posted January 31, 2010 03:54 AM         

The subtext is that you seem to enjoy pushing for evolution of a species that has refused to evolve on some of the simplist matters that we can conceive. How many people would agree that war is bad? Most, right? Has it gone away? No. It's stupid, but that's the way it is. The world is big enough that while one culture may try to evolve past something inevitably there's another part of the world that won't, so the cycle doesn't get broken.

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Because it gives me an opportunity to inform you that, if people can find nothing to do without their money that would make them happy, they lack imagination.

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True. However, I've never met anyone that lacked that imagination, that couldn't have fun or find happiness at times without spending money.

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I believe the honors and the sense of a job well done made him happier than the funds.

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Nah, he was being agreeable to some poor sod's complaint (and not necessarily espousing his own true thoughts):

Tim Ranger writes to dispute the claim that money brings happiness. He lived the modest life of a scholar until he inherited a massive fortune from his uncle. He bought fine clothes, but found they brought him more anxiety than pleasure. He tried to be a rake, but found himself turning into a drunkard. He kept racing horses, but soon grew bored with it. He then began building a grand house, and then found that the architects were cheating him. He ends with a promise to conclude his history another time.

"But experience is the test by which all the philosophers of the present age agree, that speculation must be tried; and I may be, therefore, allowed to doubt the power of money, since I have been a long time rich, and have not yet found that riches can make me happy."

He's a touch clearer here:

Stating that "money and time are the heaviest burdens of life, and that the unhappiest of all mortals are those who have more of either than they know how to use", Johnson praises those who spend their lives inventing new amusement for the rich and idle.

At least here he qualified the unhappiness he associates with money with not knowing what to do with it. In doing so he acknowledges that a lack of imagination and/or the inability to manage money is the reason for unhappiness amongst the rich.

When he talks of Tranquil's use of riches he makes Tranquil completely devoid of ambition (unless his pleasure comes from financing his friends), which makes Tranquil's wealth immaterial to a pursuit of happiness.

Here's a more nuanced view of happiness from him:

"A state of innocence and happiness is so remote from all that we have ever seen, that though we can easily conceive it possible, and may, therefore, hope to attain it, yet our speculations upon it must be general and confused. We can discover that where there is universal innocence, there will probably be universal happiness; for, why should afflictions be permitted to infest beings who are not in danger of corruption from blessings, and where there is no use of terrour nor cause of punishment? But in a world like ours, where our senses assault us, and our hearts betray us, we should pass on from crime to crime, heedless and remorseless, if misery did not stand in our way, and our own pains admonish us of our folly."

posted January 31, 2010 07:02 AM         

and no valus, it wasn't about you. you chose to make it about you. i get it, you scorn anyone who owns property and consider them to be evil and don't consider thier values to be good values and would like to think they are all miserable people. i get it load and clear valus...which indeed may be true for some who all that matters is things and then realise things don't bring happiness, however, not only do i think you are wrong about this, you are actually wrong about this.

it is very easy for you to say the things you say when you don't have to worry about surviving like many do. ask mel how she feels about it? or someone like me who never had the family support that allows for such lofty thoughts and philosopophies, someone who has been homeless and worked thier ass to beyond tired many times to have the comfort of food and shelter that some take for granted so easily. then you loftily can tell me how i don't deserve a nice home or nice things if i work to make it happen...or how miserable a person should be who lives comfortably..you have no right to do that valus. no right to judge. you really have no idea.

if we all lived in huts and you made your hut from straw because you chose to then you really cant complain when the rains start and the wind blows how your neighbor has got it made with the hut they labored for has no leaks and was made of hand crafted wood and mud mortar that keeps the wind and rain at bay. in fact, that might just be the one who keeps you warm and dry by leeting you in and offering you shelter from the storm.

posted January 31, 2010 10:43 AM         

Slavery lasted for how many thousands of years? Do you know that the abolitionists were discouraged with the argument that, since slavery has endured for thousands of years, it must therefor be intrinsic to our nature, etc.? Do you realize that this objection is raised whenever real progress is suggested? Do you have an idea how TINY several thousand years is? Have you read "The Chalice and The Blade" or "Food of the Gods" and are you informed of the errors taught in our schools about the origins of our civilization? Do you know that for more than ten thousand years partnership societies thrived, before the invasion of the barbarian hoardes? Do you know that the legalization and de-stigmatization of certain plants may very likely provoke a quantum leap in cultural evolution (as it did in the 60's, before being systematically suppressed)? Have you been made aware of the profound connection between human culture and the sanctioning of mind-altering plant alkaloids, and of the symbiotic relationship humans have with certain plant species which may very likely be responsible for the birth of self-conscious awareness, and for our decent from the trees? Do you know that psilocybin mushrooms were a mainstay in the peaceful, agrarian, and egalitarian societies that flourished on the island of Crete, and elsewhere, long before the Romans layed seige to the western world? Is this all way too much to process right now? I understand.

