posted May 16, 2013 08:13 PM            

@meyray: The performance groups I've been part of have always been TEMPORARY (from auditions/casting through closing night), generally 3-5 months. The info about 11th house being temporary has been quite helpful. It sounds like I need to think about the qualities of Uranus in order to better understand the house.

posted May 18, 2013 05:01 PM            

The most important thing would be to join and participate more in group activities. Spend time with friends and work on keeping those relationships. Hobbies in the form of a group rather than for yourself [5th house]. Get to know many different kinds of people and listen to their stories (I bet you'd be really good at that with your Aqua sun!). Find more like-minded people who share your views, even if they're quirky.

Aquarius/11th does rule the internet, right? Then you're well on your way with Lindaland. Using technology to keep up with people. Uhm... Science fiction? Electronical music? Hitting the gym? Wow, you even have the normal ruler in its own house. Uranus there definitely emphasises embracing your Aqua traits. Maybe standing up for a group, especially because of a cause or political stance that means a lot to you?

With Pluto... uhm. Maybe using your insight in those same groups to really get to know what they want? Or your goal in life may help you come to terms with your own issues. Those groups give you a new view on your life. Let them be your own little fanbase. (The love received theory, right?)

This was mostly for the houses.

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
I also think of group homes and group therapy as 11th house matters.

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posted May 18, 2013 05:38 PM            

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Wow, that never would've occurred to me, but yes. Always thought it was the 12th. This does fit with the group activity. I guess the difference is that the 12th house institutions are locked away?

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Twelfth, to me, is more about being isolated in your own world. Institutions of all kinds, belong to 11 because they contain groups of people. It mystifies me why people like to assign them to house 12. Is there really a connection?

Everything that we cannot detect belongs to 12, too, and places like the deepest parts of the ocean, and the entire ocean to ancient Mariners, since they had no way of seeing any of it and feared it, and deep space which astronomers can only guess about now, but, maybe, one day. It is also the particles so tiny they cannot ever be seen, not even with a microscope, yet, they exist, undetected and unacknowledged. 12 house lets us know we are limited very much by our senses and introduces us to other worlds we cannot detect but can only dream about.

It can be what you do not comprehend in your own psyche. That's why it's so important for 12 house planets to undergo rigorous analysis on daily basis since they are not aware of how they manifest in someone's life. People think the 12th house can indicate imprisonment but it's more about what one doesn't know about themselves that lands them in jail, the dark impulses and the tendencies the psyche refuses to own. Again, it's about awareness and analysis. If only everyone could get in touch with their 12th house, they might feel in more control of their lives.

So, the prison itself belongs to 11, imo, the unknown element that drives the dark impulses to 12. People often scratch their heads and think why did he do that and the criminal can often not explain it or denies it entirely. Every once in a while you see one on television that will own the subconscious power in their 12th, bringing it to the surface and it looks like boasting to the populous (this is part of 12th house reputation for self undoing) it just makes people more angry and makes them hate the criminal even more intensely.

It's the house of the hidden, the recluse, the hermit. That's why Saturn is said to be well placed here. Saturnine principles work with this kind of lifestyle, supposedly.

11th house is where you find people of all kinds, together but separated into their cliques, forming a society and culture, civilization.

Perhaps solitary confinement is a 12th house matter, since this does occur in prison. Doesn't seem like prison itself is. Neither are institutions. The only way they can be is if there are things going inside no one knows about, but it's the actual secrets that belong to house 12, not the prison itself. People can be frightened by house 12 in particular because they have a natural fear of the unknown. It's similar with house 8, because it deals with death and both houses are traditionally viewed as evil while house 11 is associated with good things even though prison is not seen as good to the criminal, society, on the other hand, sees them as beneficial because it's a place to put a group of people who has done something offensive to the others. It's another way of sorting by a common trait a group of people share. 11th house.

