posted August 17, 2019 06:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mourningfire:
I never believed in astrology until i read about this aspect. There are aspects with much tighter orbs than this one in my chart but this one embodies me. Every single interpretation I read had some truth to it, every single interpretation was relatable. Desiring someone while simultaneously being disgusted by them. And then being disgusted with yourself. The need for intimacy and the simultaneous fear of intimacy. The need for depth in personal relationships while simultaneously pushing people away when they start to get too close. Wanting to be known and understood but fearing vulnerability. That's the paradox. I know this, I live this.

But, my question is, how do those with venus square pluto learn to let go? How do they heal and move on after being crushed? (For some background, I'm going through a difficult breakup. We can't be together, it's impossible. Stupidly, I let him in and gave in to my feelings. We have venus square pluto double whammy in synastry too.)
What lessons are those with venus square pluto really supposed to learn?

---

Hey,

I don't have that aspect but I have moon square pluto and venus sextile pluto too and have also been through pluto mars and sun in synastries.
Some of those questions you ask are being discussed in other painful breakups threads at the moment...

My experience of Pluto anything is: the only way out is through. It's not so much about a lesson to learn as it is about survival and regeneration.
You don't let go of Pluto, you embrace it, go with it to the depth of the earth, exhaust yourself, purge yourself of all that's being overwhelming and then crawl back to the surface, new.

posted August 17, 2019 09:49 PM            

I say "stupidly" because the relationship was doomed from the start. Still, I wanted something real, something all-consuming and he was worth the pain for me. I gave in, he didn't. I was the weak one, the vulnerable one, the one who threw caution and pride to the wind. But ultimately he couldn't invest in something he knew was going to fail. We both have venus square pluto (mine in pisces, his in virgo; venus opp venus as well).

posted August 18, 2019 05:32 AM            

It manifests much more ugly than that for me, but the positives really make up for it.

posted August 18, 2019 03:43 PM            

I tell pretty much everyone with such hard aspects with Venus or Moon to Pluto that a good deal of these very real feeling energies can be channeled into a creative outlet. It's a safe place to explore them. Otherwise, they have a way of building up and bursting out into your real world expectations.

The outer three transpersonal planets Uranus, Neptune, Pluto can be difficult to integrate with more personal energies (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars) when in such hard aspects. It takes time. Have a creative outlet for them so they can be explored in a less personal, or at least less self-destructive way.

posted August 18, 2019 04:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mourningfire:
Moonbeth, I read that thread a few days ago and I have to say, what you wrote and the way you wrote it resonated with me so deeply as does what you posted in this thread. You're right, the only way out is through. I know I can withstand this pain, but what terrifies me is that I truly feel like I am never going to get over him.

I say "stupidly" because the relationship was doomed from the start. Still, I wanted something real, something all-consuming and he was worth the pain for me. I gave in, he didn't. I was the weak one, the vulnerable one, the one who threw caution and pride to the wind. But ultimately he couldn't invest in something he knew was going to fail. We both have venus square pluto (mine in pisces, his in virgo; venus opp venus as well).

Makes me wonder how much the sign venus is in modifies how the aspect manifests. I've always considered the aspect to be "stronger" than the sign, where the needs of the aspect overpower the needs of the sign itself by nature of the configuration. Meaning, since a square is an inherent tension between the planets themselves, that energy would sort of compulsively manifest itself. Whereas, the sign that the planet is in manifests itself in a more intrinsic yet passive way. I guess it's probably more of a combination of the two.

---

I'm glad if anything I can bring here helps in any way, shape or form. As I've said on the other thread, the hardest thing for me probably was this feeling of inadequacy because no one really understood, if I can alleviate that for others, then good.
You don't have to feel you can let go of someone. I mean, before you meet them, you don't feel like you're in love with people, do you? Well, then, the same way, the falling out of love happens after you've opened up to that possibility and allowed it in, the same way you had opened up to love in the first place. You don't have to see the end result as you begin to get there. It's a personal journey, not a pre-determined one.

I must be stupid (I am lol) because I still don't see how that was stupid in any way. There's a fruit I adore that only grows in a specific part of the world and can't be exported. Should I deprive myself of it when I travel simply because it is not made to be a part of life diet?
You said it yourself, you wanted to be consumed and you went for it, again, I see bravery and will, not stupidity, certainly not weakness.

Being weak and vulnerable are two very different things. Being vulnerable, forsaking of pride and caution? Those sound so strong to me, and generous too, that he didn't reciprocate those makes him quite a bit of a coward, but they don't make him strong, or you weak.

Ha. This is one of the most interesting questions I have asked myself lately in terms of astrology.
Someone here read a composite for me and I felt assaulted by the implications. It didn't just hurt to read negative things, I felt condemned by it because I felt judged based on past incarnations of myself with no hope or possibility to exist outside those fatalistic and negative views. The person could have told me to kill myself and it would have had the same effect (what's the point of living if you're not allowed room to breathe, grow...?).
The core of what bothered me was a firm chart over free will stance. Going further in my questioning (because I like to be thorough when I debrief a poor experience with myself ) I did realise that when people read synastries and composites they tended to grant aspects almighty power and also establish hierarchy between aspects (apparently some composite midpoints are way stronger than trines between planets...) and one of the reasons why this triggers rebellion in me is because I don't understand it, the only argument to support these practices I've been given was "experience", but that's basically statistics and since not everybody believes in astrology, turns to it for analysis and also most people who seek any type of help are those in trouble, then that "experience" comes in as quite flawed to me. Too much so to tell someone "you're only attracted to this man because you can't tell abusive relationships from healthy ones and he's a cold calculator who feels nothing, certainly not for you whom he's only toying with". The other reason is I didn't approach astrology that way at all.

I began with signs, expanding into elements, axes, planets and, houses and then only started to appreciate aspects and even after that queried about others and ran into composite first (though that wouldn't be my organic choice, but such was the opinion of the astrologer who initiated me) and finally synastries.

To me the first elements I listed (from sign to house) are an indivisible whole, a series of mediums expressing one common symbolic. So to imply that a square amounts to tension without taking into account the fact it could happen between 2 mutable signs, eager to adapt and hop in a mess, sounds awfully reductive to me and potentially misleading when it comes to reading.

