Lindaland
  Lindaland Central 2.0
  The Greatest Scientific Minds

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   The Greatest Scientific Minds
Valus
Knowflake

Posts: 1927
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 28, 2009 04:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

...are at work

right now

using state-of-the-art equipment

and funded by the government

(the taxpayers)

they're at work

doing research

they're gonna find it

another curious detail

something you didn't know

about the nocturnal mating-habits

of the Bornean Orangutan

(or some such miscellany)

is this the best we can do?

can't we find a better use for them?

can't they find a better use for themselves?

the keenest practical minds

the ones who see through microscopes

cataloguing and categorizing bugs

do they see the BIG PICTURE?

do we?

don't we all struggle to see it

and to place ourselves somewhere

where we may do some good?

but sometimes we forget

we get caught-up

mixed-up

we forget what's real

important

or we realize, suddenly

that what we thought mattered

is meaningless

or worse

bottomless

like numbering the hairs

on the back

of an Anatolian Black Goat

IP: Logged

GypseeWind
Knowflake

Posts: 2149
From: Dayton,Ohio USA
Registered: May 2009

posted December 28, 2009 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GypseeWind     Edit/Delete Message
Interesting topic, actually makes me think of so many things at once.
Like....the fact that the government doesn't want us to cure our major diseases which are making doctors, specialists and pharmacutical (sp?) companies very, very rich.

It makes me think of the smallest things, like why certain medical procedures can't be done more comfortably and less invasively. Although, we have come far with lasers in that area, still not as far as I feel we should.

....and it makes me wonder why stuff that is bad for you, like soda (or pop if you live in the Midwest) tastes so good, but the medicine that goes in my breathing machine, that I HAVE to take, no matter what, only comes in a$$ flavor.

IP: Logged

listenstotrees
Knowflake

Posts: 715
From: Atlantis
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 28, 2009 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for listenstotrees     Edit/Delete Message
Absolutely!

IP: Logged

ghanima81
Moderator

Posts: 118
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 28, 2009 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message
This goes back to free will if you ask me. And all of it is objective. There are different areas of science, therefore different areas of expertise and interest, and certainly who would be considered “the greatest scientific minds” could be viewed by different people in different ways depending on perspective.

If a scientist is considered “great” or brilliant shall we say, by an acceptable standard (which no doubt would have to conform to some kind of test score or comparable data) they may be brilliant in one area, the area in which they choose to study, and not so much in an area some may feel their intellect would be better suited.

Einstein was surely mathematically gifted, and sadly that brilliance was used in a most destructive manner that I’m sure he never intended, but those who saw the atom bomb as a good thing (and there were MANY at the time) would most likely have thought his intellect was being used in the right way, whereas now we see it was not.

We cannot make a person study something just because we may see it as “the big picture”, because ultimately, that is our big picture, not necessarily theirs. To force people to concentrate their efforts and studies on what we think they should be is taking away their right to be interested in what they choose, it is taking away who they are.

You are not suggesting that people deny their callings and conform to somebody else’s thinking, are you?

I hear you about the amount of money and research that is governmentally funded that could be used in other ways, (i.e. healthcare and human condition research, but that’s MY opinion of what matters in my big picture) but these scientists fight for grant money to study what they believe is important work. I would like to see somebody tell them their work wasn’t important enough and see how that went over. I’m sure they could tell us about their big picture and they would have as much conviction in it as others do about theirs, and it may not make sense to us now, but maybe their small parts will someday prove to make a difference, don’t you think?

IP: Logged

Valus
Knowflake

Posts: 1927
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 31, 2009 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

LOL, Gypsee.

LTT


Ghani,

Good points.
I agree with most,
if not all, of it.

If someone feels deeply they're pursuing a calling, then, as long as they're not hurting more than helping, I'm all in favor of what they're doing. In fact, I think they should be payed for it -- enough to feed, clothe, and shelter themselves comfortably. Their yearly allowance should not exceed $20,000, or fall below $15,000. And they should not be subject to ridicule on a daily basis from people who disagree with their lifepath. If I criticize them, I am criticizing what I see as the excessive funding allotted to them. By excessive, I mean, in excess of $20,000. If they receieved, say, less than $10,000 a year, I wouldnt make a peep.

