in the 8th house are acutely aware of the unconscious exchanges between people and they need to know what goes on behind closed doors. There is a deep, serious mentality; and perhaps even an unnerving curiosity about life and death issues. An awareness of another reality and hidden agendas is something they are usually interested in exploring. Mercury here loves to investigate the unknown, and are extremely curious about what goes on under the surface of life, and enjoy solving the greater mysteries of our universe.... Mercury in this position has the ability to pick up the unspoken words of others and tends to miss nothing, reading the subtle cues in the environment. If you verbally attack them they have counter psychological missiles at hand to destroy and know how to be sarcastic or verbally wound. If they walked into a room of people gossiping and suddenly everyone shut up, they know exactly who they were talking about. Mercury in the 8th house has feelers for hidden information and secrets cannot be kept from them."

posted November 08, 2011 02:22 AM            

i make it a point to be honest in everything that i do because i've seen how stupid little mix-up's can pile up on top of the other and then create a big mess! i'm big on it! i distrust most anyone that would do something that i don't consider to be ethical and back away from them even if not physically, internally.. if i can't be around someone that i'd trust with my life, my mind then goes elsewhere and i'm on another mode where i don't even care to pay attention to half of the things they'd say.

i have a measuring stick for people and when it comes to respect.. a very simple and short one: you're

posted November 08, 2011 02:58 AM            

Manipulation is a Pluto/Scorpio thing.

But as always you have to look at the entire chart because a person can have those prominent in some way and *not* be deceptive or manipulative if they have other chart factors that outweigh or mitigate those. I'm fairly Neptunian and Plutonian but I'm pretty honest and straightforward; I think the stuff I have in Leo and Aquarius is accountable for that; both signs are known for their candor. Plus my Libra planets don't think lying and manipulating is very 'fair'.

posted November 08, 2011 03:54 AM            

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It's just that I'm always aware of the truth and the possibility of deception. Apart of me feels like any form of deception to others, even withholding information, is deception to yourself. [/B]

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I think this is the reason why I am so open bc when I am not open I feel like I am hiding myself from others and this feels in some way like lying about who I am and I may not be perfect and am working on myself but I still value myself and hiding self is like saying you are ashamed of yourself somehow.

posted November 08, 2011 11:27 AM            

I think I just realized why I have issues with deception. I'm too aware of the truth and other people and their motives and intentions and it's almost as though I want to be in control of my own annihilation. I want complete control over any information related to myself because I am afraid to be vulnerable and I don't want to be abused (I've been abused in the past). I don't want anyone to see my spades even my family because I don't trust them. My issues with deception might all just be related to my inability to trust. Very few people have really known me, I'm never forth coming with the truth, if they ask I suspiciously consider how to respond then, give an answer. The Saturn in Libra Transit over the past few years has helped me with learning how to trust myself and others, it hasn't been easy though. The inclination to be suspicious and therefore deceive comes naturally to me, I have to intentionally fight the desire to deceive others.

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RegardesPlatero: Having the moon in Cancer in the 8th house also can make things cloudy for me. I feel like I constantly have to hide just how deep I really go, how much I really do feel, how emotional I *really* am, my insecurities and doubts. I feel a catch-22: if I'm open and reveal myself, I won't be liked, but if I'm perceived as cold and aloof, I won't be liked either. I'm screwed either way. I feel pressure to hide. Plus, I do like to be a little mysterious (Venus in Scorpio).

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I agree with you, I have Sun/Mercury/Pluto in the 8th. I'm emotionally intense and I'm a deep thinker (Mercury/8th) but I can overwhelm and intimidate people. This happens all the time when I express myself so I hide my thoughts and motives. Over time people start to notice I talk about many things but not things that matter for example my history, my family or close relationships. I'll know everything about them but they'll no nothing about me besides intellectual things such as my interest in progressive movements. The truth is I can never be aloof, but I can be very secretive and I'm surprisingly very Airy. I've actually been more upfront about who am I on this forum then I have in my personal relationships, which is my intention to be less secretive and more open to being comfortable with speaking my truth.

