posted April 14, 2015 08:25 PM            

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posted April 14, 2015 08:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Tell me about how you see this aspect, my Friend. Give examples if you can!

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I see these people as very independent thinkers. They don't like to be boxed in by traditional notions of 'good'.

I'm rather conventional morality wise; I have trouble accepting evil as a natural part of humanity.

Having said that I've got a lot of Scorpio in me as well, so I'm familiar with the self sabotaging cycle of making enemies out of otherwise good people by testing them unnecessarily, or blaming them for sins that aren't there, but I'm generally optimistic toward people I don't know.

My sting only appears when someone close to me has hurt me in the past- No matter what they do, I'll never trust them again (Venus/Scorpio).

Jupiter/Pluto aren't that particular. They're pessimistic about humanity as a whole.

Curiously, they see humanity as inherently bad, but they find that pretty awesome and worth celebrating like:

posted April 14, 2015 10:27 PM            

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posted April 14, 2015 10:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by whaaat:
I see these people as very independent thinkers. They don't like to be boxed in by traditional notions of 'good'.

I'm rather conventional morality wise; I have trouble accepting evil as a natural part of humanity.

Having said that I've got a lot of Scorpio in me as well, so I'm familiar with the self sabotaging cycle of making enemies out of otherwise good people by testing them unnecessarily, or blaming them for sins that aren't there, but I'm generally optimistic toward people I don't know.

My sting only appears when someone close to me has hurt me in the past- No matter what they do, I'll never trust them again (Venus/Scorpio).

Jupiter/Pluto aren't that particular. They're pessimistic about humanity as a whole.

Curiously, they see humanity as inherently bad, but they find that pretty awesome and worth celebrating like:

"You're a b*stard, I'm a b*stard, aren't we just the most ridiculous bunch? "

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Spy v. Spy

I loved MAD when I was a kid.

But I hear you.

And while I don't believe humanity (as a whole, ofc) is good,

I know that there's no glory in that, and it's nothing to revel in.

Not everyone who finds themselves in darkness, though, is driven

to the light.

Some folks like it there, just fine. :/

Idk, I have the trine.. but I don't understand it, either.

posted April 14, 2015 11:08 PM            

I believe you need to let love rule you, treat others as you'd want to be treated and there is no situation that love and the right attitude can't fix.

As far as the ppl your talking about, they are going to be stuck reincarnating quite awhile if they keep thinking the way you described. I want no part of it, I'd prefer to LOOK weak, naive and ignorant than to BE weak naive and ignorant by living in a way that's going to force me to keep coming back again and again to hit my head on more walls of pain just to learn more painful lessons as I return to the nightmare hell that we live in here on Earth.

posted April 14, 2015 11:11 PM            

Some folks like it there, just fine. :/

I agree 100%

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posted April 15, 2015 12:36 AM            

They could have been engineers (Saturn-Uranus), but never lived up to their potential.

One was bi-polar, the other was afflicted with paranoia and a very negative view of other people and the world (Saturn-Neptune).

They were both veterans living on disability, but I don't know if they'd been in a war zone or in combat.

They were both hermits.

They smoked pot every day.

They were both erratic, thinking one thing one day and then diametrically the opposite the next.

They both made bizarre decisions that were not in their best interests.

They both had tragic family histories and difficult relationships with women.

posted April 15, 2015 03:08 AM            

But if you see children, children is fantastic. They are kind, loving and very trusting of you. So what turned people so "bad" as they grew up? I believe that in everyone there is a good person and a good potential, so I believe in being nice towards people (though this is something I am not always good at anyways)

posted April 15, 2015 05:37 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
I knew two people with Saturn conjunct Neptune and Saturn square Uranus who were alike in a number of ways. One also had a Sun square Saturn, the other Moon square Saturn.

They could have been engineers (Saturn-Uranus), but never lived up to their potential.

One was bi-polar, the other was afflicted with paranoia and a very negative view of other people and the world (Saturn-Neptune).

They were both veterans living on disability, but I don't know if they'd been in a war zone or in combat.

