posted November 09, 2009 04:21 PM         

That was really nice, Spanky Butler.

I wanted to start a thread asking people what they are getting out of Valus' threads.
I know what I get out of them.

Valus' threads have become essential for my intellectual and spiritual growth. The thought and convictions he shares are very important and I have learned/ am learning a lot from them but it's the debates that follow his posts and the juxtaposition of opinions that I find most valuable. There is always some hidden gem which comes to light all of a sudden after all the mud has been kicked around and smeared all over everything.

I know how much Valus labors over this. I appreciate his presence here. He raises difficult questions, which I often wrestle with in my life. It does seem to be a dirty job. I am just happy LL provides an outlet for all that he and all of you have to say.

posted November 09, 2009 05:33 PM         

I thought there was another forum for debating here at Lindaland. I avoid that one so I forget the name of it.

I enjoy a good debate on occasion. It just seems like the ones on this particular board get more into personal and character attacks more often than they need to. So if I'm up for a debate then I'll look up some debate forums - it's disheartening when I'm not in the mood to mistakenly stumble upon one so when that happens I can't open any Valus threads.

I've stated in threads here before (very recently, in fact) what I think on a certain subject if I feel strongly enough about it to comment. I just honestly don't feel that MY way or MY opinion is always the best way for everyone or the only way for everyone.

posted November 09, 2009 05:48 PM         

I hear you, MoonWitch. If you have no strong urge to promote your ideas, its probably not your calling to do so. And you're right: It's hard to get an honest debate going. The more sincere you are in wanting to understand and be understood, the more people object to having their posts scrutinized. And that's just the beginning. This probably isn't the best place for it, but its the best thing I've got right now.

Next to Yin.

posted November 10, 2009 03:31 AM         

What's wrong with LL today? It appears that I'm gonna have to do it myself. Sheesh!

V - Y - T

You're welcome.

posted November 10, 2009 04:38 AM         

quote:

---

There is always some hidden gem which comes to light all of a sudden after all the mud has been kicked around and smeared all over everything.

---

I agree whole heartedly with you on this one thing. That gem, however, is different for everyone.

Can I just offer you my perception?

I have had a great deal of angst toward Valus , not for what he posts but the manner in which he posts/ responds to others. I see it as unnecessarily aggressive at times.

Let me just say that thinking is a necessity for every individual but is it Valus's job to kick people's butts to his level? Or to finger point at those not yet at his understanding? I don't see that as a loving, compassionate action & I find it very upsetting.

Somethings Valus has put out there for others have not been his genuine opinion, rather they are an attempt at getting people to think about the issue from another perspective, yes? This to me is misleading in who he is. Would it be presumptuous of me to want him to share his genuine opinion/thoughts & go from there? I say this because I want to know the real man.

I don't say these things to cause hurt or to vent frustration, Yin. I just want to understand.

By the way, congrats to you both & I wish you every happiness together.

I told you she was coming V.

posted November 10, 2009 12:19 PM         

quote:

---

I have had a great deal of angst toward Valus , not for what he posts but the manner in which he posts/ responds to others. I see it as unnecessarily aggressive at times.