Thanks again for all the feedback and more is welcome.

posted November 08, 2011 11:54 AM            

in short, he believes deceiving people is very important to keep harmony. it's really strange, for example instead of telling a friend who invited him to a party that he is insomniac and didn't get any sleep, he tells the friend he's gone to meet his mother for the weekend. as a result, himself and i both have to pretend for the whole weekend that he is not home.

posted November 08, 2011 12:02 PM            

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Originally posted by lechien:
as a person who has a big Sagittarius influence, i had a huge problem with my current partner who has most of his planets falling in his 8th house (mostly in Virgo = lots of squares in synastry). i still have a problem sometimes, but i got used to it and he made a few adjustments himself too... he behaved in ways i did not have the concept of. i always thought black&white is the only way. i leant better than that thanks to him, but i'm still not buying all of what he believes.

in short, he believes deceiving people is very important to keep harmony. it's really strange, for example instead of telling a friend who invited him to a party that he is insomniac and didn't get any sleep, he tells the friend he's gone to meet his mother for the weekend. as a result, himself and i both have to pretend for the whole weekend that he is not home.

he says it's negative to tell people his personal problems (insomnia in this case). i'm strongly against this way of dealing with things, but no matter how many times he gets into the whirl of lies over lies, it is the only way for him. and he does it very well, too. people believe him regardless of what it is. he does not mean harm, you see, but it's something that comes very naturally to him... i really do not get it.

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So he should be totally honest and give out personal information about himself that he clearly wants to keep private, because *you* say so?

posted November 08, 2011 12:06 PM            

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Originally posted by DayandNight21:
Agree with what Belligerent P has posted above.

To add aspects too like mercury neptune hard aspects, very difficult to distinguish truth and reality especially if lies accumulate. Also mercury in pisces gets lost in the fantasy jar.

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No really we don't agree because my whole point is that you have to really look at the entire chart, because someone can have an aspect that indicates something but if the rest of their chart goes against that and mitigates it, then it won't be true of that person.

posted November 08, 2011 12:55 PM            

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
Mercury in this position has the ability to pick up the unspoken words of others and tends to miss nothing, reading the subtle cues in the environment. If you verbally attack them they have counter psychological missiles at hand to destroy and know how to be sarcastic or verbally wound. If they walked into a room of people gossiping and suddenly everyone shut up, they know exactly who they were talking about. Mercury in the 8th house has feelers for hidden information and secrets cannot be kept from them."

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That describes my Leo Mercury perfectly. Mercury conjunct Mars gives me a very sharp tongue. I also have Mercury trine Neptune. I'm usually a pretty straightforward person, but if I feel like someone is a little too interested in my personal business- I'll lie to them. After all, Linda herself said that "it's protection against an invasion of privacy."

posted November 08, 2011 01:06 PM            

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Originally posted by BelligerentPygmy:
So he should be totally honest and give out personal information about himself that he clearly wants to keep private, because *you* say so?

Honestly, in this case I think you're the one in the wrong. This lie hurts no one and he gets to keep his personal business, private.

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posted November 08, 2011 01:17 PM            

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Originally posted by VirgoPianist:
That describes my Leo Mercury perfectly. Mercury conjunct Mars gives me a very sharp tongue. I also have Mercury trine Neptune. I'm usually a pretty straightforward person, but if I feel like someone is a little too interested in my personal business- I'll lie to them. After all, Linda herself said that "it's protection against an invasion of privacy."

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posted November 08, 2011 01:57 PM            

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
Thank you for these responses, they've been eye opening. My own issues with deception are more related to my 8th house energy and Plutonian aspects because I'm dominant Pluto and I don't have many Neptunian aspects. My Neptune is in the 11th which has resulted in me being a bit of a pushover in relation to friendships and giving more than I get back. My Mercury/8th is definitely concerned with controlling information as Lonake mentioned. I'm not easily bamboozled, I'm not struggling with that. I can separate the truth from illusions but I'm always aware of opportunities to deceive. That's the issue I grapple with, I always know the truth as clear as a diamond but having Mercury in the 8th makes me want to manage the truth, and re-organize it because I don't trust people. I think Jack Nicholson had a point in a A Few Good Men, "You can't handle the truth." Even though it's not up to any of us to decide that of course.

I think I just realized why I have issues with deception. I'm too aware of the truth and other people and their motives and intentions and it's almost as though I want to be in control of my own annihilation. I want complete control over any information related to myself because I am afraid to be vulnerable and I don't want to be abused (I've been abused in the past). I don't want anyone to see my spades even my family because I don't trust them. My issues with deception might all just be related to my inability to trust. Very few people have really known me, I'm never forth coming with the truth, if they ask I suspiciously consider how to respond then, give an answer. The Saturn in Libra Transit over the past few years has helped me with learning how to trust myself and others, it hasn't been easy though. The inclination to be suspicious and therefore deceive comes naturally to me, I have to intentionally fight the desire to deceive others.

