posted June 11, 2020 01:08 PM            

I've been mostly using whole signs to interpret my natal chart since I was told by professional astrologers that they give a "better" aerial view of my astro makeup.

But I struggle especially with my Can Venus. It's my only water element and I have a lot of problems understanding/expressing it so I feel like the 12-H descriptions fit my situation a bit better.

I didn't even realize that it fell in the 11-H until I selected Placidus by accident yesterday and then a light bulb went off and suddenly I felt a glimmer of hope that maybe my traumatized Venus had some hope after all...seeing how the 11-H is representative of friends/groups so if I pushed myself to get out there and start to be more social and connect with others, then maybe that'll bring some healing to my Venus?

So I don't know....what house system do you all mostly rely on and how do you think I should interpret my Venus?

Btw the aspects my Venus makes are as follows:

Venus semi-sq Sun, Mercury (Tau)
Venus inconjunct Jup, Uranus (Sag)
Venus trine Saturn, Pluto (Lib)
Venus opp. Neptune (Sag)
Venus semi-sextile AC (Leo)
Venus sextile MC (Tau)

posted June 12, 2020 02:52 PM            

If everyone used the 'whole' system all our charts would start at 0° Aries and birth time essentially ignored with the Asc making a mark in an irrelevant house. If what you meant was 'whole sign' houses, just because something is of ancient original doesn't make it more accurate.

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Soul Stars Astrology by The Declinations Guy
Expert birth chart rectification

posted June 12, 2020 06:51 PM            

For example, if you have Venus Taurus 5+, your Ascendant is Taurus 10+, and Mercury is 20+ Taurus, then the CUSP of the FIRST House is 0-Taurus.

The ASCENDANT 10+ Taurus is found inside the 1st House, along with Venus and Mercury.

The Cusp of the 2nd House would be 0-Gemini.
The Cusp of the 3rd House would be 0-Cancer,
etc around the wheel.

The MC could be found anywhere between 9th House to 11th.

Like someone said, it's an 'aerial' view of which planets are together in same sign.

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Although, there IS a drawing calculation available for Whole House starting at 0-Aries!

posted June 13, 2020 01:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
If everyone used the 'whole' system all our charts would start at 0° Aries and birth time essentially ignored with the Asc making a mark in an irrelevant house. If what you meant was 'whole sign' houses, just because something is of ancient original doesn't make it more accurate.

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I don't really get how you come to the conclusion that charts would 'start' with 0 Aries? It still 'start' with Ascendant.

And it's simply not true that birth time is ignored. The Asc/Dsc and IC/MC axis still exists, they're just 'floating' inside the signs and mark a natal focal point rather than a house cut-off point - still a significant point and its power is not in any way disregarded.

The logic is simply that a Venus at 5 Gemini is in 1st house even if Ascendant is at 15 Gemini.

posted June 13, 2020 01:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mirage29:
The MC could be found anywhere between 9th House to 11th.

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posted June 13, 2020 11:41 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mirage29:
Kannon, the Whole House system makes 0-degrees of each zodiac sign the house cusp.
Starts with the zodiac sign of the Ascendant, then works its way around the wheel.

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Yes, I'm aware of that.

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Soul Stars Astrology by The Declinations Guy
Expert birth chart rectification

posted June 13, 2020 11:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad-monad:
People keep saying this, but my MC is in 29th degree of 8th house

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Exactly! …
I was going to 'include' H8, but didn't.

Depends on geography.
Much-higher or much-lower latitudes leave humongous house-space in Placidus, Koch, and probably other.

There IS a Whole House {0-Aries}
as a choice for calculating.
Astrodienst, www.astro.com

Equal Houses,
like someone mentioned,
takes the Ascendant "number" DEGREE,
and makes that number the CUSP degree for EACH Zodiac Sign of the wheel.

If your Ascendant is 19 Virgo,
then EACH House Cusp would have "19" degrees.
ASC/1st is 19 Virgo
2nd House, 19 Libra,
etc.
You would find 'MC' and 'IC' degrees "within" the zodiac it belongs to.

