posted October 10, 2009 02:20 AM         

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Without dissecting every point, to me it sounds like an excuse to not engage in the world.

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PA, I'm so engaged, that I'm willing to "dissect" every point. That's how sincere and serious I am about dialoguing with you, and the world. If you are truly humble, you might see that.

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Why would God give you something and not want you to use it effectively, engagingly in the world?

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First of all, I'm not sure God wants anything (or is anything, for that matter), though we can conceptualize God in a personal way for practical purposes, and, in that sense, I will agree that "God" "wants" us to use our gifts. But that doesn't mean "He" gives everyone the desire to use their gifts, or even the awareness of what their gifts may be. I think many people go to their graves with their potential unfulfilled, and their gifts gathering dust somewhere in their unconscious minds. Sad, but probably true.

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And the stuff about swimming and crawling. Rubbish.

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How utterly humble of you to reduce my theory to "rubbish". Unfortuneately, you completely mistook my point...

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You can do both. You can be effective in the material and spiritual worlds simultaneously. If we were meant to only be spiritual, then we wouldn't actually be here materialised living this Earth life.

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I agree. What I mean is that every truth has a corollary. There is a time to speed up, and a time to slow down. The difficulty is that we only see the lesson before us and when we try to conceptualize or articulate it, we overshadow the corollary. In other words, when we are learning a lesson about letting go, we tend to articulate it in absolute terms, without considering that there is also a time to hold on tight. I see people doing this constantly. It appears to be the nature of things; a side-effect of the dualistic thinking in which we are all caught.

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It's not looking at the world through rose coloured glasses. It's seeing the potential and bringing that out. I'm an idealist. I'll always be one. And will never apologise for that.

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I hope you're right. It just seems very unlikely to me, that's all. But even if there is some comprehensive equality, we should be able to agree that people are not equal in every respect. Everyone is not equally tall or equally fit or equally intelligent or equally sensitive. And we ought to be able to admit our virtues, or gifts, without being labelled "arrogant". For instance, I believe that Leonardo Da Vinci's intelligence was head and shoulders above my own. In fact, I will go so far as to say that the man was superior to me in just about every way, and that if a choice had to be made between us, I would (assuming I have any objectivity at the time) gladly lay down my life for his. I would not pressume to call myself his equal (would you?). Is that humility? You be the judge.

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There's nothing wrong with seeing beauty in things. Sometimes seeing beauty in things is seeing it's "truth".

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My Sun conjunct Venus couldn't agree more. It's why I write poetry that rouses people's souls and brings beauty into the world. But I think the emphasis here is on the word "sometimes". Truth is not only beautiful. It's many things. It's everything. If it were only part of things, it would be denial, not truth.

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When you can see something great in someone else that they may not have spotted in themselves, and you give that to them - it creates magic and makes things happen that perhaps would not have otherwise happened. When you believe in people, it helps them belive in themselves.

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Again, I agree. In fact, thats what Venus in Scorpio is largely about. Valuing other people's resources, and transforming others by drawing out their potentials. I'm pretty good at spotting what other people bring to the table. And I dont hesitate to express my appreciation for their gifts. However, I don't attribute gifts to them which they do not possess, in order to make them happy. Nor do I deny, or downplay, my own gifts, in order to set their confidence at ease.

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I can't stand it when the concept of wisdom is treated as some elitist thing.

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Then don't treat it that way. Personally, I think wisdom deserves an exalted position, and I make a point of distinguishing the wise. I remember their names, and return to read their words often. If anything is to be held in high esteem, it would be wisdom, and compassion for the weak and the afflicted -- which, to my mind, is just another aspect of wisdom. What I can't stand is when people exalt things like perfect abs and chisselled profiles. When they post photos of celebs everywhere, oggling them and expressing their admiration in all sorts of clever, diverting ways.

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Could be the Aqua Moon in 11th speaking, or Libra and Jupiter in Scorpy in 7th.