I mean the way I see it, it *is* a square only because it involves 2 signs of not obviously compatible elements and similar axis. And after all an opposition, which is so very often way more positive than negative (contrary to a conjunction which is just as hard an aspect as it can be a smooth one, and if you can't decide based on sign or house, then what? Aspects sure don't seem to be the be all end all of reading and relationships), is a square between 2 obviously compatible elements and a similar axis.
Aspects to me are kind of more sign based than planet based in their DNA.

I also don't see an aspect as having needs. Planets have needs expressing themselves through the signs they're in, aspects are only the avenue through which other needs and planets arrive to that pre-existing party.
So, yes I'd say your Venuses in oppositions, that one in particular (have spent a lot of lifetime in that Virgo-Pisces pond ) is probably what accounts for you reacting differently to your Pluto squares. Basically Pisces are adorbs but they don't enjoy work, especially in love which they tend to see as some dream that's supposed to sweep them off their feet and make them real and solve their identity issues without them having to do nothing more than have faith in its magic (massive cliche here, also, bit of experience too ) while Virgos feel pulling in work is one of many ways to show love.
To me it would be how you both handle the square based on your individual Venus' signs that would account for it being some form of issue rather than the square in the synastry.
I do agree that it has to be a combination, but it's not nearly presented that way in readings.

I do feel what you describe is more in tune with what astrologers go by. I would feel like protesting that the aspect would manifest itself over the planet only if said planet was expressing itself in a softer way (but then it could also leave the conversation altogether amounting to a form of resistance so...)

I think you should post that question in a separate thread and get experienced opinions. Something in me tells me your initial consideration is the right one, but I also feel that the reasons could feel wrong to me, if that makes sense.

posted August 19, 2019 04:01 AM            

That is what connects Venus ruling the 2nd to Venus ruling the 7th. You cannot attract externally (7th)that which you do not already believe is possible within yourself(2nd).

If an individual is not nice to themselves(2nd), they don't attract good company(7th). That is why we talk of taking time out to regroup(2nd) and build oneself up after a bad relationship break-up.

This is because we are intuitively aware that we don't want the individual to continue the momentum of neg self-esteem through to another relationship(again here we recognize the connection between the 2nd and 7th house)

We are always attracting people-whether we are aware of this or not.And these interactions are feedback as to what is really happening within us- Particularly those relationships that we term as "significant" etc.

So since Venus is self esteem, any planet/sign attached to Venus will show the nature of the self esteem. In that, what are we really thinking about ourselves on a consistent basis. Herein lies the rub.

For it is this consistency of "self-talk" or self esteem (2nd)that relationships fall in to reflect what we know about ourselves(7th)

That is the nature of 'attraction' essentially; meeting ourselves through the lense and reflective mode of others. The term "soul mate" is exactly this description. We see in another the "missing" parts of ourselves. Of course there is nothing "missing" per se /"incomplete". I am just following the conventional analogy.

So what happens when suspicious, distrustful and often very psychologically wounded Pluto is attached to Venus(self talk or esteem)? In that we mean; how do we esteem ourselves?What are we saying to ourselves constantly?What do we think of ourselves?

Are we gentle with ourselves or brutal?Are we kind or critical? Do we nurture healing or enable nervousness? This planet suggests the latter rather than the former in all 3 questions asked.

Pluto/Venus contacts typically tell themselves:"Watch your back or you will not see the betrayal coming. Nobody can be trusted.t It is not good to love without some form of "repayment". Everyone has a price. Nobody will love you if you show weakness.Stay vigilant of kindness that is cunning" etc. and on and on it goes.

This is not the esteem of a confident soul but a wounded one. For true love is not sensitive or "alert" to pain, it is consistent like rain and gravity; present to all whether they 'deserve' it or not.

What happens with such a soul is that there is an inherent nurturing of hurt feelings, fear of possible betrayal and enabling a wound to fester. It is an imprisoned life and not an empowered one. And so relationships outside of them reflect the turmoil within.

They don't attract or stay attracted to simplistic, mild or even tempered people(Taurus/Libra archetype). Not unless they have done the inner "reconditioning" to read love with new eyes

With the former, their argument almost always "there is no challenge". Of course this to mean that they are reflecting the chasm within themselves to be present outside of them. They unconsciously "look" for it. This is the false premise they work from.

From this false premsie however, they do attract wounded types, dodgy types, those with similar hurt issues, those who are defensive, those who are complex, those with a warped view on love i.e jealous, possessive etc. Then if unconcious of how they do this, they scream "why do I keep on attracting so much drama in my life?" or "This was the most intensely confrontational relationship I have ever had."

The addiction is to the drama. And the fault is with the self. So changing ones own beliefs of what is possible within you first BEFORE going out into the world.is necessary.And if not, one will attract the same ol' same ol' -without end.

So if one realizes that outer perspective(7th) stems from inner sponsored thoughts(2nd) etc. one will start to see that there is a direct link between the people one attracts or finds attractive (7th) with the first thoughts that one is always entertaining within oneself (1st).

Love doesn't hurt but a wound does. And if one is nurturing ones own nervousness with this aspect, one will be addicted to someone who will do the same i.e help them maintain the "status quo".

This pain can easily be confused with what one already knows to be true about oneself i.e that one is "wounded" or "broken"/"misunderstood" etc.And therefore to the self, this could be equivalent to a very familiar place to a point of calling what one feels for another to be "love".

If your life doesn't suit you anymore or you are not happy with recurring themes of pain in your world etc. change your thoughts about yourself Venus/Pluto,then you will change the outlook that you have on the world. And that goes for these folks too:

posted August 19, 2019 10:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
Venus is self esteem(2nd) and it is from this "self-esteem" (relationship with self)that we consistently respond to relations(relationship with broader "other").

That is what connects Venus ruling the 2nd to Venus ruling the 7th. You cannot attract externally (7th)that which you do not already believe is possible within yourself(2nd).

If an individual is not nice to themselves(2nd), they don't attract good company(7th). That is why we talk of taking time out to regroup(2nd) and build oneself up after a bad relationship break-up.

This is because we are intuitively aware that we don't want the individual to continue the momentum of neg self-esteem through to another relationship(again here we recognize the connection between the 2nd and 7th house)

We are always attracting people-whether we are aware of this or not.And these interactions are feedback as to what is really happening within us- Particularly those relationships that we term as "significant" etc.

So since Venus is self esteem, any planet/sign attached to Venus will show the nature of the self esteem. In that, what are we really thinking about ourselves on a consistent basis. Herein lies the rub.

