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Author
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Topic: Lizzie Borden
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StarlightSmileSupreme
Knowflake Posts: 9029
From: neptune
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted January 25, 2014 05:18 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by summerlite:
I don't know the full story but I don't think she was abused at home. She probably had problems with seeing eye to eye with male figures (sun opp mars). She was also suppressed in a way from getting the woman she loved. And if u read, the stepmother got more blows than the father. She probably hated the stepmother more.
Her father was a jerk but lots of men were back then. It was expected. This was before the women's movement.
The bottom line was, a frustrated, older girl still lived at home. It was stifling and most likely not fun. She had to deal with it and being a Cancer sun, she probably took things very personally and reacted emotionally. IP: Logged |
page one
Knowflake Posts: 393
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2012
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posted January 25, 2014 05:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Violets:
According to The Dead Files episode I watched, the Mars in 4th opposite Sun/Venus is fitting, as well as the repression part.If one goes by that particular medium's abilities, there was a lot of very creepy abuse from the father in that household, and it was definitely not talked about.
I just watched that episode. "Going by one medium's abilities" is all that can be said, really. It couldn't have been about inter-family tension or money, the usual description of the dynamics in that house, it has to be the topic du jour of incest. Father and daughter AND sister and sister. That "medium" is either disturbed or a grifter. I see no uncanny abilities here, only a con artist who knows what's expected of her. As for the B&B, I wonder if having the owner/employees doing a paranormal show that talks about "disturbances" would be good or bad for business? Better yet, if it's so bad and they're so scared maybe they should close their doors. They didn't, of course. As for the Mars in 4th house, that doesn't have to be sex abuse. It can just be the tension in that house, which was severe. The two sisters hated their stepmother. I don't think they mentioned the layout of the upper floor, which lacked a common hallway. If you wanted to move from one room to another, you had to pass through the different rooms to do so: Zero privacy. That would be trying enough in a close-knit family, but in that one? SSS, where do you get the idea that "her mother" sided with Lizzie? She was her father's favorite. Her mother had died when she was a child. Like I said, Abigail was her stepmother, and their relationship was not good.
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StarlightSmileSupreme
Knowflake Posts: 9029
From: neptune
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted January 25, 2014 05:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by page one:
SSS, where do you get the idea that "her mother" sided with Lizzie? She was her father's favorite. Her mother had died when she was a child. Like I said, Abigail was her stepmother, and their relationship was not good.
Like I said, I don't convict without evidence and there have been plenty of times someone looks guilty as sin and they were later acquitted, mostly because of DNA, so all I can say is I don't know.
What I do know is most women had a crappy existence back then. They were under the thumb of men and had very little rights, even in the US. There were exceptions. Most women were second to men back then so they had that reality to deal with.
There wasn't family therapy or anything like that to smooth the transition when the stepmother moved in. Father married who he wanted and if you didn't like it, too bad. That's how things were. There wasn't much you could do. A lot of women left home because of situations like these.
I am just trying to sort out possible motives that set her off at that point. If she were indeed abused, she would have had many moments of wanting to kill her father in the past yet she never acted until the day she did it, if indeed she is guilty.
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Lioness
Knowflake Posts: 6709
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted January 26, 2014 02:16 AM
I watched the movie... It basically started a day before the crime..
It seemed like she wanted freedom, and be able to do her own thing.. Her father was very strict and forbid her from doing what she wanted...
I don't want to spoil the movie.. I'll be back tomorrow..
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StarlightSmileSupreme
Knowflake Posts: 9029
From: neptune
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted January 26, 2014 02:25 AM
I saw the movie too.
After watching it, I wondered if, perhaps, a man was involved? I bet those jurors wondered the same thing. The crime seems so masculine to me.
Maybe Lizzie Borden was in cahoots with some unknown man and he actually killed them? She could have had him hidden in the house? The maid never mentions him but she could have been paid off.
Her sister did take off, never contacting Lizzie again. IP: Logged |
Venusian Moon
unregistered
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posted January 26, 2014 03:26 AM
The moment i saw her chart and saw Pluto in the 8th. I was like oh crap.
