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Author Topic:   People who can override their natal chart aspects
incognito
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posted September 27, 2016 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for incognito     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my experience, most people can't override their negative aspects. For example if you tell a moon square uranus person that his moods are erratic and disturb others and might be the source of his relationship problems, he won't be able to really see it or change it.
Curious what others' experiences are with this?

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Electro DGX
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posted September 27, 2016 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Electro DGX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That really depends on who you are dealing with and the amount of incentive they have in regards to fixing their own issues. Of course, it also takes time; you're not going to just bring this up on one occasion and expect them to change at the drop of a hat. It also is probably rooted in who they are as an individual and who they grew up to be, so they naturally adapted to being this way. All in all though, I think it's just natural for people to have difficultly dealing with negative aspects; it's why they exist in the first place. I don't think people can't override their negative aspects though.

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DopGang
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posted September 27, 2016 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DopGang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Electro DGX:
That really depends on who you are dealing with and the amount of incentive they have in regards to fixing their own issues. Of course, it also takes time; you're not going to just bring this up on one occasion and expect them to change at the drop of a hat. It also is probably rooted in who they are as an individual and who they grew up to be, so they naturally adapted to being this way. All in all though, I think it's just natural for people to have difficultly dealing with negative aspects; it's why they exist in the first place. I don't think people can't override their negative aspects though.


Yes.

Also, I think in a lot of cases if you tell someone that they have such and such issue then they might just get upset with you. The number one most important thing by far (to me) is that the person who has the issue sees it as an issue. If not aware of our own problems, which comes through self awareness, then it's unlikely that anything will change, much.

I've made changes and I wouldn't say "overcome" my difficulties because it's always a struggle. Probably always will be. When I've had patterns of relationship problems then I began to look at myself. Which like Electro said, takes time and takes experience. It also takes awareness and desire for change.
After all that, it's only perhaps half the battle. The battle is never ending. Sometimes I still fall but I never quit trying.

Certainly though, I think anyone can do it.

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DannyCappy
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posted September 27, 2016 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DannyCappy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Isn't about aceppting or not.How you gonna acept something that isn't true? Yeah human beings tend to resist to change but what I see frequently is people getting angry because some astrologers wants people to swallow their assumptions."You have a moon-saturn aspect so you act like this and like that" and the person says NOOO I DON'T and the astrologer get mad!!

You can find many different point of views on internet about each aspect.Sometimes you see thousand of them and none seems to fit you!
Astrology is complex!!

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Electro DGX
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posted September 27, 2016 12:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Electro DGX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DannyCappy:
Isn't about aceppting or not.How you gonna acept something that isn't true? Yeah human beings tend to resist to change but what I see frequently is people getting angry because some astrologers wants people to swallow their assumptions."You have a moon-saturn aspect so you act like this and like that" and the person says NOOO I DON'T and the astrologer get mad!!

You can find many different point of views on internet about each aspect.Sometimes you see thousand of them and none seems to fit you!
Astrology is complex!!


Obviously aspects work out differently for everyone and no chart is the same, but those who use astrology to apply closed-ended generalizations about people and try to place that as who someone is aren't using astrology correctly imo.

What is most likely happening here is the identification of a real-life occurence that was applied to the chart in order to identify what the chart is trying to describe. If someone is erratic with their mood-swings and is disruptive in such a manner, and they have a Moon-Uranus square, that can be considered a potential indicator. It's not the otherway around.

Because of that, often it is about accepting that what one may be doing is causing problems for others and/or themselves. Yes, there are fatalistic interpretations out there that should be tossed without question, but completely disregarding any negative input can lead to a negative outcome.

@Dopgang, yes that's true too. I personally still struggle with my natal aspects (Mercury-Saturn), but I can say that dealing with them has become easier with time. I can't say Moon-Pluto though; I like it for some reason lol.
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DopGang
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posted September 27, 2016 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DopGang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DannyCappy:
Isn't about aceppting or not.How you gonna acept something that isn't true? Yeah human beings tend to resist to change but what I see frequently is people getting angry because some astrologers wants people to swallow their assumptions."You have a moon-saturn aspect so you act like this and like that" and the person says NOOO I DON'T and the astrologer get mad!!

You can find many different point of views on internet about each aspect.Sometimes you see thousand of them and none seems to fit you!
Astrology is complex!!


You misunderstood.

You can even apply this to people who don't believe in astrology or people who have charts that are not "difficult".
I meant accepting that you have a PROBLEM not accepting that you have an aspect that is supposed to have said problems.
Maybe mars square moon causes issues, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it causes some issue. Maybe you have issue that are not related to it astrologically.
I meant accept that you have a PROBLEM, whatever that problem is and whatever it's cause is.

I don't mean, "oh I have mars square moon so I must not like women and I have a temper." Maybe you love women and your temper isn't that bad. It does no good to work on issues that you don't have because astrology says that you must have them.