For it is this consistency of "self-talk" or self esteem (2nd)that relationships fall in to reflect what we know about ourselves(7th)

That is the nature of 'attraction' essentially; meeting ourselves through the lense and reflective mode of others. The term "soul mate" is exactly this description. We see in another the "missing" parts of ourselves. Of course there is nothing "missing" per se /"incomplete". I am just following the conventional analogy.

So what happens when suspicious, distrustful and often very psychologically wounded Pluto is attached to Venus(self talk or esteem)? In that we mean; how do we esteem ourselves?What are we saying to ourselves constantly?What do we think of ourselves?

Are we gentle with ourselves or brutal?Are we kind or critical? Do we nurture healing or enable nervousness? This planet suggests the latter rather than the former in all 3 questions asked.

Pluto/Venus contacts typically tell themselves:"Watch your back or you will not see the betrayal coming. Nobody can be trusted.t It is not good to love without some form of "repayment". Everyone has a price. Nobody will love you if you show weakness.Stay vigilant of kindness that is cunning" etc. and on and on it goes.

This is not the esteem of a confident soul but a wounded one. For true love is not sensitive or "alert" to pain, it is consistent like rain and gravity; present to all whether they 'deserve' it or not.

What happens with such a soul is that there is an inherent nurturing of hurt feelings, fear of possible betrayal and enabling a wound to fester. It is an imprisoned life and not an empowered one. And so relationships outside of them reflect the turmoil within.

They don't attract or stay attracted to simplistic, mild or even tempered people(Taurus/Libra archetype). Not unless they have done the inner "reconditioning" to read love with new eyes

With the former, their argument almost always "there is no challenge". Of course this to mean that they are reflecting the chasm within themselves to be present outside of them. They unconsciously "look" for it. This is the false premise they work from.

From this false premsie however, they do attract wounded types, dodgy types, those with similar hurt issues, those who are defensive, those who are complex, those with a warped view on love i.e jealous, possessive etc. Then if unconcious of how they do this, they scream "why do I keep on attracting so much drama in my life?" or "This was the most intensely confrontational relationship I have ever had."

The addiction is to the drama. And the fault is with the self. So changing ones own beliefs of what is possible within you first BEFORE going out into the world.is necessary.And if not, one will attract the same ol' same ol' -without end.

So if one realizes that outer perspective(7th) stems from inner sponsored thoughts(2nd) etc. one will start to see that there is a direct link between the people one attracts or finds attractive (7th) with the first thoughts that one is always entertaining within oneself (1st).

Love doesn't hurt but a wound does. And if one is nurturing ones own nervousness with this aspect, one will be addicted to someone who will do the same i.e help them maintain the "status quo".

This pain can easily be confused with what one already knows to be true about oneself i.e that one is "wounded" or "broken"/"misunderstood" etc.And therefore to the self, this could be equivalent to a very familiar place to a point of calling what one feels for another to be "love".

If your life doesn't suit you anymore or you are not happy with recurring themes of pain in your world etc. change your thoughts about yourself Venus/Pluto,then you will change the outlook that you have on the world. And that goes for these folks too:

Venus/Saturn
Venus/Neptune
Venus/Uranus
Venus/Mars
Venus/Jupiter

---

This is incredibly informative to read. The way you synthesize astrological concepts, Aries23, is illuminating, truly.

Venus is actually in my second house along with Sun, Mercury, and Saturn, my chart ruler. And then Mars is in my 7th house. So I feel like what you're talking about with regards to self-esteem (a loaded 2nd house) and relationships (Mars in the 7th AND venus square pluto? I live for drama I guess!) is so pertinent and key. On top of that, I have chiron in the 8th, which potentiates these issues even more, I feel like.

I absolutely attracted someone who had the same emotional issues and hangups as me, with the same aspect to boot. It was like looking into a mirror. But the thing is I had become conscious of the issues this aspect brought and was trying to overcome the parts that I felt were holding me back. I was trying to embody the mantra of "be afraid and do it anyway." That is not where he was/is in his life, so really, it was like he represented me in the past. I understood but in a way, couldn't relate.

posted August 19, 2019 11:56 PM            

One concept is multiple "lives"(experiences of consciousness), and that this life - maybe the next one too, and the next, and the next, who knows - are mere vehicles in which we get to experience whatever reality(e.g. a Venus/Pluto theme), for who knows what Ultimate Reason. Under this view, the "lesson" of Venus/Pluto is as said - the Power in/of Attachment. Since squares are extremely harsh IMO, those domains(the planets) are what our selves have decided to face in this incarnation.

Anyhow, this brings up the question of "Ok? So can't I just say I've truly learned the lesson, and then be done with it?" No, because the lesson is experiencing a complete cycle of consciousness of Whatever(Venus/Pluto, for example) - to know what 'Venus/Pluto' for example feels like for an 'eternity'.

posted August 20, 2019 12:19 AM            

Thank you for that. It is highly appreciated.

"When he gave me attention, I went cold out of nowhere, but did all I could to reel him back in when I felt he was slipping out of my grip. It made me happy to hear him say things that came off as jealous.

This is the symptom of the Pluto complex.In that one keeps others mesmerized and within "grip" etc. Not because they "love" them per se. But because of the power they yield over them that makes the Pluto person feel safe and in "control".

The other person- when this is taken to extremes-can feel like a "prisoner" of love. In that the warden is Pluto and as much as Pluto believes that they have the "upper" hand in this dynamic, they don't. The irony is that it is Pluto who is the actual prisoner here.

The reason being that it is Pluto's sense of control over the other that sponsors this "security" in them etc.But this is an illusion. For it is the warden(not the "prisoner") who worries about breaches in security that keep them awake and in constant crisis mode.

In the same breath, it is Pluto(not so much the partner) who worries about the terms of conditions for love not being met i.e possible infedility, secrets, loss through death, abandonment etc. And this keeps Pluto in a constant crisis driven mode of "alertness" which is not only unnatural and exhausting.But also never secures love.

I demanded endless devotion. But only because I was able to reciprocate. I may be demanding but I don't demand more than I can give. And because Pluto is uncompromising, settling would destroy me, I know it would.

Examine this more intuitively and ask yourself if even one iota of that is possible? To be the total & complete object of attention for someone who has their own will/mind/choices and life?

It is also disempowering and not only to them but specifically to you. In that when you "demand" complete devotion from them, you then remove your own devotion from you. Who here then has the real power? You or them? And is the power given to a credible other deserved or well placed? Never. Heartbreak is inevitable here. It is law.

