posted May 14, 2014 01:30 PM            

When a woman interacts with a man, on a pretty close level (not just random superficial interactions), she'll tend to mirror/play out the energies of the man's Moon and Venus placements (sign, aspects, etc.)

And it's probably the same the other way around. The men a woman interacts with will tend to play out her Sun and Mars placements (I am not completely settled on this one yet but I assume that's how it would work).

Now, you may think, "Well that's nothing new."

But it seems to me that it's not so much about the kind of partner you attract (their chart), or the kind of synastry you have with them, as it is about what's in your natal chart. (But obviously very often the people we attract actually have charts with similar energies to ours.)

Of course, it's not super static, otherwise everyone would always end up with the same kind of behavior in the other person (but it does seem to happen often). I think that's because there are differences in the expression of energies: varying degrees of negative vs. positive manifestation.

Synastry could mitigate those factors, to a degree. But the basic principle would still apply.

Say, a man has Venus opposite Uranus in his chart. Virtually every woman he'll get close to will act/appear in a Uranian manner, either positve or negative (she could be unconventional or very independent, or just very indecisive about love matters and hot/cold). She may not have a strong Uranus in her chart but she will most likely act that way anyway.

That energy is present in the man already, but it's mirrored by the woman he interacts with.

Now take Moon conjunct Neptune. The women will act, and/or appear to be very Neptunian - (overly)sensitive, naive, "pure", artistic, spiritual... escapist, liars, deceiving, etc. Even if they don't have a prominent Neptune natally.

Those same women would act differently with another man, depending on that other man's natal chart (Moon and Venus placements).

I suppose the DSC can apply to both sexes as well, but I'm not sure how important it actually is (and the DSC ruler).

posted May 14, 2014 01:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Thoughts?

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if a woman wants to hold a man, she has merely to appeal to what is worst in him.
So that's that

posted May 14, 2014 03:12 PM            

I hope that's a good thing. ^^

posted May 14, 2014 05:32 PM            

My neptune is square his sun and he has sun square neptune in natal also. I think he is idolizing me a lot (looks up to me) and sometimes he got a fake picture of me, I believe. When he tells me about some of the dreams he has about me, it seems like I'm a super girl but I'm not lol.
It goes the other way around too though…he is my hero, really.

posted May 15, 2014 02:34 AM            

After having read your post that is.

I see what you mean, have experienced it a lot.
Personally I think only people that share the same kind of challenges in their natal charts would 'forgive' each other's crappy flaws because I think even when love resides in our hearts it is sometimes not enough to 'forgive' and I won't say forget but understand the other person.

Say someone who is very Uranian interacts with someone who is not. The other person ends up freaking the Uranian person by triggering undesired responses thus mirroring the same kind of uranian energy that actually is not present in the person chart. I've noticed Uranian people get stuck in relationships that are obviously not good for them and everybody would expect them to bail out but no, amazingly they remain with the other person, and when it is indeed a good relationship they fear commitment because they feel their freedom is threatened. Often than not, the other person doesn't have a prominent uranus in their charts.

posted May 15, 2014 04:18 AM            

My girlfriend's Mars is in Cancer and I am a Cancer rising. Also her Mars conjuncts her Midheaven and most of my planets are in the 10th House, so my Midheaven is very emphasized in my chart. Also, my girlfriend's Sun conjuncts her Jupiter and I am a Pisces, with a lot of Sagittarius.

posted May 15, 2014 07:25 AM            

Although we are all unique and have distinctive personalities, it's also true that we act differently with different people. For example is someone is kind of a smart @ss, and verbally spars with people, people will naturally start being more sarcastic and challenging towards this person in response. Even those who are normally shy and quiet might become more sharp tongued around a person like that because they know such a person expects and even enjoys silly little arguments.

If we act as if we expect people to behave in a certain way around us people often respond by doing so (consciously or unconsciously).

It’s also true that some people are more susceptible to this type of influence then others. There’s wiggle room. All humans do this to some extent though… If people speak softly and calmly to us we respond in kind. If they yell, we yell back.

I think what goes on in relationships between men and women is way more subtle, however the same principle is at work. A women may act as if she expects a man to behave in the style of her Sun and Mars and so she attracts that energy from men.

The same would be true for a Man regarding his Moon and Venus positions. He is likely to treat a lady as if he expects her to be a certain way and she may pick up on this and respond in kind without even realizing.

Our Sun/Mars and Moon/Venus can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.

