posted November 02, 2016 05:58 AM            

Imagine you are in a deep hunger or in a war, would your values about not stealing, lying, or similar would have the same weight? I assume not, we need to be alive in first place to worry about something else. it is noticeable when someone risk their lives to save someone else (specially if that someone else is a stranger. why? because by instinct most would try to save themselves first..

I have noticed (my sample is 3 people I know well) that people whose pluto touch mars (two cases by conjunction and the other by sextile) there are other plutonian themes in these three people, but i have seen other plutonian themes and this in particular strikes me as the ONE to blame.

these people can go around manipulating (although it is obvious in the three of them that they are manipulative) to get something. the striking thing is not the manipulation, but the discovery that they really do not care about how their actions afect others. they can pretend they care, but they dont. really... I will give some examples
1. taking a man-woman from a friend if they can. they are in surviving mood. all men-women are in extinction. they will hide the intentions, but their surviving needs are first than the loyalty to a friend.
2. the willingness to date married partner and try to split a marriage for same reason above... it does not mean these people are dating marrying people, it is the fact that they would if they feel attracted to one. they do not think about the suffering they can bring to others, surprisingly
3.- if i can get away with this, then it is ok. the moral is below the threshold of consideration toward how actions are affecting others (this may go from using friends and family and even strangers as instruments to a mean and disposing when not needed) sometimes they approach pretending to care, but their manipulative behavior is always obvious. i dont know about other pluto combinations, but this one is obvious. it is like the manipulative personality is obvious to the people they meet.

something else i notice is a rude way of expression. no matter where mercury is located, these folks can say comments that are raw.. not sure how to explain. i am not talking the uranian directness, even the mercury pluto sharp comments. it is something that falls into vulgarity. like they can express themselves with vulgarity.. there is something vulgar about the way they express themselves when they show their true face

I have met people with many plutonian themes, but it is this one that strike me as vulgar.

posted November 02, 2016 06:38 AM            

I have worked with cases where people did things that I considered *sinking low*. It created a kind of conflict within me. In one way, I felt deeply for them and did not condemn them. In another way, I wondered if those feelings were misplaced.

I don't place ethics and morals above everything, nah. But I don't place personal interest n survival above everything either.

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I'm not refined, but vulgar... Nah. I can be pretty crass and rude if the other party behaves that way towards me though. In times of conflicts and falling out, what some didn't really get, was that my niceness and politeness towards them weren't for covering up my ability to be rude.

All three of your examples are what I would not do. I don't really get how they relate to "survival" theme.

Well, this

quote:

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3.- if i can get away with this, then it is ok. the moral is below the threshold of consideration toward how actions are affecting others

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I can sort of see how it would plays out in extreme cases.

But this one here really has me scratching my head. I'm trying to think of situations where it would apply, but just can't.

quote:

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Originally posted by nordicsoul:

1. taking a man-woman from a friend if they can. they are in surviving mood. all men-women are in extinction. they will hide the intentions, but their surviving needs are first than the loyalty to a friend.

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I can't see how having a man or woman relates to "survival" theme. Lol unless we're talking about ensuring one's DNA is carried to the next generation or s.t.

My loyalty lies with my family first though. I remember watching this buzzfeed video about who would you save if their train crash. Placing myself in the similar situations, my friends wouldn't be my first choice.

Survival is like between life and death. When I read your posts, at first I was like "Yeah yeah can I get this". Then I was like "Ehhh". Going for someone's partner is just bad taste. And bad for them too, if the offended party decide to retaliate. Dumb move imo. Of anything to p!ss off a person, that has got to be one of the top one that can get one killed.

Manipulation can be a game, one that I'm reluctant to participate, avoid if I can. Never do that to innocent parties. There are extreme cases when I go back and forth with people who play the same game. But friends and family, duh - I smell manipulation, I drop them, so I don't do that to them either.

Married people are off limit, people who are emotionally attached and/or in some kind of sexual arrangement are off limit also. Well, I'm together with s.o now, so everyone is off limit, really.

On top of my head, I can only speak about two people with mars/pluto.

One person has mars/venus square pluto. I'm not close with her, but from what I can see, she's sweet and gentle and very polite. Very physically attractive. Dates her childhood friend. Don't know if she has many skeletons in her closet, but yeah.

Another has mars conj pluto in libra. Heh he's a sweet butterfly. Can't imagine him doing any of the 3 examples you mentioned.