I'm not going to waste time and purpose debating Johnson's views, which the greater part of your rebuttal concerned. You may or may not be right about him, but that has no bearing on my position or this thread, really. I quoted the parts that held resonance for me -- for that, I am not bound to agree with all that he has said on the matter. Having said that, I disagree somewhat with your assesment of his words, and I think you are interpreting my own views as less balanced than they really are. I see the value of all you see the value of. But I train my sights on something which, I believe, many have not seen, and need to see.

cpn,

I have a fondness for Ecclesiastes and certain books of the OT myself. But, as I have come to understand scripture, I believe that certain pieces of wisdom are like medicine which must be prescribed at the correct time, and which may be harmful if emphasized at other times. "There is a season to every purpose under heaven," no? In the present case, I am not overcome with the grief of civic responsibility to the point where I may benefit from a "oh, don't worry about that," philosophy. I am, rather, inspired and enthused with the idealism of a great purpose -- something I see readily in the books of the NT, and particularly the words of Christ.

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you scorn anyone who owns property and consider them to be evil and don't consider thier values to be good values and would like to think they are all miserable people. i get it load and clear valus..

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You should really learn to listen to people when they tell you that you have misread them. Why would I deny my position or want to confuse it? I do not consider anyone evil. I do consider certain behaviors harmful and disruptive of the peace of the whole. I do think their values lack insight, and I would like to think of them as coming to that realization -- if that requires some disillusionment, so be it. I do not see anyone as evil, but weak and/or ignorant. While I can forgive rich people for their blindness and their choices, I cannot approve of the institutions which promote them. My grievance here is not so much with individuals, whom I love, but, with systems that cause people to sacrifice their individuality and their good sense.

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it is very easy for you to say the things you say when you don't have to worry about surviving like many do.

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It is not easy to stand up to thousands of years of prejudice, cpn, and to shift your perspective so much that it requires constant adjustment of your previous views and assumptions. That is work. It is not as hard as what so many people do -- but, then, you seem to miss the point here: that I am trying to help you and people like you. While you defend the way you live your life, I defend your right to a better one. Not one with enough comforts to offset the stresses of your working week, but, one which drastically reduces those stresses, so that those comforts become superrfluous, empty and meaningless to you. I have been very lucky, and I am the first to admit that. If I were in your position, and you were in mine, I would probably be intensely jealous and envious. But I think I could get beyond it, to embrace the truth.

Don't you see that all you are doing is defending a system which you resent and despise?? You think people like me are the enemy (so does jwhop), when we try to liberate you from the true enemies -- which are not so much individuals, as ideologies which have possessed them, and which must be rooted out. All the difficulties you have faced are due to the nature of the system you are defending. You are like a slave in chains who sees another slave escaping and fighting for freedom, and tells him that he should be as "responsible", as enslaved, as you are. I'm your only true friend in the world when it comes to this -- and you think I'm your enemy.

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if we all lived in huts and you made your hut from straw because you chose to then you really cant complain when the rains start and the wind blows how your neighbor has got it made with the hut they labored for has no leaks and was made of hand crafted wood and mud mortar that keeps the wind and rain at bay. in fact, that might just be the one who keeps you warm and dry by leeting you in and offering you shelter from the storm.

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See, that's just the thing. There is plenty of shelter for all of us, but we complicate matters and make it far more difficult than it needs to be. If we were not so convinced of false doctrines, we would not make it so hard to acquire the basic necessities, we would not be so possessive of what has already been acquired, and we would not stigmatize people for accepting the hospitality of those capable (materially and emotionally) of extending it. I am well aware that many people are more earthy than I am, and that I benefit from their generosity -- when it is shown. Are you aware of my contributions? Perhaps, if you were not so thoroughly convinced of a value system which places earthy gifts at the top of the hierarchy, and has no true sense of equality, you would see what I am offering you now.

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you keep looking down your nose at those that have, and i will just leave you alone now, like just about everyone else already has.