PLUTO IN THE 8TH HOUSE
Those with Pluto in the 8th house possess the power to drastically change the lives of others. Pluto is placed in a very powerful and dominant position, but when its natural energies are obstructed it can lead to a build-up of repressed desires, which burst through consciousness, and all hell breaks loose. Many astrologers believe that when Pluto is placed in the 8th house of the horoscope the individual will experience at least one major life change. Pluto can plunge the native into the intensity of the underworld through a connection with profound issues such as sex, death, power and survival. With all planets in the 8th house the individual needs to seek empowerment, which refers to the acquisition of power rather than wielding it over others. Additionally, ignoring such powerful intense desires will leave the soul feeling powerless, frightened and overwhelmed. Partnerships may involve power-struggles, physical or emotional violence or the breaking of taboos. Some have a propensity for troubled relationships, and it involves long-drawn out conflict over inheritance, sex, business deals and divorce settlements. Relationships can be damaged as a result, and we can recognize this pattern in many couples with silent stand-offs, withdrawal, ambivalence, distrust, anger, blame and an emotional tug of war. When a relationship has a power-struggle brewing underneath, and the two people begin to test the waters (8th), each partner sheds their inhibitions and lets their real self-emerge. Pluto in the 8th house describes this exchange of intensity and pronounces the desire to transform relationships, and so intense engagement doesn’t have to threaten a relationship, it can help it grow, develop and heal. The problems arising in the present are often fuelled by the unconscious, and the 8th house represents our psychic inheritance. The family demons may include: death, abuse, emotional manipulation, nasty parental divorce, violence, suicide or mental illness. According to Jungian astrology many 8th house people are born to be the “curse breaker” of the family. Indeed, if the individual can wield such power, they can also bring profound healing. They have a talent for transforming, and their strong will power often equates with an all or nothing attitude. Pluto in the 8th house can have a compulsive fascination with death and some have an unconscious death wish. Eighth house people are intensely probing and are often interested in dark subjects like the occult, psychology and unsolved mysteries. Inner growth may be a lifelong interest. Pluto here may also have strong psychic powers, and this placement gives the individual added insights. Pluto here also indicates research ability and the person is willing to dig deep and they may also possess a secretive nature. Issues of life and death may consume them, and the individual may be able to assist those who are emotionally or mentally disturbed. http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.com/2011/01/pluto-in-8th-house.html?m=1 IP: Logged |
Venusian Moon
unregistered
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posted January 26, 2014 03:28 AM
The cast of the show called ghost adventures went to the house and did an investigation. They think her father molested her.IP: Logged |
Nine
Moderator Posts: 2043
From: The Cusp of Love
Registered: May 2009
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posted January 26, 2014 06:04 AM
Hate to stereotype anyone, but these are the crimes Cancers are famous for - brutally killing close relations, by hand. Often the victim's crime is rejecting the crab.IP: Logged |
summerlite
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted January 26, 2014 08:51 AM
For asteroids,
She has Priapus at 28 Leo.
Based on what i've read, if you can't express yourself as Black Moon Lilith (which is near her DSC), it will come unrestrained at the Priapus point. It hits her stellium.
She has Sedna near DSC (29 Pis). Sedna in asteroid is about a girl betrayed repeatedly by men and her father. But really, her sad end was really because she refuses to let go. (victimization)
Her moon conjunct Ophelia, which means losing yourself to the point of insanity. i think it's pretty telling what happened "Ophelia has limited options as a woman in a patriarchal society and this is what separates her from Hamlet, who has the freedom to change his own fate. Ophelia needs to be obedient and is not allowed to express herself and her true feelings. What happens in her life is determined by the whims of the men who control her. She is obedient to her father and brother and also to the king, and although she tries to do what is right, she is often pulled along by these men. Unlike Hamlet, who can act according to his own will and speak his mind as he wants, Ophelia must find an alternative to express herself. The only out that she sees is in madness and eventually death. As a mad woman, Ophelia would not be bound by the societal restrictions of women; she could voice herself; however, even in madness she is not free. Even though she is able to have a voice, she still has no freedom of choice and she is ultimately regarded as nonsensical and her words are taken to be simply mad-talk. Whereas Hamlet has the power and potential to change his fate, Ophelia does not and her death is tragic because the only escape she sees from her oppression is madness and death. Thus, her limited options in a patriarchal society and her realization of those limitations are what make Ophelia's death the true tragedy of Hamlet." IP: Logged |
StarlightSmileSupreme
Knowflake Posts: 9029
From: neptune
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted January 26, 2014 12:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nine:
Hate to stereotype anyone, but these are the crimes Cancers are famous for - brutally killing close relations, by hand. Often the victim's crime is rejecting the crab.