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posted November 02, 2016 09:27 AM            

This sounds more like a question of personal evolution with these aspects instead of the aspect itself. My sister has Mars in Gemini opposite Pluto in Sag and has gotten into some very messy situations, and she only furthers it by being overly-dramatic about it, even though I can see right through her. Rude way of expression...perhaps. With my sister it can be more evident because of Mars in Gemini, but if I am rude with my expression it is usually on purpose and you can tell when I'm trying to hit you with hard insults.

One thing that can be considered true for the both of us though is that if there is a fight between the two of us, it will be intense and it will drag on. It has even gotten physical, but whereas she cannot control herself very well, I can. That's the difference between us.

Mars in Scorpio parallel Pluto.

posted November 02, 2016 10:28 AM            

At least that's my observation having been in survival situations that weren't just momentary, and how the world appears to me from further study, and speaking to others. Perhaps some really do hold to their scruples no matter what...and unless rescued then they don't survive, and thus it's hard to know about them (of course people can switch to full survival mode and still die, and even if they survive they may make themselves forget about it). I don't think you can speak on this until you've been there, where your survival is in question, you have gone days without food, violence is around you and creeps gravitate to you (and thus you feel hunted) and others you know, you can't go to the cops for help (and even hospitals are risky), and there appears to be no end to it. (In turn, I don't feel I can say what I'd have been like in a much worse situation as I've heard others describe.)

As a Pluto sextile Mars myself (both in stelliums) who has been tested, I can speak on this. One, I was a thief to survive, though I did not steal from people who helped us or who had little. I preferred to steal from stores. The one time I took part in burglary, I was immediately against the idea of stealing jewelry due to its sentimental nature, which is more than what most did.

Given my size (which is why I was chosen for burglary as I could fit through a very small window level with the ground, though I was also being used to test for dogs and other problems, but I wouldn't figure that out until later) I was used to panhandle. I was given common stories to give, and when it was obvious I was homeless then I was to do things like pretending to be praying silently to get more money (it works!), but I felt uncomfortable with that (and also uncomfortable with begging in general, it's not my nature, and perhaps my Leo ASC has something to do with that), though I was not only surviving, I was helping my street family survive with me.

I also shared food even though it left me hungry, though I did take some for myself, and I shared more with those who shared with me. And not just with my krew, but others I got to know, like a junkie wanted by the law who was sweet to me that we called Pappy, and after he died I spent years doing rituals for the healing and peace of his soul (long story). I was also protective of a boy 2 years younger than me though he defied me like a bratty little brother, and when the boy being hunted by a creep chose to sleep next to a church rather than in a squat (as the creep knew about the squat we were staying in), I stayed with him though it was cold and uncomfortable (and I thought he was seriously and inexplicably deluded for believing nothing bad could happen to him by a church). Even in survival I knew compassion for others.

Perhaps notable is that I don't give up. I suppose I could, but when tied up (don't ask for details) I worked nonstop for hours to cut the ropes, and when I got away I took a knife, ready to use it (though I came scarily close to using it on someone who meant me well later, but his psychic sensitivity that compelled him to help me also warned him not to get too close).

Later, when I was off the streets and felt secure in my ability to eat, I was forced to wait a long time in a convenience store while a guy went into a back room for a private call that he said was important. I waited 5 minutes before I could be rung up. It occurred to me later that I could've easily gotten away with stealing all I bought and more besides (the guy didn't look like he cared about me or the store), but I didn't feel regret for the missed opportunity. Why? Because I wasn't in survival mode. It makes a difference.

That's true of even more drastic survival situations. One of the sweetest and compassionate women I have ever known slit the throat of the man raping her mother as they were escaping Stalinist Russia.

I've also volunteered my time when no one else would (I got pulled in to help a library when I was 17 after all 20 volunteers flaked, and I hadn't even volunteered, but I knew they desperately needed my help, and it was not easy, and that's not the only example I have), and done years of random acts of kindness, which includes buying the things a woman I barely knew needed to care for her beloved cat (it was enough that I had to use a wheelbarrow to carry it over). I cleaned up the messes that even those whose job it was to clean wouldn't do (like one cut the dog poop to ONLY get the dog poop on church property, which must've been harder than picking it all up!), and though I resolved not to clean up broken glass that a bunch of mothers wouldn't, I ended up doing so because I thought of animals getting it in their paws and then licking it off to swallow it. I had the reputation as a sucker, and some people had no respect for me for being like that.