---

I could say the same things. And try to imagine how frustrating it can be for me, since I live inside Valus, -- or he lives inside me; I'm not sure which. It's not that I can't take responsibility for things I don't like, or don't always like, in his -- my -- behavior. It's that I see it differently, and feel differently about it, depending on my moods. I'm a moody s.o.b., in case you hadn't noticed. And I come off, online, much colder and harsher than I do in the non-virtual world. Ask my girlfriend. I can be the most tender and gentle man. Now that she knows me, she says, my posts sound very different to her. She knows where I'm coming from. She doesn't always approve of my bluntness, and she wishes things didn't affect me the way they do, and get me so angry and worked up, but she understands and accepts my passion. She may try to calm me down and help me to be more patient or gentle with people, or to learn how to ignore them, but, first and foremost, there is the love, acceptance, and understanding that she always has for me. She knows I'm a person who feels things deeply and has to react to them, and that I wrestle with how to communicate all that I see -- because my reactions are often multidimensional, but they hit me in an instant, and I have to work to unravel them if I want to convey them. And that I struggle with the line between being courteous and being honest, being tolerant and being firm, being objective and being myself, being impartial and being fair (since fairness can require an act in favor of one side over the other, if an imbalance exists), etc. And she sees all that is best in me; the romantic heart, the experimental mind, the child spirit, the loverboy, the teacher, the testy old man, and a thousand other things. And she loves me, in spite of everything, and, at times, -- and with a secret, knowing, and only barely wicked smile, -- for everything that I am. As deeply as I approach the Christian ideal, I always return to the Pagan gods; Orpheus, Zeus, and Dionysus. And I'm more ambivalent than apologetic about this.

quote:

---

Let me just say that thinking is a necessity for every individual but is it Valus's job to kick people's butts to his level? Or to finger point at those not yet at his understanding? I don't see that as a loving, compassionate action & I find it very upsetting.

---

The way I see it, the world, or the world as it appears to most people, -- that is, the world we live in, civilization, -- is upside down. And because civilization is upside down, most people are enjoying certain privileges which their ignorance of this fact provides, and when you relieve them of their ignorance, you also deprive them of these privileges (which can be very upsetting for them, to the extent that their egos are being forced to compromise). However you attempt to enlighten people to perspectives which shatter their current worldview, they are going to resist you. The majority of us, when we begin to see these things and to feel the responsibility to express them, will either attempt to influence people in very gentle, unassuming ways (being far more sensitive to the person's feelings than to the integrity of the truth), or, else, we will sink into hopelessness and believe that the world, and people's minds, cannot be changed. My way is different. I think that, if you try to coax a weapon out of someone's hand, they will just hold to it more tightly, but, if you snatch it when they are least suspecting, you can get it out of their hands. Sometimes you miss and get cut, but, for me, its worth taking a swipe at it.

Another thing is that people aren't motivated to think. They won't take an interest in deeper things for the sake of those things, or the beauty and nobility of those things. But they will take an interest if you get them personally involved. Say something that matters to them, that hits home, that touches the ego, and stirs the blood, and you've got yourself an audience, boy! Then they feel something. Then they start to wake up. And they'll attack you. And if you're lucky you can lead them onto a level playing field and actually get them to debate the issue, and to think. And then you've got them. Nobody can win in a fair fight against the truth.

quote:

---

Somethings Valus has put out there for others have not been his genuine opinion, rather they are an attempt at getting people to think about the issue from another perspective, yes? This to me is misleading in who he is. Would it be presumptuous of me to want him to share his genuine opinion/thoughts & go from there? I say this because I want to know the real man.

---

If you want to know, just ask me. I may slightly exaggerate some of my views, or word them in a way that is especially ironic or provocative, but I never stray far from my point, or from what I personally believe. Also, its important to understand that my views are very complex, so, when you hear me say something, you may make a number of assumptions based on that which do not actually reflect my views. The problem here isnt that I'm misrepresenting myself, but, that I'm a rare bird and, partly for that reason, partly for others, I'm not easy to understand. Its only natural that people are going to make assumptions when confronted with an anomaly, and I understand that. Nonetheless, it upsets me, I react, and then I see no problem with giving them a little shock, so maybe next time they won't be so quick to assume. Not with me, at least.

It's not easy being different, you know. People expect you to make yourself readily intelligible to them. To think, speak, and behave in familiar and prescribed ways. Its taken for granted that the individual ought to adapt herself to the conglomerate, but what happens when that individual is a true individual? Then you are basically expecting this person to compromise everything that they are, in order that you won't have to be met with anything unexpected today, tomorrow, or the day after that. Sorry for the inconvenience. Maybe I should wear a shirt with those words on it, because people sure make me feel like I'm inconveniencing them a lot by being different.