I also think it’s true that we attract those who naturally act out our Sun/Mars or Venus/Moon, because that’s the type of energy that we’re tuned into and look for. It’s a fate or karma thing too. If we’re born with certain placements in our chart it shows something about our destiny or lessons for this life.

So yeah, if you have a relationship with a guy who had Venus in Aries and Moon in Pisces, he would act as if he expects you to be passionate and direct towards him, but also emotionally vulnerable, sensitive, and maybe in need of rescue. You could be a Virgo with Venus in Libra but somehow his influence on you makes you behave more like an Aries/Pisces… which confirms what he always thought/felt about women anyway. Synastry will always mitigate and modify this to some extent. He’s likely to be attracted to women with a strong Mars and/or Neptune in their chart, women with Pisces and/or Aries strong in their chart… Or to women who strongly aspect his Mars and/or Neptune… Or to women who aspect him with their Mars and/or Neptune…

Maybe miss Virgo/Libra strongly aspects him with her Mars and Neptune anyway, and that’s why he was drawn to her in the first place. This is where the fate thing sort of steps in. He had those positions of Moon and Venus and just happened to meet someone who could ‘give’ him that part of her energy.

posted May 15, 2014 07:42 AM            

Hard aspects could potentially point towards negative attitudes towards the opposite sex ...Ya know, stereotypes like 'women are gold-diggers' or 'all guys cheat' (which is not true by the way). A women with Sun or Mars square Uranus might see men as unreliable. A guy with Pluto square Venus or Moon might see women as manipulative.

Oppositions indicate debate and negotiation with the opposite sex. Squares are dramatic, and point towards dynamic and challenging relationships with the opposite sex.

Soft aspects tend towards congenial relationships with the opposite sex, as well as liking them overall. A guy with Venus or Moon trine Jupiter might love women in general and find them hilarious for some reason. A women with Mars trine Mercury might appreciate the direct way that men communicate.

posted May 15, 2014 08:05 AM            

Also, Jessica I think you made a good point as well about the Uranus example. I can't elaborate on it now but I see what you meant.

Thank you all for your replies.

The way I see it, there's no actual conscious desire to mirror, please or morph into anything (although there are of course people who do that, but it's not the matter I am talking about).

That's because we are all multi-dimensional beings, we don't always act the same way depending on who we are with. We all have several traits and facets in ourselves and those traits and facets get triggered by specific people who enter our lives at a given moment, as shown by the interaction of the natal charts between both people (and progressions and transits).

Another important thing is that people who don't share any kinds of natal similarities (or by progression or transit) usually won't be attracted to each other in the first place, probably precisely because their interaction won't have enough common ground for the projection (and possible integration) to occur.

So if most people who start a relationship of some kind already have some common ground, it's not surprising that they would play out each other's energies in some way.

Actually now that I think about it, talking only about Moon/Venus for men and Sun/Mars for women (and DSC for both) was probably too restricting. I am not sure yet about every little detail. Maybe anyone can draw out any type of energy from X person, because we all have 12 signs and 12 houses in our charts, but we are only significantly attracted to those who mirror our charts; or if we take into account our progressed charts and our transits, the amount of people we can "click" with gets substantially larger than if we only take into account our natal charts. So there's room for many scenarios.

For the sake of simplicity I'll stick to the example of a Venus/Uranus opposition in a man's chart.

Unless the man is very self-aware and has done some self-work around the issues of emotional closeness and attachment, he will have a conscious or unconscious fear of closeness and intimacy that will affect his relations with women in his life. The women he'll attract will most probably have the same types of issues themselves, and they may or may not be aware of them as well ("I want to find a long-term partner, but they all bail out on me" usually hides a feeling of fear of intimacy or some other inadequacy regarding relationships and commitment). It's really two sides of the same coin.

So those two people will find each other, start relating and all their issues regarding closeness and commitment will come to the surface, forcing them to acknowledge and (hopefully) deal with them, either together or on their own after a separation.

That will make them more aware of themselves and their deepest dynamics when it comes to relating and improve the quality of their relationships in the future, if they choose to remain self-aware and work on themselves.

If the people are aware they will understand why things happened the way they did and what they need to do to change the dynamics within themselves first (ASC) and then with regard to other people (DSC), which by the way, would occur simultaneously (once you change, your relationships change - it's an axis for a reason).

quote:

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just by virtue of knowing our own selves best, each woman the guy with venus opposite uranus dates or is attracted to will be "independent/free-spirited," etc because he sees himself that way - regardless of whether the person actually *is* like that.