They were both hermits.

They smoked pot every day.

They were both erratic, thinking one thing one day and then diametrically the opposite the next.

They both made bizarre decisions that were not in their best interests.

They both had tragic family histories and difficult relationships with women.

Of course there are very positive manifestations of Saturn-Uranus and Saturn-Neptune. But, the negative manifestations of these combinations is why I consider them to be very, very challenging, along with Saturn-Pluto, at the top of my list.

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I have Saturn sq Uranus. I must say that this is by far the most challenging aspect in my chart and my chart is filled with squares and oppositions.

posted April 15, 2015 05:47 AM            

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Originally posted by charlie:
I have Saturn sq Uranus. I must say that this is by far the most challenging aspect in my chart and my chart is filled with squares and oppositions.

I swing between, sometimes, brilliant Uranian lightbulb moments and complete and utter darkness. One second I am "free" and can basically do whatever my mind finds interesting and then I just become a pitiful (Leo-Saturn-not-a-good-placement) scaredy-cat. It's all quite terrible and hilarious at the same time!

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posted April 15, 2015 06:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
I knew two people with Saturn conjunct Neptune and Saturn square Uranus who were alike in a number of ways. One also had a Sun square Saturn, the other Moon square Saturn.

They could have been engineers (Saturn-Uranus), but never lived up to their potential.

One was bi-polar, the other was afflicted with paranoia and a very negative view of other people and the world (Saturn-Neptune).

They were both veterans living on disability, but I don't know if they'd been in a war zone or in combat.

They were both hermits.

They smoked pot every day.

They were both erratic, thinking one thing one day and then diametrically the opposite the next.

They both made bizarre decisions that were not in their best interests.

They both had tragic family histories and difficult relationships with women.

Of course there are very positive manifestations of Saturn-Uranus and Saturn-Neptune. But, the negative manifestations of these combinations is why I consider them to be very, very challenging, along with Saturn-Pluto, at the top of my list.

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posted April 16, 2015 01:34 AM            

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Originally posted by zirr1:
Why is Saturn-Pluto at the top of your list? The top for challenging? I have Saturn square Pluto and I relate to some of the points you made about those two people but not all..

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zirr, The two people don't have Saturn-Pluto aspects. These were Saturn-Uranus and Saturn-Neptune aspects I was referring to.

I think Saturn-Pluto is right up there with Saturn-Uranus and Saturn-Neptune as being the most challenging aspects in astrology.

I want to reiterate that all aspects have positive and negative qualities, and Saturn-Pluto is no different in that respect. But this thread is about the challenging and difficult characteristics of planets in combination. Also, not everyone experiences all the possible manifestations of an aspect. So, Saturn-Pluto.

For starters, archetypally, you have the two planets associated with death, which can be either physical death or ego death. Stanislav Grof, a psychiatrist born under a Saturn-Pluto opposition, links Saturn-Pluto with the birth trauma in that in being born in this world, we also die to our consciousness of unity prior to birth. Personally, I think that's why infants cry when their born. This birth trauma becomes a distant memory but people have reported re-experiencing this trauma in breathwork sessions.

There's a sense of isolation about Saturn-Pluto. These are the people who set themselves apart and that hang around the back of the room. They don't like being in crowds. Saturn-Pluto people have no great love for authority either.

Carl Jung, the Swiss psychiatrist who was the founder of Jungian psychology had a natal Saturn square Pluto. If you're not familiar with Jungian psychology, one of its most significant concepts is of the "shadow." The shadow represents the things we don't like about ourselves and that we often hide from others and the outside world. It represents desires, drives, attitudes and thoughts that don't conform to ego ideals. Saturn-Pluto people can carry within themselves or are often made aware of or have been confronted with the pathologies of the human psyche in one form or another. As an example, a friend of mine was a member of a team of lawyers who defended a serial killer in Washington state.

