posted December 21, 2020 05:02 PM            

would anyone like to make a case for either Placidus over Equal or Equal over Placidus?

Equal makes quite a significant change to my chart, so I'd like to hear which you use and why. I am trying to make my mind up about this, but I'm unsure how to determine which method has more accuracy.

Please share your experience with me!

posted December 21, 2020 08:45 PM            

equals shifts my jupiter placement to its whole sign placement (which i use to begin with) in the 6th rather than 5th and puts uranus exactly on the 2nd/3rd house cusp (placidus has it more directly in 3rd)

i guess i appreciate that jupiter is in what i'd consider its more correct spot with equal houses, but i don't feel like it really changes enough for me to judge it based on my own chart

i prefer whole sign on a personal level because i find placidus can fall apart when the houses are very uneven, which i suppose equal gets rid of though not necessarily for the better

i'd need to look at more charts to have a more fleshed out opinion, but considering i find whole sign accurate i probably wouldn't dig too much

posted December 21, 2020 09:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mee_chryssa:
I think it matters where you live too.

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this is exactly one of the reasons why people do it, because placidus system falls apart entirely in some areas (it can regardless but it becomes unusable) though i don't understand why the shift would be to equal over whole sign in those cases

in my chart's case they're rather similar so the overall spirit of placidus is maintained, but ive seen charts that would definitely not be the case so i'm not really sure why that would be the go to

aside from keeping planets in ascendant sign 12th house if they fall before the ascendant axis

also planets that would be first house in placidus but are in the sign after the ascendant would still be accounted for most likely 🤔🤷‍♀️

posted December 22, 2020 08:57 AM            

Because of the curvature of the earth, the higher latitudes produce off-scale houses. That's where whole-house can give a more concise picture.

I understand what Graham is saying about needing to do the synthesis of whole reading when doing whole-house. {Haven't tested that yet, but I can 'guess' that would be the case.}

Whole-houses are used by the Hellenistic and ancient medieval methods, which have seen a revival of interests in the past decade.

I prefer (what feels like) the 'precision' of Placidus.
Whole House is too loose for me. Would be hazier in Predictive work (at least, for me).

What's important is that when you are beginning your studies, that you stay with very-thoroughly learning only ONE system. When you have a good working grasp of that, then you don't get lost when you branch out to the others, for experiment.

When people talk about their charts here, it would alleviate confusion if they state which House system they are using.

posted December 22, 2020 09:30 AM            

I mean, Sun in the 4th is NOT the same as Sun in the 5th. Moon in the 11th is NOT the same as Moon in the 12th, you know? My Vertex/Chiron shift from the 7H to the 8H, and my Jupiter shifts from the 1H to 2H in both equal and whole systems, and Venus shifts from the 3H to the 4H in Whole Sign. The most drastic change is probably with the whole sign system. I'll post the charts so you can see what I mean.

Placidus

Whole Sign

Equal

It's kinda difficult as I can make cases for both Sun in 4H and Sun in 5H. 4H - I am definitely a homebody, Sun is ruler of my MC and I definitely work better at home. 5H - I am always doing something creative and this would be my chosen career path (probably a mix of jewellery making and music composition).

Moon in 11H (Placidus) has never really made much sense to me when it comes to relations with women. My relationship with my mother was not, and is not close. As an adult, my closest relationships are with men, I just don't jive with many women (despite being bisexual). Moon in 12H confuses me somewhat, but I do have a highly spiritual side and I am more emotional than my Virgo Moon would suggest, although I do 'hide' my emotions often. I prefer to work through them alone with various practices. I've always preferred to be alone when I am in pain, perhaps this is why my relationships with women have suffered.

posted December 22, 2020 09:55 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
Theoretically ... both charts should produce the same report if (b)fully(/b)analysed, interpreted and synthesised.