Equal Houses {MC}
This choice creates House Cusps based on the degree of your Midheaven.

I just tried it, and it draws my ASC a same degree as my Equatorial Ascendant! haha.
Lets CONFUSE people. mwahhhh hahahahah

posted June 13, 2020 11:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad-monad:
I don't really get how you come to the conclusion that charts would 'start' with 0 Aries? It still 'start' with Ascendant.

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The nature of 'whole' houses is that the houses start with the first degree of Aries. The options in Astrodienst make this plain before you even select it:

quote:

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And it's simply not true that birth time is ignored.

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As to house construction it is, which is what we're talking about here. Both time of birth and locality are ignored as to house construction. That is the nature of the 'whole' system, that it does not draw house lines in relation to the local birth place and in mundi rotation, but arbitrarily substitutes the 12-sign divisions of the ecliptic. My chart with Asc 17° Virgo:

http://kannonmcafee.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/kannon-whole-house-chart.png

As I have stated before over and over, 'whole' is not a house system, but a workaround to avoid the sticky in mundi rotation mathematics of houses. It is for those who favor simplifying the complexity of the cosmos, dumbing it down to their level of (flat dimensional) understanding -- reductionisms rather than actually learning the astrological complexity/math that goes into the objective of house construction. That objective is to construct a base-12 division of the sky for each particular birth horoscope based on the unique time-location stamp of that horoscope.

To use the 12 divisions of the ecliptic as a substitute for this is a cop-out and does not form a real house system. Of all the so-called house systems, this one is the fraud and has no astrological virtues at all.

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Soul Stars Astrology by The Declinations Guy
Expert birth chart rectification

posted June 13, 2020 02:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
The nature of 'whole' houses is that the houses start with the first degree of Aries. The options in Astrodienst make this plain before you even select it:

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But that's cherry-picking. Right above it you have the 'whole signs' option, which uses the sign of the Ascendant as house 1, and of course that is the one people most often refer to when they say 'whole sign' house system. The one you picked I doubt anyone would consider unless they were making mundane charts for the whole world - '1=Aries' is noted precisely to indicate that it is for global mundane work and not natal.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
As I have stated before over and over, 'whole' is not a house system, but a workaround to avoid the sticky in mundi rotation mathematics of houses. It is for those who favor simplifying the complexity of the cosmos, dumbing it down to their level of (flat dimensional) understanding -- reductionisms rather than actually learning the astrological complexity/math that goes into the objective of house construction. That objective is to construct a base-12 division of the sky for each particular birth horoscope based on the unique time-location stamp of that horoscope.

To use the 12 divisions of the ecliptic as a substitute for this is a cop-out and does not form a real house system. Of all the so-called house systems, this one is the fraud and has no astrological virtues at all.

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Yes you have said it, over and over again, with some distinctness. I reckon you are clear on the matter based on your own experience - that is all very well.

I am not going to ask you to change your mind, but I'm not very convinced on the obviousness of this so-called 'cop-out'.

Numbers are very flexible, and they enjoy to mimic human reasoning processes. The mathematical understanding of human calculators are far too limited to really understand the nature of of the quantum mathematical world beyond Newtonian mechanics.

You cannot simply say that it is not taking into consideration the 'complexities of the cosmos' simply because it does not make use of a certain mathematical model - one that does not work on certain latitudes, mind you.

Personally, I consider the immediate physicality and its accompanying mathematical model to be a poor ultimate reference-point in astrology compared to the quantum-archetypal nature. The archetypal must come before physically based mathematics, because this mathematics is nothing but crude building blocks in our spiritual kindergarden.

Astrology is complex enough as it is, because it operates based on Quantum mechanics, and not Newtonian mechanics.
And why this demand of massive complexity anyway? Whoever said it cannot be 'simple'? Whole sign is very logical and simple, and herein lies the beauty and, in my view, validity.
"What is the purpose of life" asked someone,
"Oh it is so complex let's draw a mathematical model," said another.
"Well, actually it is simple -" said the third,
"- the purpose of life is love".