I agree with you, I have Sun/Mercury/Pluto in the 8th. I'm emotionally intense and I'm a deep thinker (Mercury/8th) but I can overwhelm and intimidate people. This happens all the time when I express myself so I hide my thoughts and motives. Over time people start to notice I talk about many things but not things that matter for example my history, my family or close relationships. I'll know everything about them but they'll no nothing about me besides intellectual things such as my interest in progressive movements. The truth is I can never be aloof, but I can be very secretive and I'm surprisingly very Airy. I've actually been more upfront about who am I on this forum then I have in my personal relationships, which is my intention to be less secretive and more open to being comfortable with speaking my truth.

Thanks again for all the feedback and more is welcome.

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know what's nutty? i can completely relate.. i don't know what else is going on in our charts, synastry-wise, but, alas...

i trust quite openly, actually..

family, though? not for one second! i'm completely estranged from them and i have a love/hate feeling towards it because of my being so trusting.. i just accept people and things at face value and expect most everyone to know that you can't really be going around sh*ttin on people in any way because we're all we've got.. but then again, my upbringing was wildly different!

i've been on the move since i can remember.. moving, and if not moving, the people in my surroundings were moving and i was attending high school right next to a military base during afghanistan, then iraq.. we didn't have war in our backyard, but definitely had life/death be a prominent theme and from there, i guess i got the impression that you're around people, so it's best you trust them and respect them and believe in them and they in turn if you expect anything to come of it because it can be life or death...

i was the only one to grow up around that, though.. everyone else in my family has not.

they've all had their steady lives and have known the same people for years whereas i've barely known anyone longer than a year and the longest friendship i've had, had to be held over the telephone and internet and we're no longer friends so even as the lessons of that settled in, i do have a very challenging time trusting people just the same because even the friend that i've known for the longest, really left me hanging in a serious time of need where i reached out to them like i have never done before.

i no longer reach out to family.. i don't comprehend where values and morals have gone but i slap myself stupid for being so trusting before remembering that if these people saw me grow up to some extent, and i can't trust the, then there's no one that i can trust other than myself and that leads to introspection on a nuclear level that can really take me to the depths and then some!

i can better relate to people and be ok accepting them for who they are so long as i'm not emotionally or personally invested..

i love my online astrology friends, actually..

i think very highly of all of em!

if we were in person, i don't know if it'd be the case because differences are soooo vast!

i respect the differences which is why i try to be as upfront, honest and direct as i can be from the get-go within reason and comfort zones.. one wrong move and that vastness of differences can become the grand canyon pit for some people.. seriously, when it's life or death as i grew up seeing, there's no time for that kind of behaviour..

it's not honorable, it's not anything worth even respect.. talking behind one's back or anything that betrays trust is not something that i will tolerate or allow.

family has been known to be proud and very outspoken.. i picked up bits from them but have grown up so far removed that my own reality is isolating on it's own!

my eighth house is ruled by jupiter which falls in my first house.. jupiter trines my mercury and trines my midheaven and makes a sextile to my mars.

i have some squares to my mercury and one from neptune; that aspect has been defined as one to create illusions but i've learned that never is that ok.. i've been the scapegoat for some people and have had to cover them and i cannot stand it! it's resulted in me going in roundabout ways to get the truth out, someway, somehow!

i actually abhor lying!

i grew up around someone who told many, many, many lies while i was young that affected so much of the things that occurred then that i do not feel ok or at ease in company of those who do.

if you hear them lying to someone, they can just as easily lie to you and u never know when it is that they'll decide to do so and if it'll be to the benefit of you!

what i have is a tendency to escape and it's through music. i used to grow up listening to radio playing in the house; it rubbed off on me and it's the only thing that i find soothing and probably the only thing that i can say i've been introduced to since i was very young that has influenced me in some way that i have responded to; detached from everything else.

i can easily just forget about anything or feel ok as soon as i turn a song on or watch a video for someone's music.

the stage is the only place that i can find any merit to illusion or fancy flights because most everyone knows what it is. it's sacred space, kind of.. everything else?

i have pluto in scorpio; it opposes my ascendant and it is right along the cusp but in my sixth... saturn and uranus are in my eighth... there really is no time to f*ck around and i do not and never want to even begin to understand those who do.