The movie portrayed her as a wannabe socialite and her chart backs that up. She may have wanted to throw parties and have attention for being the host. Somebody with that many planets in Leo really needs attention and control of their lives to be happy. They will never be satisfied being ruled by another. I know from my experience with Leos they like having a good time and being surrounded by happy people so her parent's dour attitudes would have most likely stressed her out.
Cancers are status oriented so she would liked to have been regarded as a well dressed socialite who threw parties important people attended and her parents did not support this.IP: Logged |
Nine
Moderator Posts: 2043
From: The Cusp of Love
Registered: May 2009
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posted January 26, 2014 07:10 PM
^^ But isn't it Leo nature to do what it wants anyway.IP: Logged |
IMoppedtheFloor
unregistered
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posted January 26, 2014 08:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nine:
^^ But isn't it Leo nature to do what it wants anyway.
No that would be Uranus/Aquarius LOL. IP: Logged |
StarlightSmileSupreme
Knowflake Posts: 9029
From: neptune
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted January 26, 2014 08:39 PM
Leo is more the Belle Of The Ball type and this seems to ring true for Lizzie Borden. They want to be free to socialize and hold their soirees. Queens holding court. Jupiter in Leo could resent any sort of restriction, here. IP: Logged |
fauxcoat
Knowflake Posts: 547
From:
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted January 26, 2014 08:56 PM
I have read that Saturn in Leo makes one feel unloved. I have Saturn in Leo and I have issues with being the center of attention and assertiveness. I don't feel worthy much of the time. Her Saturn was in the 11th house - house of friendships/groups so issues with feeling part of a group. Her Mars was in Capricorn in 4th house and it was a high degree Mars. She was calculating with her anger and had issues with family/home life. Pluto in 8th = control issues I have read, however I have this placement and I don't feel I am controlling, however I have a lot of Libra, not Leo. True North Node in Aquarius in 5th house (house of fun/pleasure) - she probably sought social justice if these issues were threatened. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 4668
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted January 26, 2014 10:50 PM
I don't know why but I have always felt her dad was abusing her.....when he quit, maybe mom found out or for some reason he stopped and she lost the I only attention he'd ever given her.
She was angry and wanted it back, maybe? Maybe she blamed the mom and/or was jealous of her step mom, she thought the step mom was the reason her dad no longer gave her that same attention, maybe she was!
I can't remember if I read that theory or not but I've always felt this way about her story!Seeing her chart makes me believe that even more, seeing her cancer Nessus, abuse in your home by those who are supposed to love you opposed Mars(potentially sexual abuse)...conjunct Sun and Venus, this is opposed Cap Mars rx in 4th and inconjunct Chiron in 5th....the abuse would get mixed up with her identity and ego and what she thought of as love, this opposing mars her drive/anger/fight for what she believed she deserved or get revenge...then it touches her deepest wound, aqua Chiron in 5th....I bet her a ability to disconnect emotionally would make it easy to kill under those circumstances and the fact that Chiron is in 5th...it was something she could emotionally detach from and actually find some enjoyment in retaliation for what had been taken from her! I also have cancer Nessus in my 10th conjunct mars(3.5 degrees)...I was sexually abused by the male family members in my home!
My Nessus is Inconjunct my Mercury and Sun(both under 2 degrees)
It took me a long time to realize my only value wasn't being and allowing people to hurt me, physically or sexually!
This is an aspect that really warps your value in who you are and when you are forced or start to wake up from it and feel you've lost the only value you had, your anger is huge and the rage is blinding!
You feel so lost....and stupid! It's like they completely decieved you and then sat there and laughed at you as you finally started to realize what they did...it's very humilitaing...that's where the rage comes in!
