posted September 08, 2020 11:54 PM            

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It isn’t always projection, it’s more like I’ll be saying something and then think, “oh, I need to hear this, too!”

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Thus ... if, during an emotional/heated exchange with another. I find myself accusing him/her of possessing a 'negative" behavioural trait - I should reflect upon the likelihood of that behaviour being a trait of my own which I have not yet recognised (and embraced) in myself?

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With the one person, I think she needed someone to be patient with her. I may be asking for trouble, because I chose not to let her burn that bridge on my side, but she finally let it go. She can be overly -sensitive and angry, and I can be now, too. I didn’t understand what was going on at first, and when I fell in, I just decided to give her the chance to let it go. I vented to a few friends, because I was one of the few people who hadn’t blocked her, but she didn’t get the reaction she was looking for. I vented to friends who didn’t know her at all.

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posted September 09, 2020 12:34 AM            

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Parents are the reason for anger and emotional damages plenty of time. It’s such a hard job to do it right. It should be required to take parenting classes. If they don’t teach a child to share and accept expression of anger, eventually, he needs to learn the hard way. Perhaps, he would not understand why nobody wants to accept his unacceptable behavior/ be friends with him and develop anger about it. Life often gives us lessons what we were failed to learn as children, but we might not recognize and take it correctly.

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What’d be stage 7 of the (sharing) behavioural trait?

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1 = I will not share my toys ... 3 = I will share my toys, but need to express my negative feelings about society requiring me to do so ... 5 = I will share my toys and not openly express my feelings about doing so (because it makes others uncomfortable), but I resent society requiring me to do so. ... 6 = I realise that resentment is harmful to my physical and psychological health, so I let go of it (for MY sake rather than because society requires me to do so).

posted September 09, 2020 01:54 AM            

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I don't think these are mutually exclusive.

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The well-rounded child/adult is fully aware of his/her socially unacceptable behavioural traits ... and consciously chooses the if/why/what/when/where/how of displaying them to others.

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Learning to be polite, respectful, and considerate of others is not weakness, nor does it need to go so far as compromise your sense of self.

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The real problem is worrying about what others 'might think' (or say) about you; or being so averse to conflict that you just avoid the friction of disagreement, therefore never learning how to navigate it.

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How about being nice to yourself?

I know "nice" is derided these days (as in George Carlin's comedy/social commentary about "nice people"), but a lot of people -- a shocking portion of the U.S. population -- are self-loathing. Start with being nice to yourself -- ultimately self-accepting, no matter what it takes to achieve this.[/b]

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I'm someone who experienced that, then somehow slowly over the last decade or so drifted from it. I'm having to do some serious self-inventory and regain compassion, which is for self and others simultaneously. You can separate them. Genuine compassion for self results in compassion for others, and vice versa.

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So parents who have never really experienced or known compassion cannot pass it on to their children.

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posted September 09, 2020 02:27 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
It's definitely not mutually exclusive. I've learned that from experience and observation. And I'm not the only one given the many others, from Eminem to the Dalai Lama, that say the same thing.

I see people as like the rest of nature, both beautiful and horrifying, comforting and terrifying: capable of aching beauty and self-sacrifice, and terrifying in their cruelty and sacrifice of others. Few (if any) people truly belong in one camp or another. They're filled with it all, and all of it is natural, it's what they act on, and more importantly why they act on it, that determines the kind of person they are...and they can be one way with one person and something else to another, just as they can be one thing one day and the complete opposite the next day.

Now an inflated sense of entitlement (which is learned more than ingrained) strikes me as much more problematic (which can mix with anger, bitterness, envy, and the like).

There's also a difference between using one's emotions to gain strength and take action vs being a slave to one's emotions to act out like an undisciplined child (which some people can do well into their elder years--strange, given that plenty of kids can show more maturity and compassion than the average adult, and not just when adult eyes are upon them).

Naturally, there are people who will take advantage of foolish niceness that is fear-based (at least socially expected) rather than genuine (just as they exploit guilt and the like in a sordid, manipulative way, exploiting the vulnerability). I personally have no compassion for them and won't pretend otherwise.