And it's not guilt for my past, and I've gotten rid of one charity bell ringer for being obnoxious (by first telling him off, and then telling the store what he was doing which was going to drive away customers). Those who try to guilt me into something, or use other manipulative tactics, will find me cold to them.

It's probably worth noting that I don't believe in the reward/punishment karma. That is, I don't think that by giving someone $10 means I'll get $30 dollars later, nor do I believe the Lords of Karma are waiting to cast down judgment on me using human sensibilities. Generally speaking, I believe we're here on this Earth alone, and THAT'S WHY I have helped. If I believed in God working miracles willy nilly and angels rushing around helping the helpless then why would I bother? It's strange to me that people who believe in all that stuff do it when it shouldn't be necessary though I take it that they see helping others (which they tend to do a lot less than I do) as a mercenary arrangement, by doing so they avoid punishment and get paid, but that's not how my mind works, and not my motivation. I see it as BECAUSE we live in an indifferent universe that we need to help each other.

posted November 02, 2016 10:29 AM            

And these mars-pluto people you describe are terrible at manipulation and double dealing if they're blatantly "vulgar" as you put it and showing their true face.

posted November 02, 2016 02:15 PM            

Yeah, the thing is, morals are socially constructed, and in most cases, originate from organized religion. I tend to see through morals and the people purporting them..

It is exactly as you're saying: would your values about not stealing, lying, or similar, have the same weight if you were in a deep hunger or war?

No, of course not. But most people don't even need to be in a deep hunger or war to throw away their 'values,' myself included. I see it every single day: people are cruel to each other, quick to judge, have no problem lying or manipulating or exploiting others, all while pretending like they're against these things. I'm not saying it's bad, as I don't really subscribe to any moral system myself. I'm more of an 'every man for themselves' kind of person, because I think that it's our true nature; that's how things end up anyway. However, I don't usually find myself in situations where I feel the need to exploit others. I'm pretty autonomous.

As for romantic relationships.. I have definitely developed feelings for people who were in relationships, but I don't think they knew, because I would sort of disappear from their lives out of embarrassment (since I can't really hide those feelings). Like, if they're with someone else and they don't break up with them shortly after meeting me, then they obviously don't like me that way. So I distance myself until I'm over it.

posted November 02, 2016 02:25 PM            

http://cafeastrology.com/natal/marsplutoaspects.html

Your theory doesn't make much sense to me.

Even if I were desperate and in survival mode, why should married people be more attractive to me? Just because they're unavailable? As if I'm used to living on a meager diet, and my tiny stomach can only handle the people who can only give me a small amount of their time and affection, because they're not mine?

Actually I've always been really picky and reluctant to get involved. No matter how attracted I've been, it was as the article above says: "all or nothing."

posted November 02, 2016 02:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

It's probably worth noting that I don't believe in the reward/punishment karma. That is, I don't think that by giving someone $10 means I'll get $30 dollars later, nor do I believe the Lords of Karma are waiting to cast down judgment on me using human sensibilities. Generally speaking, I believe we're here on this Earth alone, and THAT'S WHY I have helped. If I believed in God working miracles willy nilly and angels rushing around helping the helpless then why would I bother? It's strange to me that people who believe in all that stuff do it when it shouldn't be necessary though I take it that they see helping others (which they tend to do a lot less than I do) as a mercenary arrangement, by doing so they avoid punishment and get paid, but that's not how my mind works, and not my motivation. I see it as BECAUSE we live in an indifferent universe that we need to help each other.

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posted November 02, 2016 05:17 PM            

Just for clarification:

1.- I based my observation on 3 cases and I was clear about that. I did not expect 3 cases to be representative, but just called my attention and wanted to hear other opinions and experiences.

2.- i did not imply that these people go out with married partner as a rule.. this was an example. so if you have the aspect and do not date married people, it is ok. this was an example of something that a mars-pluto person may perceive as "survival" when in reality is not. like competing for the best fit partner as if men or women were in extinction and this is the only one remaining...SOS

3.- I said that survival beats moral in most people (regardless of astrological chart and pointed out to hunger or war as situations in which moral values take second place).. if a person in in extreme situations survival is the priority. then moral values take a different view...but what I noticed in these three pluto-mars cases is that for the pluto-mars person, most things are perceived as life or death situations. so, they are in "survival mode" most of the time. as such, their morals are most of the time on a low threshold... i did not mean that taken someone married is a survival situation, but for the mars-pluto person it may seem so...