I'm DIFFERENT
Sorry for the
inconvenience

LOL

There's my T-shirt.

posted November 10, 2009 03:23 PM         

Regarding Yin & her perspective, It's understandable that she would know you better or should I say, see more sides to you than most of us. (Sorry for talking about you like you're not here Yin, but I know you're 'here'.) Much is lost when we cannot speak face to face, or voice to voice. Her view is much clearer than anyone else's. It is much harder for me personally to know the real you.

Would you be surprised to know that I agree with you about the state of our world & it's condition? You are not alone in your thinking on this. We agree on something? OMG!

I just want you to know that my previous words are not a dig at you for being different. Where is the fun in talking to someone who is exactly the same as me? Life would be so boring. I guess I just want to see the gooey centre on occasion, the soft heart that isn't always so angry at the wrongness of the world to just be & relate on a basic human level, just once in a while. Am I asking too much? You obviously have one or you wouldn't have attracted such a gentle soul as Yin, yes?

I'm not asking you to compromise your convictions Valus, or to apologize for your passions. I'm just asking you if it's possible for you to be somewhat gentler. It just might widen your audience.

The one thing I think I understand is that you thoroughly enjoy shocking people. That would be that Aqua Moon, lol. Am I wrong?

I wish you all the best on your journey V.

Take care.

posted November 10, 2009 06:42 PM         

quote:

---

The one thing I think I understand is that you thoroughly enjoy shocking people. That would be that Aqua Moon, lol. Am I wrong?

---

That... and the Sun conjunct Uranus

And Venus conjunct Uranus

And Midheaven conjunct Uranus
(by 6 minutes)

and Sun Parallel Uranus

and Moon Parallel Uranus

and Saturn Sextile Uranus

and Sun/Venus/MC/Uranus in the 11th
(using Whole Sign Houses)

or Aquarius Intercepted in the 1st
(using Placidus Houses)

I had better enjoy it,
because I sure can't help it.

But I think something that
has a lot to do with this is
my Sun Quincunx Eris in Aries,
the closest aspect in my chart
(I think its within 1 or 2 minutes).

Not so much the need to shock,
but the appreciation for disputes,
and the vitality experienced when
we compete, honestly and jocularly,
for the merits of our own point of view.

Eris wasn't invited to the party,
and sometimes I feel that way.

And I feel the need to compete
for the validity of my perspective.

posted November 13, 2009 10:18 AM         

quote:

---

It's not that I can't take responsibility for things I don't like, or don't always like, in his -- my -- behavior. It's that I see it differently, and feel differently about it, depending on my moods. I'm a moody s.o.b., in case you hadn't noticed. And I come off, online, much colder and harsher than I do in the non-virtual world. Ask my girlfriend. I can be the most tender and gentle man. Now that she knows me, she says, my posts sound very different to her. She knows where I'm coming from. She doesn't always approve of my bluntness, and she wishes things didn't affect me the way they do, and get me so angry and worked up, but she understands and accepts my passion. She may try to calm me down and help me to be more patient or gentle with people, or to learn how to ignore them, but, first and foremost, there is the love, acceptance, and understanding that she always has for me. She knows I'm a person who feels things deeply and has to react to them, and that I wrestle with how to communicate all that I see -- because my reactions are often multidimensional, but they hit me in an instant, and I have to work to unravel them if I want to convey them. And that I struggle with the line between being courteous and being honest, being tolerant and being firm, being objective and being myself, being impartial and being fair (since fairness can require an act in favor of one side over the other, if an imbalance exists), etc. And she sees all that is best in me; the romantic heart, the experimental mind, the child spirit, the loverboy, the teacher, the testy old man, and a thousand other things. And she loves me, in spite of everything, and, at times, -- and with a secret, knowing, and only barely wicked smile, -- for everything that I am.

---