Also, let's clarify, exactly, who faces my criticism -- which, subjective or not, is still my criticism; my "vote". My suspicion is that many, if not most, of those scientists, could be happily put to other, better, work. If they are pursuing a passion -- moths, fungi, Ancient Egypt, etc. -- there is no reason they should not be able to pursue it in private, and without enormous funding from the public. If it is so important to them, let them quit their jobs and dedicate themselves to the study of their passion, on a generous allowance of $20,000 a year. But, if they wish to make more, let them do something more useful for the public. The last thing the world needs is another "expert" on Tutankamen, who makes more than 40,000 a year, and exhausts who-knows-how-many thousands of dollars on equipment, with the purpose of learning some insignificant detail about the social protocols, sleeping habits, or pottery making, of ancient peoples.

I think there are various types of scientific minds, but not as diverse as you seem to suggest. It appears to me that a zoologist could easily be a botanist, and if there is a significant difference in performance, it must have to do with their relative interest in the work. I dont think every scientist, though, feels they are best utilized in whatever work they've currently found. Sure, they fight for funding, but, most of them probably don't get what they want, and end up doing work that is already funded, albeit less useful and/or inspiring than their chosen work.

This thread is/was intended to make a fairly simple and obvious, though often under-appreciated, point. It's about the forest and the trees.. and its about Sagittarius and Virgo. There are people who have incredible talent for organizing details and doing practical, scientific work, but who lack an awareness of the Big Picture. In my wanderings, I seem to find that people who tend to be particularly gifted in Virgoan matters, tend to be less gifted in Sagittarian matters. Like every rule of thumb, there are exceptions, and there is a time to consider the exceptions, but not to the detriment of the rule. First, the rule should be understood.

We need to acknowledge and respect the FACT that people are born with different strengths and weaknesses, and that, to a great extent, our weaknesses tend to shadow our strengths -- that is, we cannot (or only very rarely, and as an exception) be strong in a certain area without being correspondingly weak in an opposing area. Hence, when a person has a gift for managing practical details, they seldom have an equal ability to regard the bigger picture, or questions of abstract and universal significance; and vice-versa.

Many people admit this truth to some extent, but still expect people to exhibit, at least in part, every gift in the zodiac -- or, maybe just, every practical gift. You don't have to be smart or talented, as long as you can do menial or organizational work, but if you cannot do menial or organizational work, it makes no difference how smart or talented you are. That's how our culture sees it. Moreover, the culture is fairly prejudiced against Big Picture people, since the present organization of society supports the notion that there ought to be a mere handful of Big Picture thinkers, at the top, and almost everybody else should be a detail man. If you are not in a position of tremendous authority, you will generally be mocked for caring too much about the bigger picture. After all, what can you do about it? But that's just my point. Big picture thinkers, -- most of them, -- can only exert a subtle and indirect form of influence. But if we only knew how powerful such "invisible authority" can be.

Anyway, I digress.

I hope I met all of your objections or concerns.


peace

IP: Logged

Polo C
Knowflake

Posts: 269
From:
Registered: Dec 2009

posted January 01, 2010 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polo C     Edit/Delete Message
AGREED!!! One's calling is the way in which one expresses their innate talents in order to serve the greater good. I think it was Professor Octavius who told Peter Parker that intelligence isn't a privilege, it's a gift and should be used for the good of mankind.

I am a Virgo so I guess this would predispose me to detailed thinking, is that what astrology suggest? Sagittarius would then be the Big Picture people, is that right?