I hope these clarifications avoid more responses explaining what survival is and what is not...

I also would like to hear opinions of people not having the aspect but know well people with the aspect. Is it possible that part of the aspect do not allow the person to see themselves objectively?

Thanks

NS

posted November 02, 2016 09:04 PM            

A person I know with a Mars-Pluto opposition has done basically all the things you mentioned, OP.

I have Mars parallel Pluto and I guess the parallel may be a more harmonious and less aberrant manifestation of the energy, but I still recognize the potential for amorality in myself, although I do not act on it anymore, when I was younger I definitely had more of a tendency to be selfish and calculating in relationships. I had very little respect for morality, although I never intentionally hurt anybody, and never stole anybody's boyfriend, etc... still I recognize my selfish motivations. I have grown and matured a lot and understand that my mission in life is to understand other people's experiences and genuinely act for their healing and the betterment of the lives around me.

posted November 02, 2016 11:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by nordicsoul:
Is it possible that part of the aspect do not allow the person to see themselves objectively?

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While another perspective can be enlightening, it can also be just as deluded. For example, I've been seen as a homicidal Satanist, a fundamentalist Christian with racist overtones (by both of those who thought that was a good thing and those who thought it a bad thing), a diabolical computer cracker, someone probably too dumb to spell my own name, among other things, by different people. Guys have mistook my disinterest for playing hard to get and/or snobbishness, and women have thought I was after her guy or just unacceptable competition when I wasn't interested in either. Just because they're on the outside looking in doesn't necessarily give them a more accurate view of who and what a person is.

posted November 03, 2016 06:14 PM            

There were men in my life who I fell in love with just to find out that they were married or in a relationship. I was in love and I wanted to be with them. It never worked out and I am glad, but I wouldn't change a thing because I'm human and I learned a great deal from all this.

posted November 03, 2016 07:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cinnamon sky:
I have Cancer Mars square Libra Pluto. Yes, us Mars-Pluto people are the devil's incarnation on earth, not even indisguised of course. We are just awful, awful people. All the Disney villains have this aspect. We are cruel as f...and vulgar to the bone. But we also have superpowers. Which is why others fear us, of course. And one of these superpowers is the mirror we show others on what they are not willing or not able to see in themselves. When we get thrown on with tomatoes, spoiled eggs and putrid words, look at us and get even angrier, because the longer you accuse, the more you will realise that all we are in your life is a big, vulgar, unpleasant mirror of your own shadow. You can run, but you can't hide. Muhaha

<3

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I love this.

I haven't known too many scary people in my life. I'm sure Mars square Pluto is more common than scary people.

Well but I have sun square Pluto, and I know how rarely my bad side actually comes out with something approaching full intensity.

posted November 04, 2016 12:22 AM            

I have to say that I can relate the 3 patterns in both of them: the first (longtime partner) dated a girl, married with her old sister and lay down with other 2 sisters of them while married. He started to dated me while married. He was a unloyal to a mutual friend when we was in high school because he dated the friend's girlfriend; but the male friend forgive him and still be friends.

The second one, it's a serial cheater, divorced once; I met him and try to break up my relationship with the main guy (almost do it), but he suddenly felt in love with other girl, started to live with her, and time later he is chasing me again. He don't love me, just want to have "fun" with me even I tried to avoid it time after time.

Both guys have Scorpio as prominent sing (mars/pluto) the main one it's Scorpio Sun Asc Taurus, and the second guy it's Taurus Sun Asc Scorpio; the weird thing of all this, it's that both Sun/Asc conjunctions are in the same degree on just one degree apart. Both men has as "animal totem" lion and feel related to them

I have Sun opposite Pluto, so I believe that I have a kind of "magnet" to plutonic characters. Btw I'm pisces. My Mars and Saturn opposites their Sun and Asc, so I can deal with them even there are a clash of wills in our conversations very often.