And as for raising children...I do admit that it's a nerve-wracking balancing act at times as I contributed greatly (still do for one) of a girl and boy in how to be assertive and able to take care of themselves (without an overinflated senses of entitlement) while also making sure they don't abuse the knowledge and skills I give them, and hoping emotional control (channeling rather than suppression, the latter doesn't work and, if anything, makes it worse) is sufficient to make them human beings fit for adulthood, and how to compromise when necessary (and what is up for compromise and what isn't).

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I believe that too. ... But, what is your opinion about the "astrologer's ethic" of not creating charts for children under the age of 7?

posted September 09, 2020 12:33 PM            

[Should parents/guardians raise children to be "nice" or to be their "warts 'n all self"?
And ... does either option result in "doing harm"?]

Lots of interesting and valid points you all raised.
I’ve been following along...

Granted I don’t have kids - but when I do, I think it’s definitely about balance.
In early childhood, I would perhaps want to be more observant about the natural temperament of my child... and I would probably lean more towards letting him/her be him/herself. I want to encourage that - even if some quirks are deemed “socially unacceptable”.
I want to observe and then foster or encourage/facilitate his/her natural inclinations/gifts even if the approach is different from mine.

Unless it really puts harm to others or is hurtful (in which case, I would communicate and teach my child empathy - or I would try to figure out what is the root cause of such behaviours ie. anger, tantrums etc).
But I would also like to be open about such behaviours because let’s face it, anger, jealousy, aggression happens to the best of us too!

No one in life is perfect.
Everyone’s going to fall short of being “nice”, so I can only hope to encourage and foster self awareness, acceptance, compassion and some empathy with my (future) kids. Hopefully that would keep him/her from becoming an awful person....

What do you think?
Am I being overly idealistic?

I’ve read some works by Maria Montessori.... and I think it beautifully sums up what I think about raising kids... (namely The Discovery of the Child, and the Absorbent Mind)

I personally think it does more harm than good trying to “mould” children into our own perception of what constitutes “socially acceptable”.
But then again, if a child is autistic... that makes things a lot more complicated....
Having an existential moment 😅
But as Maria Montessori says... play on the child’s strengths. Focus on growing those strengths, confidence will grow, and usually his/her weaknesses will improve too - but in essence, focus on his/her strengths. Which I think are natural gifts!

If you look at the original children she worked with, they were deemed “unfit” for society, probably would not have had much of a future. But after her “teaching” which was more facilitation and providing the environment/tools then straight up positive/negative reinforcement, the children thrived.

posted September 09, 2020 12:57 PM            

it's possible to both be yourself and still be nice, you don't have to sacrifice yourself at your core in order to be kind to another person and it's not very fair to anyone to suppress themselves entirely for the sake of others either

this is the sort of thing where balance is required and empathy towards others

i can be myself without taking away from another person, but if i am then perhaps that's a side of myself that i need to work on

everyone is flawed and unique etc and that's fine but why wouldn't self improvement be part of that? no one should believe that there's never a reason to try to improve themselves just because people should accept them 100% as is

unconditional love is all well and good and accepting flaws of others and ourselves is part of life fo some extent, but balance is important and so is the ability to recognize and improve

valuing yourself doesn't need to be at the cost of another person and kindness doesn't have to cost you yourself

posted September 09, 2020 01:03 PM            

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i'm not really understanding why it's either/or here, or why one would cancel out the other

it's possible to both be yourself and still be nice, you don't have to sacrifice yourself at your core in order to be kind to another person and it's not very fair to anyone to suppress themselves entirely for the sake of others either

this is the sort of thing where balance is required and empathy towards others

i can be myself without taking away from another person, but if i am then perhaps that's a side of myself that i need to work on

everyone is flawed and unique etc and that's fine but why wouldn't self improvement be part of that? no one should believe that there's never a reason to try to improve themselves just because people should accept them 100% as is

unconditional love is all well and good and accepting flaws of others and ourselves is part of life fo some extent, but balance is important and so is the ability to recognize and improve

valuing yourself doesn't need to be at the cost of another person and kindness doesn't have to cost you yourself

i think a more suitable question here is: is it better to be honest or to be kind? in which case i would say honesty is best though there are diplomatic ways to be honest even if what you say isn't exactly "kind"

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THIS!

posted September 09, 2020 01:51 PM            

Being nice can do harm through passivity. Being yourself can do harm through not caring enough about other people. I'd personally try to teach any child of mine to be themselves in a responsible way, to avoid harming other people. That's the way I was brought up.

posted September 09, 2020 02:26 PM            

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Originally posted by Nadja:
I'd personally try to teach any child of mine to be themselves in a responsible way, to avoid harming other people. That's the way I was brought up.

