posted March 20, 2012 07:24 PM            

So I was just pondering the 12th house and its relation to prisons, mental institutions, and other kinds of institutional settings. It perplexes me that these types of settings would be ruled BY the 12th house, and not by the 6th house, mainly because the 12th, being ruled by Pisces and Neptune seems as though it would rule the wards of these institutions, but not the institutions themselves.

Pisces/Neptune/12th House issues are usually boundary and dependency issues where boundaries are lacking and structures are diffuse. Prisons and mental institutions are often set up as artificial 'boundaries' so to speak for people who usually don't have a good sense of their own boundaries or the boundaries of others. I've always reminded my water signed friends that water signs are usually about diffusing boundaries and not setting them up (that's what earth signs do). So it is interesting to me that prisons and mental institutions are traditionally ruled by the 12th house; though, like I said before, I could see the wards of these places being ruled by the 12th house.

12th house to me is more like diffusing into the collective, whereas the purpose of prisons and mental institutions and other institutional settings is to help their wards 'conform' better to society and societal expectations of their behavior. They are also places of supposed rehabilitation and healing (for some), which still seems more 6th than 12th house to me.

posted March 20, 2012 08:13 PM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
sun ,saturn,and north node in the twelfth here, i spent some time in juvenile when i was 16 for a crime i didnt commit, long story,but the twelfth is perfect setting for prisons or jails, the twelfth is all about dissolving egos,in the jail setting you become a number,you are not a person,a number, you lose your identity,you are not allowed to do as you please,you are locked away in a room,its the lonliest and scariest feeling in the world to have no power over your day to day life,on a positive note it allows lots of quiet time for reflection,but as a whole i think prisons and jails do more harm then good,but thats another topic entirely.

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I have Saturn retrograde in the 12th...I must have been sent to the loony bin in a past life.

posted March 20, 2012 08:30 PM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
sun ,saturn,and north node in the twelfth here, i spent some time in juvenile when i was 16 for a crime i didnt commit, long story,but the twelfth is perfect setting for prisons or jails, the twelfth is all about dissolving egos,in the jail setting you become a number,you are not a person,a number, you lose your identity,you are not allowed to do as you please,you are locked away in a room,its the lonliest and scariest feeling in the world to have no power over your day to day life,on a positive note it allows lots of quiet time for reflection,but as a whole i think prisons and jails do more harm then good,but thats another topic entirely.

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posted March 20, 2012 08:41 PM            

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Originally posted by Capriquarius:
The 6th House is below the horizon, so is an area of life at the individual level. Transpersonal social structures/institutions are 7th House onwards.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[b]sun ,saturn,and north node in the twelfth here, i spent some time in juvenile when i was 16 for a crime i didnt commit, long story,but the twelfth is perfect setting for prisons or jails, the twelfth is all about dissolving egos,in the jail setting you become a number,you are not a person,a number, you lose your identity,you are not allowed to do as you please,you are locked away in a room,its the lonliest and scariest feeling in the world to have no power over your day to day life,on a positive note it allows lots of quiet time for reflection,but as a whole i think prisons and jails do more harm then good,but thats another topic entirely.

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I have Saturn retrograde in the 12th...I must have been sent to the loony bin in a past life.

According to the Gauquelin studies, Saturn in the 12th popped up frequently in the charts of scientists: those who create structure within what we don't know. Is your Saturn direct? (EDIT: Yep, it was in Jan-Feb of '91) Maybe you have a better-than-average knack at being a scientist, eh. Hopefully not a mad scientist who gets put away in a loony bin like I probably was lols[/B][/QUOTE]

posted March 21, 2012 12:30 PM            

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Originally posted by Capriquarius:
The 6th House is below the horizon, so is an area of life at the individual level. Transpersonal social structures/institutions are 7th House onwards.

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[b]sun ,saturn,and north node in the twelfth here, i spent some time in juvenile when i was 16 for a crime i didnt commit, long story,but the twelfth is perfect setting for prisons or jails, the twelfth is all about dissolving egos,in the jail setting you become a number,you are not a person,a number, you lose your identity,you are not allowed to do as you please,you are locked away in a room,its the lonliest and scariest feeling in the world to have no power over your day to day life,on a positive note it allows lots of quiet time for reflection,but as a whole i think prisons and jails do more harm then good,but thats another topic entirely.

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There are these astrologers, students of Donald H. Yott, who put together a set of his books called "Astrology and Reincarnation," and according to the first volume, retrograde planets reflect what went wrong in past lives and the reason you had to reincarnate.