Is it clear now?

I've been working on issues that I have before I knew anything about astrology.

Let life lead, not astrology.
I think this is the biggest issue with astrology. Some take it as fate. So often that it's what you thought that I was trying to say. It's sad.
It so happens that my personal issues are confirmed through astrology and that's why I love astrology.

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elixir
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posted September 27, 2016 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elixir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think sometimes when the aspects are extremely difficult it will force the person to change. Maybe through an addiction or self help books or therapy. For example, if one person has debilitating social anxiety that affects their life too much for them to cope, they may do a 180 at some point and just decide to change.

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Kannon McAfee
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posted September 27, 2016 03:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kannon McAfee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by incognito:
In my experience, most people can't override their negative aspects. For example if you tell a moon square uranus person that his moods are erratic and disturb others and might be the source of his relationship problems, he won't be able to really see it or change it.
Curious what others' experiences are with this?

Override them in what time frame?

This relates to two things as I see it:

(1) Changing innate tendencies or overriding astrological factors takes time because one must first develop through the influence to learn the lessons in soul development.

(2) Balance: there is a balanced way of utilizing and expressing each astrological factor and for every human life; if someone seems off-balance in some respect it is not up to others to point to what they should do to change, but up to the person themselves to create the change they want.

Changing personality issues takes years, even decades to transmute them into something positive. Genuine change won't be done at the convenience of others or for their benefit, but at the initiative and for the benefit of the person themselves.

There can be very legitimate reasons why people are the way they are. It is up to them to discover them and up to us to be encouraging and supportive, as they change in their own time. Change most easily takes place when the person feels it is safe to do so and knows they are supported.

By the way, I was born when Moon was square Uranus, as was my dad. There are positives associated with this aspect which may be vital to the soul development of the person and a gift to those around, like the ability to set one's own rhythm and function independently of current fashions or herd behavior. The world needs folks like this, otherwise it becomes the dwelling place of mindless followers vulnerable to the pushiest personalities.

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incognito
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posted September 27, 2016 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for incognito     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
Overridethemin what time frame?

Thi relates to two things as I see it:

(1) Changing innate tendencies or overriding astrological factors takes time because one must first develop through the influence to learn the lessons in soul development.

(2) Balance: there is a balanced way of utilizing and expressing each astrological factor and for every human life; if someone seems off-balance in some respect it is not up to others to point to what they should do to change, but up to the person themselves to create the change they want.

Changing personality issues takes years, even decades to transmute them into something positive. Genuine change won't be done at the convenience of others or for their benefit, but at the initiative and for the benefit of the person themselves.

There can be very legitimate reasons why people are the way they are. It is up to them to discover them and up to us to be encouraging and supportive, as they change in their own time. Change most easily takes place when the person feels it is safe to do so and knows they are supported.

By the way, I was born when Moon was square Uranus, as was my dad. There are poitives associated with this aspectwhich may be vital to the soul development of the person and a gift to those around, like the ability to set one's own rhythm and function independently of current fashions or herd behavior. The world needsfolks like this, otherwise it becomes the dwelling place of mindless followers vulnerable to the pushiest personalities.


I'm not saying moon uranus square isn't needed. I'm sure these people can be extremely creative in many ways. In fact you have brought up a good point, maybe they just don't see the need to change anything. But in terms of getting to know them personally- it can be chaotic and destabilizing for others and this in turn makes people feel negatively about the person. Not a huge deal, I know. You can't please everyone.

Let me give another example though. I know someone with a moon saturn mars conjunction. Most people will agree that this isn't good to have. This person will have anger issues and a tendency towards depression. If he doesn't explode, then he implodes. The person gradually becomes isolated because he explodes at the slightest provocation from his friends and family and work colleagues. He is very internally negative and people avoid dealing with him.

I don't see this as something that can be changed in most cases because your chart is like a computer program. The energy of moon saturn will always be there. Its difficult to find a creative way to channel such energy.

Say this person listens to advice. He stops reacting with such anger. Will it feel like he isn't being true to himself and isn't being "real"?


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Kannon McAfee
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posted September 27, 2016 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kannon McAfee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by incognito:
In my experience, most people can't override their negative aspects.

I agree -- with a change of "can't" to won't. But what most people won't do does does not define a limit of "can't" for everyone else.

I'm certainly not most people. I have changed aspects of my personality out of a perceived need to survive and thrive, and because I'd learned the strengths and lessons of the chart factor I'd had enough of (Moon in Cap) and realized it was no longer serving me.

But these changes of personality take time. They are not abracadabra at someone else's request. They start at the consciousness level with the acceptance that they can be changed. Once you've had your conversation with the universe about it and given the command, it is simply a matter of time.