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I agree with this.

posted September 10, 2020 03:57 AM            

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Granted I don’t have kids - but when I do, I think it’s definitely about balance.
In early childhood, I would perhaps want to be more observant about the natural temperament of my child... and I would probably lean more towards letting him/her be him/herself. I want to encourage that - even if some quirks are deemed “socially unacceptable”.
I want to observe and then foster or encourage/facilitate his/her natural inclinations/gifts even if the approach is different from mine.

Unless it really puts harm to others or is hurtful (in which case, I would communicate and teach my child empathy - or I would try to figure out what is the root cause of such behaviours ie. anger, tantrums etc).
But I would also like to be open about such behaviours because let’s face it, anger, jealousy, aggression happens to the best of us too!

No one in life is perfect.
Everyone’s going to fall short of being “nice”, so I can only hope to encourage and foster self awareness, acceptance, compassion and some empathy with my (future) kids. Hopefully that would keep him/her from becoming an awful person....

What do you think?
Am I being overly idealistic?

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I’ve read some works by Maria Montessori.... and I think it beautifully sums up what I think about raising kids... (namely The Discovery of the Child, and the Absorbent Mind)

I personally think it does more harm than good trying to “mould” children into our own perception of what constitutes “socially acceptable”.
But then again, if a child is autistic... that makes things a lot more complicated....
Having an existential moment 😅
But as Maria Montessori says... play on the child’s strengths. Focus on growing those strengths, confidence will grow, and usually his/her weaknesses will improve too - but in essence, focus on his/her strengths. Which I think are natural gifts!

If you look at the original children she worked with, they were deemed “unfit” for society, probably would not have had much of a future. But after her “teaching” which was more facilitation and providing the environment/tools then straight up positive/negative reinforcement, the children thrived.

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But, do you think adults-with-an-understanding-of-astrology might have a part to play in increasing the number of adults engaged in consciously parenting/mentoring children? (In other words ... "do astrologers have any responsibility for attempting to 'make happen what he/she believes needs to happen'?")

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And I’ve never heard of the astrologer’s ethic.... but I think I wouldn’t look up the charts of my children....
Would let their personalities unfold with time.... let it be!
I’d get really biased and paranoid if I looked at their charts. Would probably become a self fulfilling prophecy 😅

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posted September 10, 2020 05:24 AM            

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i'm not really understanding why it's either/or here, or why one would cancel out the other

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it's possible to both be yourself and still be nice, you don't have to sacrifice yourself at your core in order to be kind to another person and it's not very fair to anyone to suppress themselves entirely for the sake of others either

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this is the sort of thing where balance is required and empathy towards others

i can be myself without taking away from another person, but if i am then perhaps that's a side of myself that i need to work on

everyone is flawed and unique etc and that's fine but why wouldn't self improvement be part of that? no one should believe that there's never a reason to try to improve themselves just because people should accept them 100% as is

unconditional love is all well and good and accepting flaws of others and ourselves is part of life fo some extent, but balance is important and so is the ability to recognize and improve

valuing yourself doesn't need to be at the cost of another person and kindness doesn't have to cost you yourself

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i think a more suitable question here is: is it better to be honest or to be kind? in which case i would say honesty is best though there are diplomatic ways to be honest even if what you say isn't exactly "kind"

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Had the question been "is it better to be honest or to be kind", I suspect the discussion would have been too narrow to have morphed into :-

posted September 10, 2020 05:51 AM            

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i'm not really understanding why it's either/or here, or why one would cancel out the other

it's possible to both be yourself and still be nice, you don't have to sacrifice yourself at your core in order to be kind to another person and it's not very fair to anyone to suppress themselves entirely for the sake of others either

this is the sort of thing where balance is required and empathy towards others

i can be myself without taking away from another person, but if i am then perhaps that's a side of myself that i need to work on

everyone is flawed and unique etc and that's fine but why wouldn't self improvement be part of that? no one should believe that there's never a reason to try to improve themselves just because people should accept them 100% as is

unconditional love is all well and good and accepting flaws of others and ourselves is part of life fo some extent, but balance is important and so is the ability to recognize and improve

valuing yourself doesn't need to be at the cost of another person and kindness doesn't have to cost you yourself

i think a more suitable question here is: is it better to be honest or to be kind? in which case i would say honesty is best though there are diplomatic ways to be honest even if what you say isn't exactly "kind"