I have Saturn retrograde in the 12th...I must have been sent to the loony bin in a past life.

According to the Gauquelin studies, Saturn in the 12th popped up frequently in the charts of scientists: those who create structure within what we don't know. Is your Saturn direct? (EDIT: Yep, it was in Jan-Feb of '91) Maybe you have a better-than-average knack at being a scientist, eh. Hopefully not a mad scientist who gets put away in a loony bin like I probably was lols

perhaps, i dont know,the twelfth is parts of ourselves we may not see,i still havent figured myself out completely [/B]

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I have cappi ruling my 12th and below is from Saturn thread in Basic forum…

saturn in or ruling 12th house can show a father either absent, missing or simply effectual in setting boundaries structures and alike in early childhood. psychological or physical absence of a father (or authority figure) who worked, or who provided a model for you in terms of discipline, organisation, and coping with the realities of everyday living, you were not encouraged to develop your ambition or your competitive spirit, or to believe in your potential for success. This can add listlessness and not finding ones direction
Serve or suffer are the keynotes here and the individual can choose which way he will take: but choose he must. Always a subconscious wish to retreat.
Craving for solitude. Great sensitivity. A deep seated selfishness has to be dissolved through suffering. These people need a sense of inner purpose and make good behind the scenes organisers. They often suffer from an inexplicable fear of authority or concern about the future, and should find a way to develop self confidence.
Capable of bringing stability into other people’s lives, by helping and organising those less fortunate than yourself.
Don’t like to acknowledge figures of authority (including parental)
Saturn can indicate deep seated loneliness, fear or guilt, despair or negativity which may be difficult to confront. But it also shows the ability to apply yourself with determination and/or ¬concen¬tration to some SOLITARY TASK perhaps to your work, which helps you to bring order to the internal chaos.
the often hidden weakness that having saturn here can suggest with Saturn or Capricorn here, you hesitate to openly express and come to terms with your negative feelings, particularly fear, guilt, loneliness, and mistrust. Because you haven't dealt with the fear and self doubt, which inhibit you, you may deny your desire for professional accomplishment. This Saturnian influence can manifest as psychological rigidity and withholding, due to inability to let go of past patterns. You above all, need to come to terms with your repression.
Saturn's strength and positive side here provides inner strength and self discipline, a capacity to cope with loneliness and handle responsibility, and a ¬willingness to work on your own with determination and ¬perseverance.
This house is where you learn to 'become whole' you could reject or deny someone you love.
for further clues as to how the 12th operates. look to where the ruler is and how it's aspected... http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/houserulerships.htm

posted March 21, 2012 12:38 PM            

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Originally posted by enchantress299:
Hi Everyone...

So I was just pondering the 12th house and its relation to prisons, mental institutions, and other kinds of institutional settings. It perplexes me that these types of settings would be ruled BY the 12th house, and not by the 6th house, mainly because the 12th, being ruled by Pisces and Neptune seems as though it would rule the wards of these institutions, but not the institutions themselves.

So... My question is, why are these institutions ruled by the 12th? To be truthful, I could see religious institutions or spiritual groups being aligned more closely with the 12th than institutional settings.

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From my thread in ‘house meanings’

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Twelfth House
Here in the twelfth house we find areas of life that tend to place one away from the rest of society. Hence, this house is most commonly known as the house of large public institutions, hospitals, prisons and asylums. Monasteries naturally fall into this category, as well. Sometimes this isolation is self imposed. A writer who needs long periods of uninterrupted time is an example of self imposed isolation. A hospital stay is not usually a self imposed situation.
You will often see the phrases behind-the-scenes or hidden from view used in connection with twelfth house matters. This covers a fairly large area of potential experiences. That which is purposefully deceptive as well as, actions taken for the sake of simply doing rather than for glory or recognition. The latter leading naturally to altruistic acts of helpfulness and kindness, in which the act itself is the sole reward. Hidden enemies are in the twelfth house as opposed to the open opposition in the seventh house.
Any planets in this house may represent something that the individual either doesn't have a clear view of or doesn't want a clear view of. The edges of reality become blurred, allowing one to exist in the more ideal scenario that one creates on the mental plane. Or, in other cases, the use of addictive substances or self indulgent habits that allow a person to escape unpleasant realities for the time being, though never eliminating the source of pain is another possible manifestation of this reality avoidance syndrome.
Traditionally this is the house of suffering and self undoing. You’ve probably seen this already. What exactly does it mean? It means this. How do you tangle up your own web? Look at planets in this house and the sign on the twelfth house cusp. Do you avoid reality? Do you lack boundaries with respect to these things? And what about the suffering part? Do the answers to any of the former create problems for you? Does guilt, repression, or self-doubt play a role?
This is also the house of spiritual inspiration, cosmic consciousness and enlightenment. Addicts who join support groups are often strongly encouraged to put their faith in a higher power. Even those who doubt the existence of God, can find comfort in tuning into the notion of a higher power. The spirituality found in the twelfth house is more in tune with what some might call "Universal Consciousness." Religious dogma is dissolved along with the boundaries that separate us from other dimensions. Psychic channeling and miraculous healing are higher potentials found in the twelfth house.
The twelfth house corresponds to Pisces and so any planets in this house function with some underlying Pisces style. Additionally, the twelfth house represents the influence of past lives, forgiveness, atonement and mysterious disappearances. http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/houses.htm