When you say that you can meet the person "head to head" etc. you are actually saying "I want to nurture your co-dependency so that you can nurture mine". That is not love because the essential ingredient of self-actualization is stunted.

Picture a Mother completely devoted to her child. Picture the child grow up and eventually assuming independence(as is natural). Now picture that same mother smothering the child to death. At which point did the love turn awry?

Is the mother to blame that they loved the child and made them the centre of their world?Are they then not justified (from that initial premise)to have acted in the manner described when the centre of their world sought to be independent of them? Was it not a form of "self-defense"?

Is the "fickle" child at fault for being unable to share their mother's unwavering devotion toe to toe? Were they "selfish" to insist upon their own independence?This despite the "awesome" love they received from their caregiver?

Pluto can have the chart-owner believe that "true" love is exclusive. Its not. That it is "rare". Its not. And that the other needs to show complete submission/devotion to Pluto to "deserve" love i.e give the Pluto person the proverbial "keys to the kingdom" etc.They really cannot.

Love is freedom. Pluto needs to filter this into their experience. Not necessarily freedom of the other person in the sense of "anarchy" that Pluto imagines will come back to threaten or hurt them directly /indirectly somehow.

This freedom is for YOU Pluto. Freedom to sleep at night( not fussing about where your spouse is or whom they are dreaming about).Freedom to be secure about how you love(not worrying about whether you hear "I love you too" back or that you are the "best" they've ever had etc.)

The freedom to live and let die(and not confuse "loss" of another to be the switching off of your own world). Their story ends as A PART of your life. But their story is still APART from your life.

That is true gift of Pluto/Venus. And perhaps Celine Dion sang it wrong when she said " ...Sometimes I am frightened but I am ready to learn of the power of love".As if to imply that the "power" for love to be great, must come from the uncertain "out there" etc.

Instead, what she should have sung was " Sometimes I am frightened but I am ready to learn of the power of Self-Love"? Because that is essentially what it is.

It is taking yourself back to yourself and not letting another be in charge of how you feel. Not ever. Herein is imo "the last frontier" of Venus/Pluto. Will you lead the way?

posted August 29, 2019 12:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
@mourningfire

Thank you for that. It is highly appreciated.

[b]"When he gave me attention, I went cold out of nowhere, but did all I could to reel him back in when I felt he was slipping out of my grip. It made me happy to hear him say things that came off as jealous.

This is the symptom of the Pluto complex.In that one keeps others mesmerized and within "grip" etc. Not because they "love" them per se. But because of the power they yield over them that makes the Pluto person feel safe and in "control".

The other person- when this is taken to extremes-can feel like a "prisoner" of love. In that the warden is Pluto and as much as Pluto believes that they have the "upper" hand in this dynamic, they don't. The irony is that it is Pluto who is the actual prisoner here.

The reason being that it is Pluto's sense of control over the other that sponsors this "security" in them etc.But this is an illusion. For it is the warden(not the "prisoner") who worries about breaches in security that keep them awake and in constant crisis mode.

In the same breath, it is Pluto(not so much the partner) who worries about the terms of conditions for love not being met i.e possible infedility, secrets, loss through death, abandonment etc. And this keeps Pluto in a constant crisis driven mode of "alertness" which is not only unnatural and exhausting.But also never secures love.

I demanded endless devotion. But only because I was able to reciprocate. I may be demanding but I don't demand more than I can give. And because Pluto is uncompromising, settling would destroy me, I know it would.

Examine this more intuitively and ask yourself if even one iota of that is possible? To be the total & complete object of attention for someone who has their own will/mind/choices and life?

It is also disempowering and not only to them but specifically to you. In that when you "demand" complete devotion from them, you then remove your own devotion from you. Who here then has the real power? You or them? And is the power given to a credible other deserved or well placed? Never. Heartbreak is inevitable here. It is law.

When you say that you can meet the person "head to head" etc. you are actually saying "I want to nurture your co-dependency so that you can nurture mine". That is not love because the essential ingredient of self-actualization is stunted.

Picture a Mother completely devoted to her child. Picture the child grow up and eventually assuming independence(as is natural). Now picture that same mother smothering the child to death. At which point did the love turn awry?

Is the mother to blame that they loved the child and made them the centre of their world?Are they then not justified (from that initial premise)to have acted in the manner described when the centre of their world sought to be independent of them? Was it not a form of "self-defense"?

Is the "fickle" child at fault for being unable to share their mother's unwavering devotion toe to toe? Were they "selfish" to insist upon their own independence?This despite the "awesome" love they received from their caregiver?

Pluto can have the chart-owner believe that "true" love is exclusive. Its not. That it is "rare". Its not. And that the other needs to show complete submission/devotion to Pluto to "deserve" love i.e give the Pluto person the proverbial "keys to the kingdom" etc.They really cannot.

Love is freedom. Pluto needs to filter this into their experience. Not necessarily freedom of the other person in the sense of "anarchy" that Pluto imagines will come back to threaten or hurt them directly /indirectly somehow.

This freedom is for YOU Pluto. Freedom to sleep at night( not fussing about where your spouse is or whom they are dreaming about).Freedom to be secure about how you love(not worrying about whether you hear "I love you too" back or that you are the "best" they've ever had etc.)

The freedom to live and let die(and not confuse "loss" of another to be the switching off of your own world). Their story ends as A PART of your life. But their story is still APART from your life.

That is true gift of Pluto/Venus. And perhaps Celine Dion sang it wrong when she said " ...Sometimes I am frightened but I am ready to learn of the power of love".As if to imply that the "power" for love to be great, must come from the uncertain "out there" etc.

Instead, what she should have sung was " Sometimes I am frightened but I am ready to learn of the power of Self-Love"? Because that is essentially what it is.

It is taking yourself back to yourself and not letting another be in charge of how you feel. Not ever. Herein is imo "the last frontier" of Venus/Pluto. Will you lead the way?

[/B]

---

Thank you for taking the time to write something as brutally honest and beautiful as this, Aries23. Honestly, I wasn't willing/ready to read this when you originally posted it lol.

Deep down, maybe I know everything you've said to be true. Still, it is SO hard to rise above the doom and gloom that Pluto brings. This pain... it's mine forever, I can't see myself ever getting over this. I've been so emphatically miserable and it's only gotten worse with time. You'd think the opposite to be true but time doesn't heal anything anyway. It makes the pain less raw and, bc it goes on, it renders the event a memory. But the hurt never goes away, it just doesn't.