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Agree, especially to this:
"everyone is flawed and unique etc and that's fine but why wouldn't self improvement be part of that? no one should believe that there's never a reason to try to improve themselves just because people should accept them 100% as is"

I've had people telling me: "This is who I am. Take it or leave it." and guess what? I left them. Of course everyone hopes to be their authentic selves but the world doesn't revolve around us and no one is obligated to acquiesce to us all the time, so I'll say this should be done with measured freedom.

posted September 10, 2020 05:57 AM            

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Originally posted by Nadja:
I don't think being nice is really something to strive for. To be a good person isn't about being nice. It's more about caring for other people, taking care not to hurt other people. To be honest, loyal, generous... You can be all of those things and yet not be nice exactly. To me nice is more superficial, nice manners, a nice smile, a nice pleasant person... Which is nice and all, but I'd rather be good than nice. And part of being a good person is being true to yourself and your convictions. About acting with feeling, not just doing something to be nice.

Being nice can do harm through passivity. Being yourself can do harm through not caring enough about other people. I'd personally try to teach any child of mine to be themselves in a responsible way, to avoid harming other people. That's the way I was brought up.

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posted September 10, 2020 06:03 AM            

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Originally posted by anonymidarkness:
I agree with this.

I was brought up to be "nice" and it didn't help me at all I'd say, until I chose to do otherwise and then choose to find some outlets for any "harm" that I can cause.

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posted September 10, 2020 06:11 AM            

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Originally posted by Stawr:
I have this problem. I was raised to be nice. I have a hard time finding middle ground.

I'd rather file a noise complaint because in the heat of the moment I am like "what's wrong with you!?"

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And, if you are now conscious of those not-nice traits ... did you formerly project them onto others, but have now stopped doing so?

posted September 10, 2020 06:25 AM            

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Originally posted by Graham:

In your opinion, Nadja ... what should a "good person" do if/he she believes another person has suppressed a behavioural trait that his/her soul is now attempting to make him/her aware of?

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posted September 10, 2020 06:26 AM            

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Originally posted by Hikaru29:
Agree, especially to this:
"everyone is flawed and unique etc and that's fine but why wouldn't self improvement be part of that? no one should believe that there's never a reason to try to improve themselves just because people should accept them 100% as is"

I've had people telling me: "This is who I am. Take it or leave it." and guess what? I left them. Of course everyone hopes to be their authentic selves but the world doesn't revolve around us and no one is obligated to acquiesce to us all the time, so I'll say this should be done with measured freedom.

On the flip side, I'm also not saying that we should pretend to be someone we're not just to fit it. Like you said, we can still be ourselves but still be nice.

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I agree with all that you say above. ... But, if conditioning is preventing the other person from seeing their flaws/need for self-improvement, should those-with-knowledge-of-astrology attempt to help them do so?

posted September 10, 2020 06:44 AM            

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Originally posted by Nadja:
Imo a good person should let other people learn their own lessons. If they ask you about it or discuss something related with you, be honest. If they don't ask or don't seem interested, then don't offer your opinion. If they seem like they are suffering, ask if you can help in any way.

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posted September 10, 2020 06:48 AM            

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Originally posted by Graham:

So ... those who do not ask for help should not be given it?

How does this relate to the parable of the Good Samaritan ... http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010:25-37&version=NIV

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posted September 10, 2020 06:51 AM            

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Originally posted by vansio:
Based of family dynamics, a “false self” is created to protect one’s own ego. Your question, in my opinion, is more aptly referring to what child development psychologist, D. W. Winnicott, described as the false self and true self.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_self_and_false_self

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posted September 10, 2020 06:54 AM            

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Originally posted by Nadja:
If they look like they may need help you ask if they need help. If they obviously desperately need help and are clearly suffering then you help. But you don't force your help on someone who is doing ok and isn't asking for help.

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posted September 10, 2020 09:46 AM            

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Originally posted by Graham:
my thread topic is indeed "false self vs true self", vansio.

Thank you for clarifying that.

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posted September 10, 2020 12:05 PM            

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Originally posted by vansio:
no problem 👌🏽 for Winnicott, it’s false self AND true self rather than versus

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