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This is kind of funny because just today I was thinking about asking you if your Moon was in the 11th. I remembered that this placement was cautioned on being superficial. If my pointing that out doesnt exactly boost your confidence, don't blame me. Instead, consider looking inside yourself, and seeking more depth. Or, try to consider what is valuable in superficiality. It has its perks. You bring a lot of lightness to the forum, even if it is occassionally at the expense of some things which I consider meaningful. I think that's a beautiful and necessary thing, and somebody has to do it. We can't all be deep, and that's okay. It takes all types. Emerson writes eloquently about the virtue of superficiality, and how much skill it takes to skate over the surfaces of things, and not to be dragged down into another abyss at every turn. I often envy and admire that, and I'm sure I could use a bit more of it myself.

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I hate it when people go around telling each other how wise and spiritual and evolved they are. When people start spinning that, it defeats the purpose of what they think they are. I don't believe that "evolved" people go around thinking they're "evolved". They see themselves in everyone and everything else - everything as integral as each other and everything else. That's my take on it. You can't be "evolved" and have a big ego. That's too ironic. And too ridiculous. Humility accounts for a lot as far as I'm concerned.

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Fair enough. You are welcome to your opinion, but I would ask you to consider that, according to your own definition, you indirectly just claimed to be more humble, and more evolved, than myself. You may not admit this openly and frankly, but it is, nevertheless, how you view the situation. The only difference, as I see it, is that I openly admit these things, and do not just hint at them indirectly (or, some might say, passive aggressively). You see yourself as more humble, and by extention, more evolved, than myself. Admit it, if you dare. Or just make a joke at my expense, and sidestep the issue that way. Whatever works for you. I will grant that you are more humble than me in some ways, and maybe even in general, but I think that spiritual evolution depends on many things. I think a very evolved person can still exhibit arrogance, though they may eventually pay a price for it before advancing any further. The slow and steady tortoise may overtake them, for awhile, but the race is long, and there are so many lessons to learn; humility being only one of them -- and often one of the most over-rated. As I see it, nobody is in possession of all the virtues. We all have lessons to impart, and we are all lacking in some regard. If we were to zero-in on what a person lacks, and determine, based on that, that they are not evolved, we would eventually come to the conclusion that nobody is evolved. And we'd miss out on a lot of wisdom that way.

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I really belive that "seer knowledge", etc, is channelled and the second people start claiming that information as theirs it's their ego talking. The knowledge or wisdom or just information that comes to seers, it comes through them, channelled - they're messengers. It's not theirs to claim. Psychics, seers, whatever, it's all the same - conduits, channels, messengers. That's where the humility kicks in - knowing that it's not you or about you - but that you're bringing in this information from another source - you could say higher source if you like - but a spiritual one, I believe.

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I agree with this one probably more than you do, PA. That's why I don't believe in free will at all. Its something I continually remind myself of. And because I do understand this so deeply, I have no difficulty in admitting my virtues; for the simple reason that I do not ultimately see them as "mine". Can you understand that? I know you can if you try. But can you try?

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I think philiosophing alone is a waste of time. Doing something with that knowledge or wisdom or insight or whatever you want to call it, that's making a contribution to life.

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posted October 10, 2009 02:45 AM         

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PA, I'm so engaged, that I'm willing to "dissect" every point. That's how sincere and serious I am about dialoguing with you, and the world. If you are truly humble, you might see that.

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You're right. I mean, that's all you really want to hear. So there it is. Empty words.

Of course you're evolved and all that less than humble Aries and that blasted Aqua Moon in 11th can't see below the surface of anything so I need your guiding light. Damn my big shallow self and that enormous ego. I wonder what God wants me to really do with it? Really. Hmmm - must ponder. Meanwhlie, the Earth turns and things need to be done. Blasted life, getting in the way of all that philosophising and posturing. Oh well.....

The irony is that your reply made my point for me. So, yeah, thanks.

This is the meaningless thread, afterall.