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this is true but to different levels of accuracy i'd say, but ultimately yes, since it's like different forms of divination with the same question

you'll get the same answer tarot, runes, iching, lenormand etc but the depth will vary and depending on someone's ability to intuit that can change a lot

@mirage29

placidus actually does hold up well for divination i've noticed, you can divine with any system but i have noticed placidus does work very well here (assuming you live in the right place for it too) so that is a fair point with using placidus

i learned with placidus then switched to whole sign when i encountered some roadblocks with placidus when reading charts

i also use sidereal placements

@voix

thanks for posting the charts, they do change quite a bit, have you looked at sidereal for whole sign + the vedic understanding of signs?

as for what graham said yeah 4th and 5th house venus are very different but the energies should be compensated when you take the chart as a whole (through aspects or signs)

it's not so much about where you get the information but how you put it all together

posted December 22, 2020 11:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mee_chryssa:
Yes, just like I have Saturn in 8th house in the equal sign and I dont feel like I need a lesson from Saturn to that house, there is not way that I was so plutonic that I needed to have a lesson. My 8th house is empty in Placidus and all the aspects that my Pluto makes are just easy aspects, except for the opposition to my Moon and the placement in Scorpio, and other planets in Scorpio, I dont have.

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So, your Saturn in 8H has not played out then Mee_Chryssa? (BTW, I see you are from Romania. I have always felt a connection to Romania even though I have never been. I think I probably had a past lifeline there)

posted December 22, 2020 12:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
So, your Saturn in 8H has not played out then Mee_Chryssa? (BTW, I see you are from Romania. I have always felt a connection to Romania even though I have never been. I think I probably had a past lifeline there)

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No, I didnt find myself in the description. And Im not really good at surviving things and in the description was something about giving a native long life because Saturn is the Lord of Time and he prolongs anything, so in the 8th house, he saves you from diseases or dangerous situations. Sure, there is more about the 8th house Saturn, but just one thing that couldnt fit me. I am more of a Neptunian than a Plutonic. I recently understood what other people were saying about plutonic people here on other threads. This gets off topic. Sorry!

I will have my Saturn return in a month so maybe I will know then.

So I chose to use Placidus because there were some planets, using Equal house system, that felt strange to be in other houses.

posted December 23, 2020 06:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mee_chryssa:
No, I didnt find myself in the description. And Im not really good at surviving things and in the description was something about giving a native long life because Saturn is the Lord of Time and he prolongs anything, so in the 8th house, he saves you from diseases or dangerous situations. Sure, there is more about the 8th house Saturn, but just one thing that couldnt fit me. I am more of a Neptunian than a Plutonic. I recently understood what other people were saying about plutonic people here on other threads. This gets off topic. Sorry!

I will have my Saturn return in a month so maybe I will know then.

So I chose to use Placidus because there were some planets, using Equal house system, that felt strange to be in other houses.

What about Romania makes you feel close to?

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Indeed. When Saturn returns, I would think you would definitely feel it if it's in your 8H. It's my Moon that makes me think Equal is more accurate. I could explain away both trop and equal Suns, but Moon in 12H seems to make more sense than Moon in 11H, but I probably need to study it more.

I'm not sure why I feel connected to Romania. The traditional music and speaking to people who have come to Scotland from Romania make me feel a longing for the country that I cannot explain.

posted December 23, 2020 06:28 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MoonMystic:
Voix,
Interesting question. not long back had an astrology report by a pay site drawn. They used the Placidus. My Sun~Moon and Venus conjunctions were relocated from 3rd to 2nd.
The report was positive, as it has before been by the differnet houses. This one was well aligned to true fir me too. My Aqua Decan is in the Mercury modality. Thus, having it in second could still flavor it as a 3rd in nature.

In Astrodienst, I use Whole house and Placidus. There it always brings my planets/luminaries to the same houses though.

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That's my trouble. The changes to some of my placements feel quite drastic across the systems. I suppose a big difference between the 2H and 3H are one is a material house and one an airy house. One about security and one about communication. I guess though we all need both these factors in our lives, so it would be difficult to choose which is more relevant.

posted December 23, 2020 08:45 PM            

The whole idea of house systems are based upon:
(a) the objective of creating your birth horoscope's base-12 division (just as the zodiac has a base-12 division) based upon the time/space specifics of your birth's location and timing;
(b) acknowledgement of angular deviations of the Midheaven from 90° depending on birth location;
(c) trisection of the diurnal semi-arc (arc between Asc & MC) to achieve these.