The difference is I know I'm in charge of me and my life.

As to your example of Moon conjunct Mars-Saturn:

I'm not most people so I don't use the duality dilemma language of 'bad' vs 'good'. In theory we may not consider such an aspect as desirable, but for the native it is irrelevant. It is in their chart and it is up to them to learn the lessons and find the balanced expression of it. It is certainly a challenging chart factor, and many may end up in the Saturnine position of holding their Martial urges or impulses in check at the expense of urgent necessary expression. That would create another imbalance to remedy the previous one, and as the Zen master said you cannot wipe away blood with blood.

There is balance to be found in any natal chart and in any chart factor, because what we are looking at is a set of subtle energy relationships. Astrology is a language of this subtle energy, not a law. Since this exists within one's own inner sky that is where the answers and potential lie -- not in carved-in-stone rules astrologers may prefer for pronouncement's sake.

Humans are frequently full of contradictory feelings ... I love him, I hate him. Should both feelings be expressed outwardly to him at once? It is not inauthentic for such a native to respond with appropriateness -- appropriateness to the situation which maintains the balance of relationships in their life. Note I said appropriateness, not others' expectations and not pleasing others at personal expense.

It is too easy for an astrological birth chart to be conflated with the self and thus confuse the entire situation of who I am and what I can do. It is not the self, only a set of influences.

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violet7887
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posted September 27, 2016 11:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for violet7887     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
if its what you want, you must always try.

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PixieJane
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posted September 28, 2016 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see the natal chart as a deck of cards handed out. How you play them (and how they get played for you by others) is a different matter. A neglected Scorpio raised in a very dysfunctional home would like be very different from a Scorpio raised in a loving home, while in either case meeting the right or wrong person outside the home can also have an affect on how the chart manifests in healthy and unhealthy ways.

I know of one guy who was surprising given his Libra sun, but he had been more stereotypical before being horribly abused over it (his Libra traits were seen as "gay" which had to be beaten out of him) and endured other trauma as a result of that. It radically changed him (though not in the way his family hoped). He showed me pictures of himself as a kid and I'd have never guessed that boy (who fit the description of Libra mentally and physically back then) would grow into the man before me.

Of course if we couldn't escape our charts no matter what then it wouldn't matter. We could be raised by wolves and somehow still be the same people we are today. I don't believe that. Nor do I believe that our natal charts decide if we're say abused or not (though synastry matters), because that would be placing the child's natal chart over that of the adults around her...and that would mean that those of us with children would need to study our children's natal charts, not to see how we interact, but to know ourselves because the charts of the children override our own natal chart! That's ridiculous, IMO.

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PixieJane
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posted September 28, 2016 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's also the question of how the behavior is subjectively viewed.

If someone believes that friends should show unfair favoritism and back stab others on the friend's behalf, then Libra will come off as having questionable loyalties at best, even two-faced, because from the subjective perspective Libra isn't a true friend by being unfair in the would-be friend's favor and thus feels betrayed by Libra. Libra isn't going to see himself or herself as two-faced but fair, and I say Libra is right to do so, but understand it all depends on how you define friendship and what your personal ethics regarding friends and behavior are.

Likewise, fixed signs can be seen as stubborn, but sometimes they're just firm. Maybe they can't adapt as fast as mutable signs, but that doesn't mean they're thickheaded. There's pros and cons to both being mutable and being fixed, and the cons can be focused on while ignoring the pros that come with it. (That is, being irrationally stubborn can also make them steadfast allies who aren't easily swayed by BS, and both the pro and con comes from the same trait in which someone exposed to the con sees as a problem while the said fixed sign does not--and considers the trait admirable rather than flawed, which sometimes it is).

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PixieJane
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posted September 28, 2016 08:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heck, it gets more complicated than that. I had meant to start a thread but forgot in which I linked (through editing) threads asking about common relationship problems, like say the guy who was close but then put up distance. These men being discussed are displaying the same behavior, but they have different astrological placements and that creates the lens in which to explain their behavior, with no one seeming to notice it's common.

Or for that matter, people who feel that body image insecurities are unique to themselves, so they look to their chart for that is, when what they should look to their cart for is why they're so easily fooled by surface appearances to think this is rare (when there's an entire industry dependent on poor body image among their customers), or why they think they compare their everyday lives to the highlights of someone else's as they mistake the highlights for the ordinary (and thus feel bad).

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PixieJane
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posted September 28, 2016 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Btw, I've been reflecting on how my views have changed over the years. If it wasn't an election year I'd share the details of it. But all I'll say is that I would not see eye to eye with my 20-year-old self and we'd argue a lot (but probably still get along, though I'm sure younger-me would resolve not to let herself become me in the future ). Thing is, both of us would be manifesting (that is, using the reasoning of) our Libra Saturn (in stellium with sun), just in different ways.

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