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Unconscious projection - like attracts like even if the external realities of both people seem very differing. Two sides of the same coin.

quote:

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if your thinking is correct, then how to explain close relationships in which the partners don't have emotional intimacy? if a woman (or man) could mirror/play out the moon or venus so easily we'd have the makings for better relationships and fewer fights between couples.

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There are plenty of things that can be problematic in a natal chart and affect an individual and therefore affect his relationships with others.

ETA: and again progressions and transits can also play a big role.

quote:

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or, perhaps, this is just done to attract a partner and not kept up over the length of a relationship...

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ETA: The length of the relationship itself is not the major concern here. It's the quality of the relationship, what it does to both people and how it helps them on their way to self-actualization. If it doesn't seem to help them in any way, you can be sure it's carrying a message that something is wrong within both individuals that they're not paying attention to.

This could only be my view, but I believe the purpose of every relationship is to help us become more whole and "better." It's a personal path of soul evolution; others are there to assist us in our growth. Some people will stick to us for a long time while others will only stay for a brief time, but they should all be valuable to us in some way.

If two individuals are integrated within themselves and own their "shadow side" (that which is usually projected onto others but is actually part of ourselves - DSC) then everything becomes clearer and easier because we don't unconsciously project our issues or uncalled-for negativity onto the other person. We can clearly see what's going on within ourselves and that makes understanding the other person easier as well (since they are a reflection of ourselves at that given moment in time).

That's why it's often stressed that natal charts can actually give you most of the information you need to know about someone's relationship dynamics, even without taking into account a synastry chart.

Just take both natals and see what each of them tells about each person, and how their stories relate to, and interact with each other. Synastry would show the emphasis of certain areas that bind people together.

Again, I am not so sure anymore about the place of male vs. female significators in a chart. Especially when taking into account homosexual people. Maybe the whole chart can actually be considered, especially oppositions since those tend to play out the most in relation to someone/others.
But I suppose for a start, looking at Moon/Venus/DSC(ruler) and Sun/Mars/DSC(ruler) would be pretty helpful.

Sorry if this is all over the place and redundant.
I think I've repeated some things several times but it's kind of difficult to put everything into a clear scheme.

posted May 15, 2014 07:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orange:
if a woman wants to hold a man, she has merely to appeal to what is worst in him.
So that's that

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Indeed.

posted May 16, 2014 07:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:

The way I see it, there's no actual conscious desire to mirror, please or morph into anything (although there are of course people who do that, but it's not the matter I am talking about).

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This is the way I see it too. Most of the time the mirroring with Moon/Venus in the man's chart, or Sun/Mars in the woman's chart is not done on purpose as some kind of manipulation or anything.

It's an instinctive thing.

We might not even be aware we're being subtly influenced by influenced by the other person's expectations unless we go through some introspection. People act differently with different people and they don't always know why. It just happens.

Yeah, we do this on many different levels. However, if we want to explore male/female relations I think studying Sun/Mars in the woman's chart and Moon/Venus in the man's chart is especially relevant.

Also, there is one more male/female pair of planets that just might be worth considering.

Uranus and Neptune...

To elaborate, I see Neptune and Uranus as a male/female pair, just like the Sun and Moon, and Mars and Venus. Uranus and Neptune expand on male/female archetypes in the sense of what we consider glamorous.

I don’t see Uranus and Neptune as partner ideal planets, so much as I see them as archetypal images of male and female present within an entire generation. They represent a iconic images of glamour, rather then the characteristics we’d look for in a partner. But they do form part of our conceptions of male and female, like the Sun and Moon, and Mars and Venus, but they’re more ‘distant’ and abstract. Uranus and Neptune seem to describe the gender ideals in the popular culture on a fantasy level… Like an unobtainable dream guy/girl who takes us out of the mundane, and exposes us to a whole different reality.

Interestingly, the 11th house (Uranus’ natural domain) also rules public awareness, and the 12th house (Neptune’s natural domain) also rules fantasy. Images of men as the wild rebel or unpredictable genius are extremely popular in pop culture (the James Dean type… He‘s an Aqua), and so are images of women as the glamorous feminine mystery or the ethereal dream girl (the Marilyn Monroe type… She had Neptune in Leo in the 1st).

In synastry on a personal level, a person's planets strongly influencing our Uranus and Neptune, or influencing us with their Uranus and Neptune, can be a profound experience. The person may seem out-of-this-world to us in someway... Regardless of their gender.

For women, when her Uranus is aspected by a guy, or he aspects her chart with his Uranus, there's the added thrilling feeling the he is exciting, fascinating, and even glamorously attractive, the way a guy should be. It lights up her personal abstract ideal of the male as the wild rebel or unpredictable genius... That guy that's unique, stands out, and impacts his environment.