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Don't you realize that, from my point of view, you are being just as condescending to me, if not much more so, than I am being to you? Who has left me alone? It's Lindaland that has been deserted, cpn, not Valus. And while you say things like that, you keep openning dialogues with me and taking the "bait". How many weeks, months, years has it been now? You say I'm nuts, you say I'm impossible, but you can't stop reading my words and turning my ideas over in your head. I post a thread, and then you come to me -- I dont come to you. I rarely pick up your topics of interest, having more than enough of my own. But here you are, back again, to see what Valus is up to. I dare you to leave me alone. I bet you couldn't if you tried. And that's not a mark against you. It shows that somewhere you have recognized the value of dialoguing with me, and that, even if you disagree with my views, you know you wont find another Knowflake who is so attentive to your objections and who offers such thorough and rational responses. Deep down, I think you know that, and I think its something worthy of respect in you.

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and when you get wet and uncomfortable from the rain and storms that will surely come, knock on my door and i will let you in and give you shelter and food. then you can tell me how wrong i was..k?

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I could say the same. But the food and shelter I have to give is of another order entirely. And I am well aware of what it is my business to give, and what it is my pleasure to receive. Be well.

posted January 31, 2010 01:41 PM         

Of course this objection is raised every time real progress is suggested. People understand that some things regardless of their idiocy just don't go away. Every forward thinking thought you've produced has also been aspoused before you, right?

I get the frustration at having people argue perspectives that have already been built into your own perspective. My Libra roommate always tries to "balance" other people's ideas with information they've already taken into consideration.

The thing with you is that you claim to already agree with and know your detractors suggestions, but whatever you started the conversation with suggests that you don't really believe these things. You're stubborn, and you don't want to accept that certain things are fine. Is work evil? No. When you talk about work, do you give it the respect it commands? No. The lie, cheat, and steal thread was a good example of how you seem to perceive work, and yet despite some of the answers you got there I'm certain that you persist in thinking work is essentially BS. It can be, but it's not necessarily that. The evil of overwork isn't the work either. That evil is the toll it takes on the worker, the worker who is free to leave and find a different job whenever he or she likes. This is part of what inspires people to stop and pursue what they'd really like to do with their lives. It is sad that people are trapped by work to a certain degree. I agree with that sentiment. I just wouldn't begrudge the work or the worker.

Have you read the criticism of The Chalice and The Blade? Are you informed of her errors in archeology?

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Do you know that the legalization and de-stigmatization of certain plants may very likely provoke a quantum leap in cultural evolution (as it did in the 60's, before being systematically suppressed)?

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No, but "could" ("may very likely") is a hell of a qualifier. Switching to Geico could save you money on car insurance.

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Do you know that psilocybin mushrooms were a mainstay in the peaceful, agrarian, and egalitarian societies that flourished on the island of Crete, and elsewhere, long before the Romans layed seige to the western world?

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posted February 01, 2010 09:24 AM         

AG,

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Slavery isn't dead, is it? Nor would it seem that that impulse has left humanity.

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I'm not aware of overt slavery in the world, are you? I'm aware of a number of more subtle forms, though. I think slavery has gone underground. And it will be rooted out. Oh ye of little faith.

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Of course this objection is raised every time real progress is suggested. People understand that some things regardless of their idiocy just don't go away. Every forward thinking thought you've produced has also been espoused before you, right?

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Here is your blindness: you think that "some things just don't go away", when the only evidence you have is that they have not gone away -- yet. It's that thinking that keeps us stuck. We could move forward, we could gather momentum, if earthbound cynics would have more faith, or, at least, keep their eye on the prize. Even if your ideals have not been implemented, -- even if they cannot be implemented, the shouldn't be sacrificed; our words should always ring with an eternal truth. And if we must sacrifice, sacrifice the temporal.

To what shall we compare the course of Western Civilization?

A ship was sailing to the island of Utopia. But the captain was a drunkard and he lost the course. Soon the ship was headed in another direction entirely, but the captain and the unsuspecting crew persisted. After some days, a young man took notice of the situation and spoke thusly to the captain, "Sir, you have steered us off course. And now I see ahead of us a narrow strait and many dangerous rocks in our path, which no man has power to navigate. My captain, we should turn back, lest we meet with certain death. We must remember our destination, by all means." The older gentleman eyed him with contempt and suspicion. He replied, "My dear boy, while I do not deny that we have gone astray, it has been several days now that we have been heading north, so it must be that our direction, our course, and our destination, is north. Now do not pester me with these idealistic complaints, lad. We have heard them before. Get back in the hull with the others and start rowing, or I'll have you whipped for insolence and denied a share of the bounty; including your dinner!" The boy, proudly refusing to row, was thrown overboard. And the ship was dashed upon the rocks.

Well, let's hope it doesn't end that way.