So, this is the difference between house 12 and ll. They seem vaguely connected but all the houses are, I guess. I have an 11th house sun, 12th house stellium/south node. My mom has an 11th house sun, planets in 12 as well but we are not in prison or an institution lol. I guess prison can happen to people with the same configuration. Not sure exactly why it happens to some, not to others.

posted May 18, 2013 06:14 PM            

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
Twelfth, to me, is more about being isolated in your own world. Institutions of all kinds, belong to 11 because they contain groups of people. It mystifies me why people like to assign them to house 12. Is there really a connection?

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Your whole post is very though-provoking and perhaps our understanding of which institutions belong in each house needs to be re-examined. The 12th originally included prisons and hospitals because historically, those WERE mysterious places; usually when someone went to prison or into a hospital, you'd never see that individual again. They just disappeared! Obviously, a lot has changed since the early days of astrology when these institutions were considered to be 12th house matters.

The question then becomes, do we go with the more traditional assignments, or do we take into consideration that we now live in a much more transparent culture? Perhaps voluntary vs. involuntary should also be considered. If someone were committed to an institution against their will, that might still be a 12th house matter since it could still be considered "self-undoing", but if someone CHOOSES to go in for treatment of a condition, that would be something else again. What do other LL people think about these things? A discussion of the different views could help us all to gain more insight into these two houses.

posted May 18, 2013 07:41 PM            

The question becomes, does house 12 cover groups of people in this situation or are these groups more the jurisdiction of 11 just because several are congregated in one place?

Sometimes, it's noted a criminal has no planets in 12, what about 11? If there aren't any in 12, could you look at 11 next and if there is a planet or two there, what is their significance in the fact this person is in prison? Any at all?

posted May 18, 2013 08:24 PM            

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
The reason people like to put institutions and prisons into 12 is because of this concept people are removed from society and separated so they can't interact with other members of that society, so it must be 12, because, anytime there is isolation, 12 is involved. Also, it a matter of their personal freedom being limited but all groups tend to limit freedom of individuals. There's socialism which values conformity and greater society over each person and this political system is said to value compromise and strict regulation over individual rights. So you could say this system limits freedom. People like to think of socialism is Neptunian, but could it really be part of house 11? What about communist revolutions? Just what goes in which house? Lines get blurred, sometimes.

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Yes, lines do get blurred. And the more people, the blurrier they can get! What about a totalitarian regime? Or a concentration camp? Does how much info comes out later effect which house it would be in?

What about a breakthrough in science that would allow us to "unlock" the mystery of the unconscious/sub-conscious mind? Would that them be removed from the 12th house and put in the 3rd (lower thinking) or 9th (higher thinking)?

posted May 19, 2013 11:24 AM            

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
I thought I might be going off topic, Jkitty so I hesitated about including so much on house 12 but it's only in an effort to figure out exactly where group homes, institutions and prisons belong so the two houses are sorta connected in a sense that when you find planets in one, there might be some in the other and it might indicate a certain situation with a group home, institution or prison, both these houses together, maybe? It's interesting enough to mention. Sorry if it is a bit off topic.

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No problem by me; sometimes we need to discuss related things in order to gain a better understanding. There ARE some overlaps between the houses and understanding when to assign a matter to a house probably requires more knowledge than I currently have about the traditional reasoning.

posted May 19, 2013 06:49 PM            

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Originally posted by meissieri:
Nah, don't mind the hijacking. If it makes such interesting discussions, then please go ahead. I'm reading along and enjoying it. The line between that and the 12th is definitely blurry. What do you think about social services or charity? Feels like another one that could be in either...

It's an important house for me to grasp with my Sun and Mars in there.

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SS and charity are humanitarian in slant so I would include them in the 11th. Isn't it interesting that even a house (12th) ruled by Neptune would have "blurry", difficult to define borders?! And since technology falls in the 11th and is always changing, it makes sense that 11th house matters would be "unstable" like Uranus!!