"Freedom to sleep at night( not fussing about where your spouse is or whom they are dreaming about)" This is so funny to read as a venus in pisces. A subconscious betrayal?? Not on my watch lmaoo

posted August 29, 2019 12:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
@mourningfire

Thank you for that. It is highly appreciated.

[b]"When he gave me attention, I went cold out of nowhere, but did all I could to reel him back in when I felt he was slipping out of my grip. It made me happy to hear him say things that came off as jealous.

This is the symptom of the Pluto complex.In that one keeps others mesmerized and within "grip" etc. Not because they "love" them per se. But because of the power they yield over them that makes the Pluto person feel safe and in "control".

The other person- when this is taken to extremes-can feel like a "prisoner" of love. In that the warden is Pluto and as much as Pluto believes that they have the "upper" hand in this dynamic, they don't. The irony is that it is Pluto who is the actual prisoner here.

The reason being that it is Pluto's sense of control over the other that sponsors this "security" in them etc.But this is an illusion. For it is the warden(not the "prisoner") who worries about breaches in security that keep them awake and in constant crisis mode.

In the same breath, it is Pluto(not so much the partner) who worries about the terms of conditions for love not being met i.e possible infedility, secrets, loss through death, abandonment etc. And this keeps Pluto in a constant crisis driven mode of "alertness" which is not only unnatural and exhausting.But also never secures love.

I demanded endless devotion. But only because I was able to reciprocate. I may be demanding but I don't demand more than I can give. And because Pluto is uncompromising, settling would destroy me, I know it would.

Examine this more intuitively and ask yourself if even one iota of that is possible? To be the total & complete object of attention for someone who has their own will/mind/choices and life?

It is also disempowering and not only to them but specifically to you. In that when you "demand" complete devotion from them, you then remove your own devotion from you. Who here then has the real power? You or them? And is the power given to a credible other deserved or well placed? Never. Heartbreak is inevitable here. It is law.

When you say that you can meet the person "head to head" etc. you are actually saying "I want to nurture your co-dependency so that you can nurture mine". That is not love because the essential ingredient of self-actualization is stunted.

Picture a Mother completely devoted to her child. Picture the child grow up and eventually assuming independence(as is natural). Now picture that same mother smothering the child to death. At which point did the love turn awry?

Is the mother to blame that they loved the child and made them the centre of their world?Are they then not justified (from that initial premise)to have acted in the manner described when the centre of their world sought to be independent of them? Was it not a form of "self-defense"?

Is the "fickle" child at fault for being unable to share their mother's unwavering devotion toe to toe? Were they "selfish" to insist upon their own independence?This despite the "awesome" love they received from their caregiver?

Pluto can have the chart-owner believe that "true" love is exclusive. Its not. That it is "rare". Its not. And that the other needs to show complete submission/devotion to Pluto to "deserve" love i.e give the Pluto person the proverbial "keys to the kingdom" etc.They really cannot.

Love is freedom. Pluto needs to filter this into their experience. Not necessarily freedom of the other person in the sense of "anarchy" that Pluto imagines will come back to threaten or hurt them directly /indirectly somehow.

This freedom is for YOU Pluto. Freedom to sleep at night( not fussing about where your spouse is or whom they are dreaming about).Freedom to be secure about how you love(not worrying about whether you hear "I love you too" back or that you are the "best" they've ever had etc.)

The freedom to live and let die(and not confuse "loss" of another to be the switching off of your own world). Their story ends as A PART of your life. But their story is still APART from your life.

That is true gift of Pluto/Venus. And perhaps Celine Dion sang it wrong when she said " ...Sometimes I am frightened but I am ready to learn of the power of love".As if to imply that the "power" for love to be great, must come from the uncertain "out there" etc.

Instead, what she should have sung was " Sometimes I am frightened but I am ready to learn of the power of Self-Love"? Because that is essentially what it is.

It is taking yourself back to yourself and not letting another be in charge of how you feel. Not ever. Herein is imo "the last frontier" of Venus/Pluto. Will you lead the way?

[/B]

---

Thank you for taking the time to write out smth as brutally honest and beautiful as this. I honestly was not willing/ready to read it when you had originally posted it.

Maybe deep down I know everything you said to be true. Still, it's SO hard to escape the doom and gloom that Pluto brings. I've been so emphatically miserable and time has just made things worse. You'd think the opposite to be true but I've never bought this idea that time heals all wounds anyway. Time makes the hurt less raw and, bc it goes on, it renders the event a memory but it doesn't heal anything. This pain is mine forever, I don't see myself ever getting over this. I just need to find a way to accept that fact, I guess.

"Freedom to sleep at night( not fussing about where your spouse is or whom they are dreaming about)" This is hilarious to read as a venus in pisces. A subconscious betrayal?? Not on my watch!

posted August 29, 2019 10:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
Venus is self esteem(2nd) and it is from this "self-esteem" (relationship with self)that we consistently respond to relations(relationship with broader "other").

That is what connects Venus ruling the 2nd to Venus ruling the 7th. You cannot attract externally (7th)that which you do not already believe is possible within yourself(2nd).

If an individual is not nice to themselves(2nd), they don't attract good company(7th). That is why we talk of taking time out to regroup(2nd) and build oneself up after a bad relationship break-up.

This is because we are intuitively aware that we don't want the individual to continue the momentum of neg self-esteem through to another relationship(again here we recognize the connection between the 2nd and 7th house)

We are always attracting people-whether we are aware of this or not.And these interactions are feedback as to what is really happening within us- Particularly those relationships that we term as "significant" etc.

So since Venus is self esteem, any planet/sign attached to Venus will show the nature of the self esteem. In that, what are we really thinking about ourselves on a consistent basis. Herein lies the rub.

For it is this consistency of "self-talk" or self esteem (2nd)that relationships fall in to reflect what we know about ourselves(7th)

That is the nature of 'attraction' essentially; meeting ourselves through the lense and reflective mode of others. The term "soul mate" is exactly this description. We see in another the "missing" parts of ourselves. Of course there is nothing "missing" per se /"incomplete". I am just following the conventional analogy.

So what happens when suspicious, distrustful and often very psychologically wounded Pluto is attached to Venus(self talk or esteem)? In that we mean; how do we esteem ourselves?What are we saying to ourselves constantly?What do we think of ourselves?