For men when his Neptune is aspected by a lady, or she aspects his chart with her Neptune, there's the added enchanting feeling that she is alluring, otherworldly, intriguing, and even glamorously attractive, the way a lady should be. It lights up his personal abstract ideal of the female as the glamorous feminine mystery or the ethereal dream girl.. The lady whose feminine mystique inspires yearning where ever she goes, like some kind of fairytale princess.

The placements of Uranus and Neptune in our natal charts respectively show our personal images of masculinity and feminity in an over the top glamorous way… For my generation that’s Scorpio for men (Uranus in Scorpio) and Sagittarius for women (Neptune in Sagittarius).

Why Uranus and Neptune, and not Pluto and Neptune?

If men are shown by Sun/Mars/Uranus and women are shown by Moon/Venus/Neptune… Then Pluto is the joining of the two.

Pluto is more gender neutral then Uranus (which seems distinctly masculine to me). If Neptune is the female, and Uranus is the male, then Pluto is the connection itself between them…. Pluto rules the intimacy that can exist between the sexes, the power balance between them, what they share when they pool their resources, and the actual sex itself…

On a symbolic level Pluto represents the composite chart, or what happens when two natal charts combine to form a ‘relationship’ which is almost like a third entity itself. I guess my point is I don’t see Pluto as male or female so much as I see it as representing what happens during the union of male and female.

Using another analogy, if the 7th house is where we officially meet face to face with the partner, the 8th house (Pluto’s natural domain) is what happens when we combine and deal with each others personal ‘baggage’ from within the relationship.

Pluto is a Masculine seeming planet but it rules a feminine sign, Scorpio, and presides over 8th house issues, like what happens in the context of a union. Pluto rules the intimate connection itself, rather then an ideal of either male or female.

By contrast, Neptune is a feminine planet ruling a feminine sign, Pisces. And Uranus is a masculine planet ruling a masculine sign, Aquarius. The distinction here is a lot more obvious.

In astrology there are so many ways to connect with our ‘ideal’ images concerning the sexes…. But it does seem that each one has a certain special flavor to offer… And each time we meet someone who lights up one of these, they awaken feelings in us that relate to that part of what our ideal is.

For images of women in a Man’s chart… The Moon is the vulnerable girl a guy wants to protect, Venus is the fair beauty the he goes wild for, Neptune is ethereal glamour ideal that enchants him. I check all these by sign, house and aspect.

posted May 16, 2014 07:40 PM            

I've never heard anyone see things in such a way before.

posted May 16, 2014 07:48 PM            

Ok, I will give an example and see if this is what you mean. If a person has venus trine Chiron. Would she see pain in the people she loved?

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posted May 16, 2014 08:00 PM            

Ami,

posted May 16, 2014 08:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Great post, Lotis, thanks! About the glamorous planets I've noticed that too, in synastries, the effect it has when a man's Neptune and a woman's Uranus are aspected, it's just like you described. A really interesting theory!

I do however believe, about Sun/Moon and Venus/Mars that men are more attracted by a woman aspecting their Mars/Sun, and women by a man aspecting their Venus/Moon, if the other connections are there too (connections to Sun/Moon on both sides).

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Thanks.

To clarify I think there's a difference between ideals and chemistry.

Our gender ideals are shown by the symbolism in our natal chart... Like having Venus in Pisces for a guy would attract him to a women with a Pisces-like vibe in general. Our natal positions show the qualities we look for.

Chemistry, on the other hand, is shown through synastry. And the truth is that attraction between the sexes is shown with, say, a Mars/Venus aspect, regardless of who is the male and who is the female.

If his Mars aspects her Venus, he gets to act like the Man he feels he aught to be, while she gets to act like the women she feels she aught to be. He is exerting his Mars energy and getting a response, while she is exerting her Venus energy and getting a response.

If her Mars aspects his Venus, he is getting his feminine ideal 'touched', while she is getting her masculine ideal 'touched', plus the added physical/emotional attraction.

So it doesn't really matter which gender has which planet aspected... Certain types of aspects will generate attraction either way. I guess it just depends on weather you prefer to be the initiator or the receiver in relationships. The Masculine planets will initiate in synastry, while the feminine planets will receive in synastry (in general).

posted May 16, 2014 09:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
^ Well that would be contradictory to the popular belief.

Ami,

If someone has Venus trine Chiron, the people they attract would appear wounded in some way, and maybe seek their help.

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I don't think that is the case with me. I am the wounded one. Could that fit here?

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