Ag, the thing is, you need to understand that I am an artist and I speak as an artist. I often speak figuratively and overstate my case. I show one thing very starkly, and then I show it's opposite, with no less emphasis. All of this has purpose, though it may not be immediately apparent to more literal minds.

I have said many things about work. There is meaningful work and there is destructive work. Also, I think that, no matter how meaningful the work, you can still be overworked. I think you are overworked. I think your society produces too much excess and too much waste, and as a consequence of that, you are overworked. I want to know that you see this clearly, and then, if you still wish to disagree with me, go right ahead.

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Have you read the criticism of The Chalice and The Blade? Are you informed of her errors in archeology?

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I've done more research on it than you.
Let's just put it that way.

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No, but "could" ("may very likely") is a hell of a qualifier. Switching to Geico could save you money on car insurance. ... Do you know use of such causes a person to not be able to distinguish fantasy from reality?

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AG, if you are waiting for certainty, you will continue to wait. It behooves us to have faith and courage in the face of the unknown, and to make experiments and attempts in matters of deep significance. This isn't car insurance.

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Do you know use of such causes a person to not be able to distinguish fantasy from reality?

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Some research for you:

posted February 01, 2010 09:27 AM         

by Maria Sabina

It's that in me there is no sorcery, there is no anger, there are no lies. Because I don't have garbage, I don't have dust. The sickness comes out if the sick vomit. They vomit the sickness. They vomit because the mushrooms want them to. If the sick don't vomit, I vomit. I vomit for them and in that way the malady is expelled. The mushrooms have power because they are the flesh of God. And those that believe are healed. Those that do not believe are not healed.

[....] I have cured many children. Sometimes I give the children a little bit of Little-One-Who-Springs-Forth. I vomit for the children if they don't. Before beginning the vigil I ask the name of the sick person. In that way I search for the sickness and in that way I cure. If the sick person doesn't tell me the cause of his or her malady I divine it. When the sick person sweats, that reveals that he or she is going to be healed. Sweat gets rid of the fever that comes from the sickness. My words oblige the evil to leave.

For a strong toothache seven or eight pairs are eaten, that is enough. The children are taken at night; the vigil is celebrated in front of images of the saints of the Church. The saint children cure the sores, the wounds of the spirit. The spirit is what gets sick. The Curers don't know that the visions the children show reveal the origin of the malady. The Curers don't know how to use them. The Sorcerers don't either. [....] The mushrooms give me the power of universal contemplation. I can see from the origin. I can arrive where the world is born.

[....] I am not a Curer because I do not use eggs to cure. I don't ask for powers from the Lords of the Mountains. I am not a Curer because I do not give potions of strange herbs to drink. I cure with Language. Nothing else. I am a Wise Woman. Nothing else.

[....] I am wise even from within the womb of my mother. I am the woman of the winds, of the water, of the paths, because I am known in heaven, because I am a doctor woman.

I take Little-One-Who-Springs-Forth and I see God. I see him sprout from the earth. He grows and grows, big as a tree, as a mountain. His face is placid, beautiful, serene as in the temples. At other times, God is not like a man: he is the Book. A Book that is born from the earth, a sacred Book whose birth makes the world shake. It is the Book of God that speaks to me in order for me to speak. It counsels me, it teaches me, it tells me what I have to say to men, to the sick, to life. The Book appears and I learn new words.

I am the daughter of God and elected to be wise. On the altar that I have in my house is the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. I have her in a niche. And I have Saint Mark, Saint Martin Horseman, and Saint Magdalene. They help me to cure and to speak. In the vigils I clap and whistle; at that time I am transformed into God.

posted February 01, 2010 03:42 PM         

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Ag, the thing is, you need to understand that I am an artist and I speak as an artist. I often speak figuratively and overstate my case. I show one thing very starkly, and then I show it's opposite, with no less emphasis. All of this has purpose, though it may not be immediately apparent to more literal minds.

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I disagree with this paragraph in total. When do you show opposites? How have I missed that? And what is the purpose? Is the purpose fully contained within yourself?

Generally speaking, when you attack workers and work, people take the same offense that you take to people saying that you should work. Yes, there are problems involved with work, BUT the curious are already well-aware of this. News agencies don't hide news stories about how America spends more time at work than our industrialized neighbors. As far as work/non-work balance, this is also tackled by just about everyone in the workforce. Most people understand that they must spend time away from work recharging.

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I have said many things about work. There is meaningful work and there is destructive work. Also, I think that, no matter how meaningful the work, you can still be overworked. I think you are overworked. I think your society produces too much excess and too much waste, and as a consequence of that, you are overworked. I want to know that you see this clearly, and then, if you still wish to disagree with me, go right ahead.