Saturn-Pluto is analogous to what in psychology is called the superego, which provides the moral standards of the ego, the "shoulds" and "oughts." It can manifest as extreme judgment or annihilating criticism against themselves and/or other people.
Another expression of Saturn-Pluto is the scapegoat and scapegoating, which is identifying those who are perceived as a cause of misfortune who then carry this burden for the collective. In families, the scapegoat is known as a black sheep. The emotions associated with Saturn-Pluto and the scapegoat are guilt and shame.

There is a raw, instinctual quality to these energies in combination that wants to survive at all costs. Saturn-Pluto is seen in the destructive fury of nature and in the violence within the human psyche.

Saturn-Pluto is highly sensitive to global issues like environmental degradation, social decay and corruption, or waste management. If I recall correctly, Liz Greene has written about Saturn-Pluto people who have had dreams about the holocaust, even though they were not born during that time. Nuclear winter and Apocalypse are images of Saturn-Pluto.

Saturn-Pluto is associated with situations of extreme deprivation and hardship. I've convinced Saturn-Pluto people are survivors and are as tough as they come.

Saturn-Pluto can also manifest as depression. William Styron, an American novelist who won a Pulitzer prize in 1968, wrote about his struggles with depression. He had Saturn trine Pluto, so in this case, the potency of the planets must override the aspect, even though benign. Saturn-Pluto is also linked to obsessive-compulsive disorder.

posted April 16, 2015 02:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:

I think Saturn-Pluto is right up there with Saturn-Uranus and Saturn-Neptune as being the most challenging aspects in astrology.

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Thank you for the marvelous post on Saturn/Pluto. I have it in my own chart (as do my siblings) and we sure did feel it leave it's mark on our fates.

posted April 17, 2015 02:19 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
peony,

I know someone who has always been fascinated with the 'shadow' of the human psyche, and has been researching criminal psychology for over 15 years as a hobby (he used to be able to list out all known serial killers in the US and Europe, and tell you all of their stories. And he has always been more interested in how people act as 'underdogs' rather than when they experience success). He has a sextile though, not a square - could this be the reason for his 'hobby' still?

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SaturnFan, yes, the "hobby" is certainly a manifestation of the Saturn-Pluto archetype.

posted April 17, 2015 02:39 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by whaaat:
Thank you for the marvelous post on Saturn/Pluto. I have it in my own chart (as do my siblings) and we sure did feel it leave it's mark on our fates.

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whaaat, you're welcome. My guess is if you wanted to elaborate, you would have.

posted April 17, 2015 12:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
SaturnFan, yes, the "hobby" is certainly a manifestation of the Saturn-Pluto archetype.

It seems to me that the potency of these planets outweigh the aspect. William Styron had the trine. It didn't spare him from a life-threatening depression. But, here's the interesting thing. Styron rather miraculously was saved from going through with suicide. Did the trine have something to do with that? Maybe, I don't know. I have a semi-sextile, a minor aspect. Did I experience a mild version of Saturn-Pluto? Is a soft aspect like light beer? Didn't feel that way to me. I don't think there is such a thing as "Saturn-Pluto light."

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"Saturn-Pluto light" made me laugh out loud

posted April 17, 2015 06:27 PM            

I cannot see myself having an Aqua Sun women for a friend.

When they started acting holier than though, I would stuff one of the vegetables from my garden in their mouth

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posted April 17, 2015 06:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
"Saturn-Pluto light" made me laugh out loud

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I wish I had the gift of a Robin Williams. But, it seems I only make people laugh when I'm dead serious. lol

quote:

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It does make sense that these 2 powerful and demanding planets would overpower even minor aspects.
I have the semi-square but hadn't paid much attention to it, and this whole conversation reminded me of the brilliant book you recommended a while ago, Descent to the Goddess. Such powerful lessons about facing the 'dark side' of the subconscious, every person with significant Pluto aspects should read it!

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Though diminutive in size, "Descent" is a powerful book.

posted April 19, 2015 08:26 PM              

I do find that I often dislike Aries moons.
My mom is one though and we never have problems.
I once dated an aqua with Aries moon. Yet there's a woman at work that I can't stand and she's aqua with Aries moon.