Are we gentle with ourselves or brutal?Are we kind or critical? Do we nurture healing or enable nervousness? This planet suggests the latter rather than the former in all 3 questions asked.

Pluto/Venus contacts typically tell themselves:"Watch your back or you will not see the betrayal coming. Nobody can be trusted.t It is not good to love without some form of "repayment". Everyone has a price. Nobody will love you if you show weakness.Stay vigilant of kindness that is cunning" etc. and on and on it goes.

This is not the esteem of a confident soul but a wounded one. For true love is not sensitive or "alert" to pain, it is consistent like rain and gravity; present to all whether they 'deserve' it or not.

What happens with such a soul is that there is an inherent nurturing of hurt feelings, fear of possible betrayal and enabling a wound to fester. It is an imprisoned life and not an empowered one. And so relationships outside of them reflect the turmoil within.

They don't attract or stay attracted to simplistic, mild or even tempered people(Taurus/Libra archetype). Not unless they have done the inner "reconditioning" to read love with new eyes

With the former, their argument almost always "there is no challenge". Of course this to mean that they are reflecting the chasm within themselves to be present outside of them. They unconsciously "look" for it. This is the false premise they work from.

From this false premsie however, they do attract wounded types, dodgy types, those with similar hurt issues, those who are defensive, those who are complex, those with a warped view on love i.e jealous, possessive etc. Then if unconcious of how they do this, they scream "why do I keep on attracting so much drama in my life?" or "This was the most intensely confrontational relationship I have ever had."

The addiction is to the drama. And the fault is with the self. So changing ones own beliefs of what is possible within you first BEFORE going out into the world.is necessary.And if not, one will attract the same ol' same ol' -without end.

So if one realizes that outer perspective(7th) stems from inner sponsored thoughts(2nd) etc. one will start to see that there is a direct link between the people one attracts or finds attractive (7th) with the first thoughts that one is always entertaining within oneself (1st).

Love doesn't hurt but a wound does. And if one is nurturing ones own nervousness with this aspect, one will be addicted to someone who will do the same i.e help them maintain the "status quo".

This pain can easily be confused with what one already knows to be true about oneself i.e that one is "wounded" or "broken"/"misunderstood" etc.And therefore to the self, this could be equivalent to a very familiar place to a point of calling what one feels for another to be "love".

If your life doesn't suit you anymore or you are not happy with recurring themes of pain in your world etc. change your thoughts about yourself Venus/Pluto,then you will change the outlook that you have on the world. And that goes for these folks too:

Venus/Saturn
Venus/Neptune
Venus/Uranus
Venus/Mars
Venus/Jupiter

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As someone with Venus/Pluto square, Venus/Saturn trine and Venus/Neptune quincunx, all within 0.12 degrees, this is the gospel. This should be pinned as the most accurate interpretation of this aspect I've ever read!

I'm 33 years old and I am still learning how to cope. My intimate relationships (and some friendships) have all been train wrecks, in some shape or form. It's like a giant blind spot in my life I can't seem to make right.

posted August 30, 2019 03:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mourningfire:
Thank you for taking the time to write out smth as brutally honest and beautiful as this. I honestly was not willing/ready to read it when you had originally posted it.

Maybe deep down I know everything you said to be true. Still, it's SO hard to escape the doom and gloom that Pluto brings. I've been so emphatically miserable and time has just made things worse. You'd think the opposite to be true but I've never bought this idea that time heals all wounds anyway. Time makes the hurt less raw and, bc it goes on, it renders the event a memory but it doesn't heal anything. This pain is mine forever, I don't see myself ever getting over this. I just need to find a way to accept that fact, I guess.

"Freedom to sleep at night( not fussing about where your spouse is or whom they are dreaming about)" This is hilarious to read as a venus in pisces. A subconscious betrayal?? Not on my watch!

"Picture a Mother completely devoted to her child. Picture the child grow up and eventually assuming independence(as is natural). Now picture that same mother smothering the child to death. At which point did the love turn awry?" Wow, this speaks to my soul. I've been thinking about this exact dynamic in my own life. Love gone awry, a selfish love. Once they've reached that point in their relationship, it's impossible, isn't it? Impossible for the mother to not feel betrayed by the child and for the child to not resent her. There's this brilliant movie called The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant and in it there's a line I think about all the time: "People are made to need each other but haven't learned to live together." She's talking about her failed marriage but it echoes something I've always believed. The closer you are with someone, the more complicated and twisted the relationship. The more distance one keeps, the simpler and "easier" it is to maintain. The latter is unsatisfying. How does one bridge the gap between keeping their distance to avoid being hurt/vulnerable and making the other person their world? Self-love? Idk.
Why does it feel like I'm cheating myself and the other person by not giving them everything I have

---

Profound leading edge question there.

Pluto is linked to death. So its no wonder that you feel you have to give your ALL. In a way, that is really like saying "all or nothing".

This reminds me of Mandela(Moon parralel Pluto,Moon in Scorpio) who was willing to be imprisoned for his ideals. Scorpio/Pluto energy has a very "I am willing to die for this" attitude to things..

I don't suggest that you "change". You can't.What I suggest happen is that you find a release point for this energy that is not exclusively bound to your love life.

I always thought that Mars-Pluto needs to find vigorous extra curricula activities outside the home or the energy they carry could prove destructive.

Now I think I will extend this to Sun /Moon/Merc /Venu /Jup/Sat/Ur to Pluto. One must find a creative passion or a hobby to focus all their attention on.

If not something like the above, then perhaps a cause or some form of activism that is close to the heart. Then go all in there.Here the energy may find release.

The reasoning behind this is that when you do enter love relations, tha spouse will not become the object of absolute attention. Because I really don't think that this should be where you give your "ALL".

Would you rather be the Pluto energy that is arrested at a rally for a cause that will revolutionize societal restrictions and leave a legacy? Or would you rather be that boy/girl known the world over for chasing after your partner on "Cheaters"?

In both cases, you give your "ALL". And perhaps holding back is not always possible. True. But the former gives your magnanimous love an avenue to change inequalities on a mass scale. Massive impact

Whilst the latter gives you an avenue to alter your blood pressure and heart rate to near fatal status. Here you literally can very well die all in the name of your warped view of "love".

Pluto is power. That is why I advocate that you use the power to self-love than giving it away. Use it to empower others than enslave yourself.