IP: Logged

ghanima81
Moderator

Posts: 118
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 04, 2010 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message
Valus,

It's like with anything else you talk about, I'm struggling to see how your "big picture" is THE big picture, or what exactly that means. I know there are people who agree with this vision of yours, but I do not believe that there is a collective "big picture" here. Not in this culture, not now, not anytime soon will enough minds be in alignment for there to be complete harmony with ONE ideal. It's not in our nature, we are all too different. I see you are trying to make a point that in this ideal everyone would be able to do what they wanted, be free, and still live/eat/have shelter, but it's total Communism. It looks good on paper, sounds like clever enough of an idea, but logistically, it will not work because there is still some entity in POWER or ONE purpose for it all. You are so against conformity, but you are basically saying that these scientists should CONFORM to some grand scheme with ONE vision.. An "allowance"? I don't get it, dude. I'm trying, and I do see the good you are putting into what you are saying, I know you are hoping to have this idea work out for everyone's best interest, but to say that people who are doing THEIR LIFE's WORK should only make a certain amount of money to do it??? And these are people that are actually studying the world around them, probably earning around $50k, not some sports star drinking, partying, having affairs and crashing their cars and making 9 figures...

You cannot force people to study what they don't have an interest in just because they are inclined to scientific study. How pi$$ed off do you get when everyone tells you to get off your butt and do something with YOUR intelligence? Something other than what you are doing here? Something that THEY would consider being for the "greater good"? This is my frustration with you and the hypocricy thing...


quote:
I dont think every scientist, though, feels they are best utilized in whatever work they've currently found. Sure, they fight for funding, but, most of them probably don't get what they want, and end up doing work that is already funded, albeit less useful and/or inspiring than their chosen work.

I'm just curious as to what work you are aware of that scientists are out there performing unhappily. As with any job out there, this is up to an individual and how much they put into GETTING what they dream. It cannot be left up to the collective to expect them to then turn their sights elsewhere, we should be encouraging them to move forward with their hopes and goals.

Also, just because somebody has a biolgoy degree does not a botanist make them. Most people who study a field in science specialize in certain areas. My sister in law has a biology degree, but she did all of her further studies and apprenticeships on hooved animals and I'm quite sure that she would have to be COMPLETELY retrained to experiment with plants or be able to get a job where she did. Trust me, she has tried.

quote:

Hence, when a person has a gift for managing practical details, they seldom have an equal ability to regard the bigger picture, or questions of abstract and universal significance; and vice-versa.


I do not agree with that. Maybe you're meeting the wrong people.

Polo C,

And what happened to Professor Octavius? Like everyone else, he succombed to his weakness, his emotions, and became a tyrant rather than continue his "big picture" work. I feel that this thread is taking out the HUMAN element.


IP: Logged

Valus
Knowflake

Posts: 1927
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 04, 2010 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Ghani,

You aren't reading what I'm writing. There is a HUGE difference between what I am proposing and what is being demanded of me. I am not demanding, or asking, or even encouraging anyone to do anything other than what their heart desires. I am, in fact, suggesting that they be materially supported by the larger community for doing precisely that. However, I am saying that they should not be given excessive amounts of money, for technology, research, or whatever, if they cannot show that their work is helpful to mankind. Will those millions be better spent letting that scientist indulge the most remote aspects of his fantasies? Or, will it be better spent feeding, clothing, housing, and healing people who lack these things?

I require the basic necessities, access to a library or internet (facilities and technologies recognized as highly useful, not just to me and my work, but to billions of other people), pen and paper, and a little quiet space, in order to pursue my vocation, and to do what I wish with my intelligence. The people I'm talking about are provided with state-of-the-art facilities and devices in order to pursue their vocation. I am suggesting that, like me, they could do much of their work without the hi-tech equipment (that is, without the exhorbitant funding). So, what I ask for myself, I ask for them, and what I demand of myself, I demand of them. Where, then, is the hypocrisy?

I'm well aware that it takes a consensus, ghani, and I'm also well aware that consensus is manufactured. The least and the most I can do is share my perspective, and thereby cast my vote for an ideal of my choosing. Movements in history take off for reasons we don't always understand, and the ideas that a man holds independently, one day, become a common ideal. I was born into a world where certain ideals and expectations, -- formed by people who are very different from myself, and who have no understanding of people like myself, -- were forced on me. I see no problem in conceiving of a world where people are free to pursue their own ideals.

The democratic ideal is another one that looks beautiful on paper, Ghani, but, in order for it to work, people need to be exposed to progressive thinking. In the 60's, the majority of Americans were in favor of war in Vietnam. Why? Because their subjective ideals managed to agree somehow on the wrong course of action? Or because they trusted leaders who misled them?

quote:
As with any job out there, this is up to an individual and how much they put into GETTING what they dream.