Not all Mars/Pluto persons can be this way, but in my personal and very close experience, I can say that they are:

posted November 04, 2016 01:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cinnamon sky:
I have Cancer Mars square Libra Pluto. Yes, us Mars-Pluto people are the devil's incarnation on earth, not even indisguised of course. We are just awful, awful people. All the Disney villains have this aspect. We are cruel as f...and vulgar to the bone. But we also have superpowers. Which is why others fear us, of course. And one of these superpowers is the mirror we show others on what they are not willing or not able to see in themselves. When we get thrown on with tomatoes, spoiled eggs and putrid words, look at us and get even angrier, because the longer you accuse, the more you will realise that all we are in your life is a big, vulgar, unpleasant mirror of your own shadow. You can run, but you can't hide. Muhaha

<3

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posted November 10, 2016 04:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cinnamon sky:
I have Cancer Mars square Libra Pluto. Yes, us Mars-Pluto people are the devil's incarnation on earth, not even indisguised of course. We are just awful, awful people. All the Disney villains have this aspect. We are cruel as f...and vulgar to the bone. But we also have superpowers. Which is why others fear us, of course. And one of these superpowers is the mirror we show others on what they are not willing or not able to see in themselves. When we get thrown on with tomatoes, spoiled eggs and putrid words, look at us and get even angrier, because the longer you accuse, the more you will realise that all we are in your life is a big, vulgar, unpleasant mirror of your own shadow. You can run, but you can't hide. Muhaha

<3

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posted November 10, 2016 05:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
While another perspective can be enlightening, it can also be just as deluded. For example, I've been seen as a homicidal Satanist, a fundamentalist Christian with racist overtones (by both of those who thought that was a good thing and those who thought it a bad thing), a diabolical computer cracker, someone probably too dumb to spell my own name, among other things, by different people. Guys have mistook my disinterest for playing hard to get and/or snobbishness, and women have thought I was after her guy or just unacceptable competition when I wasn't interested in either. Just because they're on the outside looking in doesn't necessarily give them a more accurate view of who and what a person is.

And btw, it's not just me who gets mistaken for such. My BFF who does not have a Pluto-Mars sextile or conjunction also faces very distorted views of herself by others.

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posted November 10, 2016 05:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Selenite:
I'm more of an 'every man for themselves' kind of person, because I think that it's our true nature;

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posted November 10, 2016 05:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Piscean Tigress:
I have been dated with 2 men with this aspects: the main one has the conjunction in stellium with Jupiter and Uranus, and the other one has the square.

I have to say that I can relate the 3 patterns in both of them: the first (longtime partner) dated a girl, married with her old sister and lay down with other 2 sisters of them while married. He started to dated me while married. He was a unloyal to a mutual friend when we was in high school because he dated the friend's girlfriend; but the male friend forgive him and still be friends.

The second one, it's a serial cheater, divorced once; I met him and try to break up my relationship with the main guy (almost do it), but he suddenly felt in love with other girl, started to live with her, and time later he is chasing me again. He don't love me, just want to have "fun" with me even I tried to avoid it time after time.

Both guys have Scorpio as prominent sing (mars/pluto) the main one it's Scorpio Sun Asc Taurus, and the second guy it's Taurus Sun Asc Scorpio; the weird thing of all this, it's that both Sun/Asc conjunctions are in the same degree on just one degree apart. Both men has as "animal totem" lion and feel related to them

I have Sun opposite Pluto, so I believe that I have a kind of "magnet" to plutonic characters. Btw I'm pisces. My Mars and Saturn opposites their Sun and Asc, so I can deal with them even there are a clash of wills in our conversations very often.

Not all Mars/Pluto persons can be this way, but in my personal and very close experience, I can say that they are:

1. Manipulative
2. Selfish
3. Rude
4. strong headed
5. Resentful
6. Vengeful (both hate to death each other even they don't meet in person)
7. Highly sexual (choose sex over feelings/love)
8. surprisingly sweet, loving and loyal in the deep core!

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posted November 10, 2016 05:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:

So, maybe you're right about seeking a state of relationship-deprivation or minimalism, but in my case it's translated more to "I don't need anyone at all, I'm self-sufficient" and not "I'm starving and need someone at all costs."

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posted November 10, 2016 05:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by girlwiththerainysoul:
I agree, as I myself have the exact trine and closely know people who have the trine (2 people), opposition (1 person), conjunction (1 person) and sextile (4 people). I don't know a square. while the situations that happen play out differently for each aspect (especially harder on this person who has the conjunction), one thing is in common. and that is that any mars/pluto connection in the natal gives the person a high potential for feeling as well as acting with a certain amount of cruelty when it comes to getting what they want. but morality is a whole other concept and is more related to jupiter aspects imo. so the person will most probably not act on this aspect unless they have stressed jupiter as well (Angelina Jolie and Marilyn Monroe being the examples of a mars/pluto aspect along with a stressed jupiter).

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