The choice really is yours as romantic love will never fill your bottom-less cup of unquenchable needs. Not in this life.

posted August 30, 2019 04:19 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by margym0o:
As someone with Venus/Pluto square, Venus/Saturn trine and Venus/Neptune quincunx, all within 0.12 degrees, this is the gospel. This should be pinned as the most accurate interpretation of this aspect I've ever read!

I'm 33 years old and I am still learning how to cope. My intimate relationships (and some friendships) have all been train wrecks, in some shape or form. It's like a giant blind spot in my life I can't seem to make right.

It seems like an even bigger paradox where subconsciously you attract a partner much like yourself which drives you insane, all the while craving that deep understanding another more "selfless and empathetic" person may give you (as opposed to the cold, manipulative Plutonic approach), yet you push these people away because "selfless and empathetic" typically translates into "passive and timid" which isn't a big enough challenge. Awful, isn't it? You desire that real, true love and yet it feels so tragically out of reach.

---

Love is like air to me. It is never out of reach. But it can certainly feel out of reach for someone who locks themselves in the basement and gets a "fix" out the dust and closed spaces they insist on surrounding themselves with.

It is also always "out of reach" to people who "look" for it. In that the premise being that it is something that has to be "found" in the great "out there". Then starting from "in here".

You have to change the perspective through which you look into. If you are looking at the people who are loving towards you as "boring". Your perspective is warped.

If you are looking towards people who get your heart rate up through drama, emotional games or power-plays etc.Your perspective is warped.

First, stop, centre yourself and ask if this feeling you feel serves to enhance you for the better long term. Or is a contextually driven and short term in effect?

The drama is attractive and thrilling. I know. I have Venus in Scorpio/Pluto in Scorpio in house 7 with Venus/Mars midpoint on Pluto.

The theatrics feel so gratifying because its chemicals in the brain being released that are akin to drug binges and "highs". But you already know the inevitable "lows" that accompany those moments.

Fall in love as many times as you want & regurgitate those experiences of pain and ecstasy as next-door neighborss. Or decide that the two should not even exist in the same country.

You want a "rush" so bad? Redirect it out of your love life and take up sky diving, snow boarding or ghost-hunting as a hobby.

This change in "where" you focus your attention, will give your love/friendships space to breathe. It could be that you are just too focused on them or they are too focused on you.

There is this B-grade movie I watched a while back when younger called "No one would tell". The boy there who ends up killing his girlfriend definitely has Pluto themes strong in his character.

He focuses ALL his attention on the girl he claims to "love" .Then kills her because she wants to break off from him. His motive? "If I can't have her. No one else will".And that's the Pluto theme of taking their lovers down into the underworld.

Now just imagine if that same energy could have been used and focused on being the best athlete?Which in this instance the character was already on his way to becoming. The story would have had a different ending.

posted September 01, 2019 09:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
Profound leading edge question there.

Pluto is linked to death. So its no wonder that you feel you have to give your ALL. In a way, that is really like saying "all or nothing".

This reminds me of Mandela(Moon parralel Pluto,Moon in Scorpio) who was willing to be imprisoned for his ideals. Scorpio/Pluto energy has a very "I am willing to die for this" attitude to things..

I don't suggest that you "change". You can't.What I suggest happen is that you find a release point for this energy that is not exclusively bound to your love life.

I always thought that Mars-Pluto needs to find vigorous extra curricula activities outside the home or the energy they carry could prove destructive.

Now I think I will extend this to Sun /Moon/Merc /Venu /Jup/Sat/Ur to Pluto. One must find a creative passion or a hobby to focus all their attention on.

If not something like the above, then perhaps a cause or some form of activism that is close to the heart. Then go all in there.Here the energy may find release.

The reasoning behind this is that when you do enter love relations, tha spouse will not become the object of absolute attention. Because I really don't think that this should be where you give your "ALL".

Would you rather be the Pluto energy that is arrested at a rally for a cause that will revolutionize societal restrictions and leave a legacy? Or would you rather be that boy/girl known the world over for chasing after your partner on "Cheaters"?

In both cases, you give your "ALL". And perhaps holding back is not always possible. True. But the former gives your magnanimous love an avenue to change inequalities on a mass scale. Massive impact

Whilst the latter gives you an avenue to alter your blood pressure and heart rate to near fatal status. Here you literally can very well die all in the name of your warped view of "love".

Pluto is power. That is why I advocate that you use the power to self-love than giving it away. Use it to empower others than enslave yourself.

The choice really is yours as romantic love will never fill your bottom-less cup of unquenchable needs. Not in this life.

Not without confusing it with drama and trauma-as often is the case with this aspect.Then getting momentary "highs" from that and endorsing insecurities to continue in that warped path in search of what ends up mostly being destructive "love".

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On top of venus-pluto, I have sun-pluto, mercury-pluto and moon-pluto too (if u count a quindecile i guess) and I do totally agree about applying oneself to a cause or finding a creative or physical outlet but still, it's not the same. I think being in a relationship forces you to discover things about yourself. The tension, nuances, and overall dynamic that's developed with someone you're romantically with (or even if it's a friendship, basically any relationship) can't really be matched, to the point where alternatives, no matter if they're a passion, seem almost passive in comparison. That sounds kind of awful to say though, I mean there are so many more important things out there to spill my energy into but I truly do believe that it wouldn't be enough on same level. But the bottomless pit part is so accurate, it'd probably benefit me to try distributing my energy better and i don't even know it.

This reminds me of an article or maybe it was an excerpt, idk but basically it was talking about the power of communities and other people.Individuals found the strength and clarity to change their lives because they came in contact with people who showed them and made them believe that it was necessary and possible. One woman was finally able to leave her husband after discussing it with a cleaning crew she was a part of. Transformation through others; "change occurs among other people."
Maybe that's what what I'm trying to reach with relationships. They're a catalyst. They expose my blindspots and force me to better myself. It's certainly not healthy and productive though, not like the stories that article gave examples of. I really don't know. Much to think about!

posted September 02, 2019 01:52 AM            

Its a beautiful placement in that Plutonic Venuses really do looooooove with all their heart if there is heavy pisces involved too in addition to a plutonic venus, these are the most romantic folks you will ever come across. Some of the most romantic singers/song writers have this mix and when they sing you can feel the intensity of how hard they love and the ability to love like that is rare and a gift but is a hard journey to walk too....