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The Twelfth House
The twelfth house is the meditation room (although it’s been called far worse than that). The twelfth house is opposite the sixth house, which contains the things that we have to do in order to maintain a physical body. Well, the twelfth house contains the things that we have to do in order to maintain a soul and spiritual essence. The twelfth house is associated with prisons—and from the point of view of our eternal souls, being housed in a physical body is very much like being in a prison. We go to the twelfth house when we need time alone, when we need to take a break from the demands and stresses of daily life. The thing about the twelfth house, though, is that it is above the horizon, and that means that even though we think that it’s nice, hidden and private, it’s completely visible to everyone else in the world. We are always the last to know about what’s in our twelfth house (which is one of the reasons that the twelfth house is also associated with hidden enemies). Think of the twelfth house as our shadows: we can’t always see them ourselves, but everyone else can. The twelfth house relates to the unseen, the psychic and the spiritual. We are not always consciously aware of the influences in our twelfth house; they tend to operate behind the scenes. http://therealastrology.com/home/faq/houses-defined.html

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posted March 21, 2012 01:02 PM            

So I guess what you've all shared does somewhat answer my question. It sounds like: even though prisons and mental institutions are set up as physical boundaries, what happens is that the people within them end up losing a sense of themselves (or what they consider to be part of themselves) within those settings. Still, the intentions of the institutions themselves are not always for that, I don't think. But we all know that intentions and reality don't always match up (that would be Neptunian).

However, I would say that prisons and mental institutions do differ on some levels. I actually worked in a mental institution for awhile, but I worked the day shift with kids in the school that was on site. I only worked there for a very brief period, but it was long enough to get a sense of how things worked.

I have Saturn in the 12th sextile my MC, and the ruler of my 12th is in the 11th (groups). Also, at the time of my getting hired there, tSaturn was conjuncting my Sun/MC/Venus and sextiling my natal Saturn/12th house cusp.

From my perspective, working there was like working in controlled chaos. You never really knew when a punch was going to be thrown in your direction, but you had to always be ready for it. Ultimately, I think the intentions for rehabilitation were there, but there was also a frustrating sense of knowing that some of these kids were beyond traditional means of rehabilitation and would likely be stuck within the system for a very long time, if not for the rest of their lives.

I have a friend who is a sheriff's deputy, and he worked within the PRISON system, which, like I said, is a somewhat different system because mental institutions are still more likely to TRY to be rehabilitative instead of just a containment area. The stories that he told me were not pretty and you could see the workers getting just as jaded as the prisoners (to be honest).

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you lose your identity,you are not allowed to do as you please,you are locked away in a room,its the lonliest and scariest feeling in the world to have no power over your day to day life,on a positive note it allows lots of quiet time for reflection,but as a whole i think prisons and jails do more harm then good,but thats another topic entirely.

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I'm sorry you got put into jail for a crime that you didn't commit! That would have to be horrendous.

And I think that your experience of prison is the way that it is for MOST people, but there are also people who seem to want to go back to that setting and they are the ones who are most likely to re-offend or break probation to get thrown back in jail. It kind of makes me wonder what kind of mentality is behind that behavior. I know the psychology on it, but... I don't know. I'd like a more full grasp of it I guess.

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The 6th House is below the horizon, so is an area of life at the individual level. Transpersonal social structures/institutions are 7th House onwards.

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posted March 21, 2012 04:07 PM            

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Sorry this is a bit out of topic, but would Saturn in Pisces manifest in a similar way to Saturn in the 12th?

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posted March 22, 2012 09:52 AM            

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Sorry this is a bit out of topic, but would Saturn in Pisces manifest in a similar way to Saturn in the 12th?

Edit: nevermind, posted my question in the appropriate thread.

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