Anything 'simple' is indeed supremely complex when breaking it down. But sometimes the complex simply appear as very simple for human purposes. I believe 'houses' is such a thing - I believe they are based on the zodiac, not the mathematical gymnastics of limited subjects that in unison have separated the world in a multiplicity of absurd conflicts to the detriment of loving understanding (the house-system conflict being one of the less damaging examples, but still is an example). The problem is not mathematics as a tool, the problem is assuming the current state of that tool as a finalized omni-tool for fixing everything. "Yes you sure hammered the hell out of that horse, but maybe you should have given it a carrot instead?"

I have not really made a 'finalized' decision, but I must say that for my part, experientially, whole sign have checked out best thus far.

posted June 16, 2020 11:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad-monad:
But that's cherry-picking. Right above it you have the 'whole signs' option, which uses the sign of the Ascendant as house 1, and of course that is the one people most often refer to when they say 'whole sign' house system.

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Yes, indeed, thank you. That is what I meant and I've already edited my original post to reflect that. It's the "whole signs" option in the drop-down menu on Astrodienst.

posted June 16, 2020 01:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by NxNW:
Yes, indeed, thank you. That is what I meant and I've already edited my original post to reflect that. It's the "whole signs" option in the drop-down menu on Astrodienst.

My Venus is at 6˚ Cancer and my Asc is at 6˚ Leo so I guess that's why it just happens to fall into the 12-H when using whole signs. Having it in 11-H in Placidus does make me feel a bit better about it and I guess that doesn't hurt b/c I'll take encouragement from anywhere at this point.

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I would be careful about shifting house simply as an escape from the 12th, rather than actually feeling it fits better there in 11th in terms of how Venus expresses herself natally for you.

If you have the issues of a 12 house Venus, then it won't help you just to shift it to 11th. What you need to do is learn how to apply discernment in relationships, not getting blinded by dreams that aren't anchored in reality. Try to channel the positive aspects of this Venus: find comfort in solitude and use that space to engage with creative activities that help you fine-tune her vibrations.

If you simply shift it to 11th, you amp up meeting people just because your interpretation says this is what that Venus likes (perhaps that is more what you Ascendant likes) while still being subjected to the problems highlighted above, perhaps more so.

Cultivate discernment and cultivate the ability to step back into your space of solitude: engage in creative work and meditate on your relationships in this space so as to better discern their nature and clarify hazy pictures.

12th house Neptunian fog is only fog when you stand outside of it looking in - when you are in the middle of a social happening - when you go into Neptune/12th, when you go into your own solitude - things clarify for you. If you enter you may come into a fog, but that is only temporary: stay in the solitude for a while and the fog settles, stay in the dark for a while and your eyes adjust.

posted June 16, 2020 05:07 PM            

The answer is still to make sure your Asc figure is pinpoint accurate and use Placidus.

------------------
Soul Stars Astrology by The Declinations Guy
Expert birth chart rectification

posted June 16, 2020 09:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad-monad:
If you have the issues of a 12 house Venus, then it won't help you just to shift it to 11th. What you need to do is learn how to apply discernment in relationships, not getting blinded by dreams that aren't anchored in reality. Try to channel the positive aspects of this Venus: find comfort in solitude and use that space to engage with creative activities that help you fine-tune her vibrations.

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Yes, of course. Thank you for your words of wisdom. I've been trying to grapple with this for over a decade and actually, solitude is what I've been doing since 2012...The 11-H assignation (which is in Gem for me) is actually forcing me out of my comfort zone and aligning me closer to my Gemini North Node goals.

I think part of my struggle also has to do with Neptune transiting my 8-H in Pisces, which conjuncted Mars for short intervals. It is especially hard when the Moon transits in Pisces also and then I get what feels like an unbearable 8-H load of all-the-dark-things.