They are here to love with all their freaking heart all the way, their capacity to love is so big but their stories are more about taking that risk of loving all the way and loving after it ends, that everlasting type of love that can survive without contact that will always live on inside of you, timeless.

Its crazy but plutonic venuses to me is about love after death, the power of love and how it can live on after death, whether the death of the relationship or bc the other died literally. Its not about marriage (7H) or cohabiting (6H), its about love after loss/death but ironically that is how you know is real when the love doesn't die even after the death of the relationship and that is the gift of 8H/pluto venus. They experience without a trace of a doubt what true love is but it comes with the price of loss.

-The thoughts and life experiences of a venus conjunct mars in the 8H woman trine Neptune, sextile Pluto, with moon in pisces square neptune near the AC.

posted September 02, 2019 02:23 AM            

The paradox of a plutonic venuses is that they love the hardest but can't be with who they love the hardest. Either bc of personal choice, a plutonic venus must create a crisis in a relationship or test the relationship which will then lead to the end of the relationship. Or life makes sure the plutonic venus cannot be with their true heart's desire bc life circumstances are set up against this or bc of their own undoing (brought by testing the relationship or by creating a crisis that leads to the destruction of the relationship).

Its a bit of a cursed placement bc it loves the hardest but it cannot truly be with who they love the most and it leads to self-sabotaging the relationship through tests or creating a crisis. Plutonic venuses thrive on crisis and disruption and think "lets see if you can handle this curve ball or crisis, lets see if you stick around and if you are truly worth it." Its insane bc people want to feel secure in a relationship so creating a crisis like that and tests of that nature do the exact opposite of that! This is why venus in scorpio is in detriment, it operates in a contradictory manner of how it should for a relationship to last. Plutonic venuses feel insecure in love relationships bc they love so hard that they feel very vulnerable. They try to get that sense of security by creating a crisis or chaos and seeing if person stays put through the storm. Some shut down and don't take chances and just focus on survival and protecting themselves, or they are full on loving you. I feel these are the three switches that show up with plutonic venuses folks which are all extremes and not conducive to lasting relationships but brief and intense ones. If the relationship lasts there is probably a lot of ups and downs and is very intense with many disruptions and lots of shadow work that needs to get done by both.

Its a wreck!

If uranus is exalted in Scorpio, apply this to Venus in scorpio or a plutonic venus and you get a Beautiful Disaster or a beautiful love story that seems otherworldly that ends in disaster and destruction like Romeo and Juliet, the ultimate example.

posted September 07, 2019 11:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
In a nutshell.......

The paradox of a plutonic venuses is that they love the hardest but can't be with who they love the hardest. Either bc of personal choice, a plutonic venus must create a crisis in a relationship or test the relationship which will then lead to the end of the relationship. Or life makes sure the plutonic venus cannot be with their true heart's desire bc life circumstances are set up against this or bc of their own undoing (brought by testing the relationship or by creating a crisis that leads to the destruction of the relationship).

Its a bit of a cursed placement bc it loves the hardest but it cannot truly be with who they love the most and it leads to self-sabotaging the relationship through tests or creating a crisis. Plutonic venuses thrive on crisis and disruption and think "lets see if you can handle this curve ball or crisis, lets see if you stick around and if you are truly worth it." Its insane bc people want to feel secure in a relationship so creating a crisis like that and tests of that nature do the exact opposite of that! This is why venus in scorpio is in detriment, it operates in a contradictory manner of how it should for a relationship to last. Plutonic venuses feel insecure in love relationships bc they love so hard that they feel very vulnerable. They try to get that sense of security by creating a crisis or chaos and seeing if person stays put through the storm. Some shut down and don't take chances and just focus on survival and protecting themselves, or they are full on loving you. I feel these are the three switches that show up with plutonic venuses folks which are all extremes and not conducive to lasting relationships but brief and intense ones. If the relationship lasts there is probably a lot of ups and downs and is very intense with many disruptions and lots of shadow work that needs to get done by both.

Its a wreck!

If uranus is exalted in Scorpio, apply this to Venus in scorpio or a plutonic venus and you get a Beautiful Disaster or a beautiful love story that seems otherworldly that ends in disaster and destruction like Romeo and Juliet, the ultimate example.

In the discovery chart of pluto there is Thebes conjunct Pyramus afterall.

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Wow, hypatia, everything you wrote in both posts resonates so deeply. I told him I loved him in a soul way (this after we broke up, after him telling me he doesn't have feelings for me anymore). It's exactly how you describe it. Love is accepting loss.

posted September 08, 2019 05:41 AM            

Maybe that's what what I'm trying to reach with relationships. They're a catalyst. They expose my blindspots and force me to better myself. It's certainly not healthy and productive though, not like the stories that article gave examples of. I really don't know. Much to think about!
[/QUOTE]

Yes.I like that interpretation of transformative change through others. And that could exactly be what can also occur with Pluto-Venus

The change you spoke of however is one that is positive for.the individual. And my concern would be that if change is through others, the change could just as likely be negative i.e joining a gang or caving in to immense peer pressure etc.

So in the end it all still comes back to working ones self esteem(2nd). Because for an individual to effect positive change in their life, they have to be at a point where they think highly of themselves to put themselves first. Only then can they listen to advice that affirms that love of self and be positively changed by others.

On your point that you feel like "diversifying" your attention will not be satisfying. Not without applying that attention to the relationship etc. I agree.

I also think that that is why Scorpio Venus or Pluto contacts to Venus tend to have love relationships as their downfall or Achilles heel.

Death(as I earlier stated) tends to form part and parcel of their attractions. Much like Gollums obsession with the ring of power in Lord of the Rings. And it ultimately lead to his death.

But I am weary of going out like that. Being that dude who gets arrested for killing their spouse or being involved in a bloody love triangle that ends up behind steel bars etc. either because I acted impulsively or my lover did etc.

I used to wonder why I love grpup engagementss anr involvements that are intimate so much i.e support groups, work groups or activist grpups and meeting etc. And that's because I feel transformed and can also transform through them.Thank you for that "aha" moment

I could argue that people with Venus/Uranus in Scorpio,Libra/Aqua in 8th, Ven/Uran in 8th or Pluto in 11th or 7th can feel profoundly changed by a group.

I have Uranus in 8th and Pluto in 7th too. So this makes sense.

I think the problem occurs when Scorpio sort of expects the "group" to be just 1 person. This especially when Pluto aspects Venus. Its like expecting the partner to be your "everything" etc.