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hodad
Knowflake Posts: 260
From: tiburon ca usa
Registered: May 2009
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posted January 31, 2014 09:20 AM
Moon-Pluto usually has deep-seated mother issues.All is not as it seems and there are some ugly feelings and lots of intense conflict in the relationship with the mother,especially with Pluto in the 8th house.Some dark secrets maybe--IP: Logged |
summerlite
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted January 31, 2014 09:40 AM
8th house can mean inheritance. There was displeasure over how her father divided property. I suppose her stepmother got greedy and took the sisters' share.Nessus doesn't necessarily mean abuse in physical form. It can be mental. It can be due to restriction. Chiron in 5th house could mean she was barred from self-expression. Or pursuing her dream career as an actress.
IP: Logged |
page one
Knowflake Posts: 393
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2012
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posted January 31, 2014 10:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by summerlite:
8th house can mean inheritance. There was displeasure over how her father divided property. I suppose her stepmother got greedy and took the sisters' share.Nessus doesn't necessarily mean abuse in physical form. It can be mental. It can be due to restriction. Chiron in 5th house could mean she was barred from self-expression. Or pursuing her dream career as an actress.
"Dream career as an actress"? Where do you get this stuff? There was no will. There was only talk of who would have received the bulk of the inheritance when he died. Ditto on "the dark secrets" regarding her mother, based on a Moon/Pluto square. Her mother died when she was a baby, another possible reading for Moon square Pluto. A third would be that no one will ever know what really happened in that house, which makes it easy for people to come up with all these amazing alternative histories, which these days include incest. Why not? Incest is really the thing now. Everyone's interested in incest. Lizzie was molested, of course! Because boring, mundane family dysfunction just doesn't push anyone's buttons anymore. IP: Logged |
summerlite
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted January 31, 2014 10:43 AM
ok maybe not acting.I think it's definitely over inheritance. It doesn't have to be a will. It could be just the mere discussion of it in the house. Things like "oh you are not getting the house because your step mother wants it." can make someone angry. Also on the wiki page, there was a paragraph on food poisoning days before the murder. Maybe it was just an accident. But because both of them hated each other, both of them could have suspected that they wanted each other dead. It's usually this kind of thoughts that drive people crazy. IP: Logged |
StarlightSmileSupreme
Knowflake Posts: 9029
From: neptune
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted January 31, 2014 01:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by summerlite:
ok maybe not acting.I think it's definitely over inheritance. It doesn't have to be a will. It could be just the mere discussion of it in the house. Things like "oh you are not getting the house because your step mother wants it." can make someone angry. Also on the wiki page, there was a paragraph on food poisoning days before the murder. Maybe it was just an accident. But because both of them hated each other, both of them could have suspected that they wanted each other dead. It's usually this kind of thoughts that drive people crazy.
There's proof a maternal Uncle was in town visiting because Andrew Borden planned on giving or selling him a house the girls wanted to live in (Lizzie and her sister Emma.)
Andrew supposedly had a meeting with John Morse, the sisters' maternal Uncle the night before he was killed which I think is suspicious because there was an issue in the Borden household about the step mother's relatives receiving property instead of the girls and their maternal relatives.
The sisters lived in a separate property belonging to their father at one point but it was sold for cash and they moved back home.
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Lioness
Knowflake Posts: 6709
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted January 31, 2014 08:27 PM
The specific term of a Will was not mentioned in the movie..
However when the police were discussing the case, they mentioned, that since the father died after the wife, his money goes to his family... They stated if the step mother would have died 2nd, then the money would of gone to her family.. Which kinda implies Will, but maybe it was a law of the times. The step mother was killed around 9am, the father was killed around 11am. Making his money going to his family. IP: Logged |
whaaat
Knowflake Posts: 298
From: Portland, MA,U.S
Registered: Jun 2013
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posted October 22, 2014 04:26 AM
I'm picking up a vibe where she was struggling for freedom, wanting fame/popularity, and being put down by her father, who called her clumsy, stupid, ugly etc. I also feel like she was angry at her stepmother who got the love and approval her father denied her, so maybe her issues had a dab of Electra complex... IP: Logged |
KarkaQueen
Knowflake Posts: 6361
From: In my 1st house Uranus and Neptune
Registered: May 2011
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posted October 22, 2014 03:20 PM
ole girl looked like a pigI feel like Abuyanne and the other good readers here can go really in depth and not just use broad generalizations like "Pluto in 8th house" or "Moon sq Pluto". Read between the [astrological] lines! IP: Logged |
Lindaland
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