This is a fallacy that corrupt authorities love to promote. If you are unhappy, it is your own fault. Don't question your government, or the organization of society. Just knuckle down and, if you have enough faith, and work hard enough, a place will open up for you, whether in Nazi Germany, Czarist Russia, or right here in the good ole' U.S. of A.

Moreover, the people who are the most vivid dreamers are not usually the most concerned with actualizing their dreams. It's generally the one's who can barely make out their visions who feel most compelled to give them form. True dreamers are content to dream. We need food, shelter, clothing, and a little kindness, or, at least, understanding, shown us. We don't need to put the world to work in order to manifest our vision of a better mousetrap, or a better useless knick-knack, for that matter.

quote:
Most people who study a field in science specialize in certain areas. My sister in law has a biology degree, but she did all of her further studies and apprenticeships on hooved animals and I'm quite sure that she would have to be COMPLETELY retrained to experiment with plants or be able to get a job where she did. Trust me, she has tried.

What's your point? If your sister had not already been trained to be a biologist, she would lose no time learning botany. I'm not saying a boilogist is educated to be a botanist, but that the skill set appears the same to me, so that a person fit to study biology would be equally fit to study botany. The only difference would be their desire to do the work. But, since I'm suggesting that they do whatever they desire, and be payed more only for work that the collective values, and which they may or may not enjoy doing, this shouldn't pose a problem.

quote:
I feel that this thread is taking out the HUMAN element.

Interesting. I feel this society is taking out the human element, and this thread is attempting to align our priorities with the heart, with harmony, freedom, and compassion. Does a "Democracy" dictated by montrous corporations strike you as particularly human?

IP: Logged

Valus
Knowflake

Posts: 1927
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 04, 2010 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

That's right, Polo.

IP: Logged

ghanima81
Moderator

Posts: 118
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 04, 2010 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message
It's always funny to me when you mention "Nazi" anything because I feel a strong Hitler like philosophical vibe from your approach of sharing your Ideals. Revolutionary, and the need to "force" people to study what YOU deem necessary and "for the greater good". You are aware of this correlation, I take it? You seem to have such an affinity to animals and their wellbeing, but are always the first person to put down a HUMAN being for not living up to your view of their potential.

Just an observation.

quote:
The people I'm talking about are provided with state-of-the-art facilities and devices in order to pursue their vocation. I am suggesting that, like me, they could do much of their work without the hi-tech equipment (that is, without the exhorbitant funding). So, what I ask for myself, I ask for them, and what I demand of myself, I demand of them. Where, then, is the hypocrisy?

First of all, you should specify if you are singling out a small group of people in your thought bog. Second, they are studying matters of science that require a bit more than "skin and bones" equiptment like a pencil and paper, and please provide me with what you consider EXHORBITANT funding and for what purpose the study. The rest of what you said makes no sense. You have justified yourself in your mind, I'm sure, but how does what you "do" require equiptment? To compare your vocation to that of a scientist by way of what is necessary in order to do the job is pretty laughable.

Why do you want to make everyone else the bad guy, Valus? You don't see it that way, I'm sure, you feel that everyone is always attacking YOU, but has anyone started any "why don't those lazy jobless philosophers get off their keisters and make a damn difference already" threads??? No. Are you facing all sorts of judgment in your daily life off the internet that makes you feel so alone and "different" and sparks you to attack everyone else and what they find important?

IP: Logged

ghanima81
Moderator

Posts: 118
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 04, 2010 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message
Just to clarify, I am not trying to be mean by attributing your posts to Hitler, merely the tone and presumed rightness you display.

You know I usually see both sides of a coin in most arguments, and that sadly, I am not as good at articulating what I feel or opine on any matter. I do stand up for myself though, and my values and beliefs, and when you sit there and call what I am saying manufactured or fallacy, it ****** me off and is rude to boot.

I don't insult your ideas, Valus. I always give you respect and "hear you out" as it were. I may disagree with you, or need more explanation before I blindly follow you, but I am not insulting about it. Or condescending. Maybe you don't see it. But I do.

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright © 2008

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a