Forget 'whole sign.' It's not even a house system, but replaces house division with the zodiacal divisions, which have no relation to the birth location or spherical nature of Earth.

Equal house is arbitrary and unreliable. It's arbitrary because it is based on creating the appearance of equal houses on a flat wheel chart (as if Earth is flat and) as if all births took place at the equator, thus ignoring the deviations from 90° made by the Midheaven from latitudes outside the tropics. For people who were born reasonably near the equator (between the two tropics of Cancer, Capricorn) there won't be much difference. So those birth locations/charts do not make good basis for comparisons.

And before any of you go jumping to defend equal house because it works with your chart ... yes, in some charts it is pretty accurate -- if the timing of your birth did not involve deviation of the MC from 90°. Then your chart will be basically the same in equal as in Placidus. But a real test of such a system is whether it allows predictive tools (transits, secondary progressions) to work with precision and can be relied on in rectification. And equal just doesn't and can't. Any astrologer who says otherwise is fooling themselves and does not even understand the basic geo-physics of astrology.

To make good comparisons you'll need to use just a few charts that have been 100% verified for their pinpiont accuracy on the Asc. The transits and progressions to cusps for major life events are revealing, at least if you're trained to watch the cusps in both longitude and declination. Leave out declination and you can't get a reliable comparison. Just subjective interpretations of natal house placements is not enough.

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Voix_de_la_Mer,

All that has been accomplished with the chart I sent you a while back, which has Asc 24° Libra.

-

posted December 23, 2020 11:51 PM            

quote:

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But the real test of a house system is whether it allows predictive tools (transits, secondary progressions) to work with precision and can be relied on in rectification.

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Yes. ... to test the validity of a house system, the natal chart has to be used (rather than just 'read').

posted December 31, 2020 06:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Nadereme:
What about Porphyry, Meridian, and Morinus? I've heard some say these systems are very accurate.

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For every system you will find advocates who say it is accurate. A lot of it depends on the parameters being used for defining 'accuracy.' I apply the standard of 0°05' culmination zone (orb) for secondary progressed aspects to natal cusps related to the nature and timing of life events. Not 1° or even half a degree. The only system that accurate is Placidus. Between many systems there's not much variation between house lines, with often a degree or less between two different systems. Therefore, parameters like 1° are virtually meaningless.

The challenge with astrology is that it provides enough individual pieces for any given person to compose 'truth' or 'accuracy' if they're looking for it.

As to the systems you mentioned ...

Porphyry is not based on the location and specific timing of the native's birth (mundane sphere/Earth rotation), but on (tri-section of) the ecliptic. That's the same flaw as the 'whole sign' approach. So it cannot meet the objective of natal horoscopy, which is to use the specific coordinates and timing of native's birth to tri-sect the mundane sphere so that the native's own base-12 horoscope is revealed.

Meridian, aka Equatorial system, is more interesting and has some concepts with seemingly greater potential because they allow the system to function at all latitudes. I have not tested this system in any real way, but may in the future if I can set up a test with the right types of charts (extreme latitudes).

I have no comment on Morinus since it's another system that is not based on tri-secting the semi-arc of the mundane sphere. Meridian isn't either, but at least it offers a feature that seems more translatable across a fuller ranges of latitudes.

posted December 31, 2020 09:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Indeed. When Saturn returns, I would think you would definitely feel it if it's in your 8H. It's my Moon that makes me think Equal is more accurate. I could explain away both trop and equal Suns, but Moon in 12H seems to make more sense than Moon in 11H, but I probably need to study it more.

I'm not sure why I feel connected to Romania. The traditional music and speaking to people who have come to Scotland from Romania make me feel a longing for the country that I cannot explain.

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posted January 01, 2021 03:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
Yes. ... to test the validity of a house system, the natal chart has to be used (rather than just 'read').

However - even then - much will depend upon what the chart is being used for. ... Hence, the Hubers concluded that the Koch houses produced the most accurate results for their Life Clock progressions/transits to the natal chart. BUT, their aim was to identify "psychological events" that impact upon the psyche of the chart owner - whereas progressions/transits to Placidus houses reveal "physical events" that impact upon the life of the chart owner.

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Can you give us a link to web material describing the details of this study -- or the book it was documented in?