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I was already aware of your ideas on this. Yes, I see it clearly, and yes I still disagree with mocking workers and the work they do. Many people have already said their piece about how they find work essential in some way, and beneficial besides. You know these views, and still choose to address these people again on the same topic.

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I've done more research on it than you.
Let's just put it that way.

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It's fine if you have, but you cited this work, and it's apparently flawed. It was extraneous to the conversation in the first place in my view, as is the promotion of drugs. I'm still after what's real.

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It behooves us to have faith and courage in the face of the unknown, and to make experiments and attempts in matters of deep significance.

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Exactly, and as such it behooves you to interact with the world more. Speaking about it from a detached place you can't have any understanding.

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Do you know many people have a very narrow and uninspired view of what constitutes reality?

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Probably all.

I suppose you have no course of action except to defend the mushrooms, but to the person who doesn't get into that kind of thing the defense is rather meaningless. I'm sure it is magical a lot of times. I'm not sure what else it is, and that's the part I don't like. I appreciate that a medical study was done, but when the results are mystical experiences with deep personal meaning that doesn't tell me a lot. Is doesn't tell whether the people can interact normally while under the influence. It doesn't tell me whether their intelligence increases or decreases. There's no suggestion of what might become of a nation taking it. You suppose it would be good. I'm not so sure. Especially, if the idea is that people are profoundly changed by the experience. I've seen that a lot of people don't like drugs that affect the brain for that reason. They can't deem with any certainty that the good outweighs the loss of the former person.

posted February 01, 2010 04:57 PM         

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Here is your blindness: you think that "some things just don't go away", when the only evidence you have is that they have not gone away -- yet. It's that thinking that keeps us stuck. We could move forward, we could gather momentum, if earthbound cynics would have more faith, or, at least, keep their eye on the prize. Even if your ideals have not been implemented, -- even if they cannot be implemented, the shouldn't be sacrificed; our words should always ring with an eternal truth. And if we must sacrifice, sacrifice the temporal.

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The optimist in me wants to agree with this, but the realist knows that there are qualifiers and other factors at play. The "only" evidence I have is not a trifle, but the evidence on the other side is great as well. It would seem that an idea has to have a rather clear cut universal benefit in order to gain the momentum in the first place. Actually, maybe it's not that at all. Maybe it's dependent on money and marketing. Either way it's dependent on factors greater than merely having utopian ideas.

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I've done more research on it than you.
Let's just put it that way.

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I know I already addressed this, but I have some further comments.

Is this the condensed rewrite of some big argument in favor of the author or partnership society, or is this just a way of saying that you've researched it further than me, but can't argue it? It makes it seem as if you actually haven't researched it all that much, but that could be a false impression.

I've read enough to get what it is now. It's the same notion behind Communism. I don't say that to tie it to Communism, but rather just to acknowledge that it's in the same vein and train of thought. People share. It's nice. I would guess that you'd still have to work in a partnership society. Hopefully, you wouldn't have to work as much, but there's still a lot that has to be done to keep us going.

posted February 02, 2010 12:31 AM         

I will tell you that certain substances have a strong influence on what you think of as human nature, and can help to dissolve boundaries and blocks, allowing for a more communal way of life. It's not that utopian ideas and lifestyles need to be imposed on the people by some aggressively benevolent authority, but, that they naturally become desirable and comfortable for us when we work with sacred plant medicines and allies. I can easily foresee a way of life that provides many modern conveniences, while cutting a tremendous amount of "fat". It would be possible for people to work five, ten, or twenty hour weeks, alternating with other workers on the same job, in order to accomplish all that is worthwhile. I'm not going to apologize for my criticisms of certain occupations which seem to me worthy only of scorn and ridicule. They are unworthy of the ones who practice them. Unworthy of the resources and time they consume. And if I have said some unflattering things about the everyman, or how so many people spend their days, you will find that, if my comments are frequently unsympathetic in tone, they have at least the saving grace of being true. I can see, think, and feel many things about people. Sometimes my perceptions and feelings scare those who can't understand or accept them. Sometimes they scare me, too. If you can't relate, so be it. We will never be close.

I appreciate that you took an interest, but, if you just want to give me the third degree and tell me how much you disagree with my views, my feelings, and my way of presenting them, well,... thank you. I hear you. I've heard you. Now, if you've nothing more to say, may I invite you to stand aside? If the matter is of any real significance to you, I suggest you start a thread or two of your own, or do a bit of your own research. I've provided you with the resources necessary to make a solid start of it. Good luck to you, AG.