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Author Topic:   "What Is Normal?"
Yin
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posted May 03, 2010 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

What’s Normal?

John Perry

According to the OED, the usual sense of `normal’ is:

2. a. Constituting or conforming to a type or standard; regular, usual, typical; ordinary, conventional.

But do these uses constitute a single sense? It seems that there is nothing very normative about being typical, regular, usual and ordinary; but conforming to a type or standard seems like something one ought to do. We set standards, live up to standards or fail to do so, and the like. The original use of the word `standard', was for battle flags and such, then for weights and measures; then for things more generally; there are standards of comparison, accepted standards; official standards. These generate at least conditional oughts; if you want to submit an article to The Philosophical Review, you should do your best to follow its standards. We can talk of standards for all sorts of things one doesn't aspire to be: the standard idiot. This seems ironic, though.

The word `norm' also seems to have this dual use. Things can return to the norm; this may be good or may be bad. But norms are supposed to be rules, things one ought to follow, at least in appropriate circumstances. Let's legislate a bit, and distinguish between the use of normal as typical, and the normative use.

Now is some cases, one ought to do what people typically do. If people in England typically drive on the left, one ought to drive on the left when in England, however intrinsically absurd that may seem. That's a pretty important ought. If people in England hold the fork in their left hand, perhaps one ought to do that too, although it's not so important. These are both matters of conventions, solutions to a coordination problem, according to David Lewis, although what the problem that holding a fork in one's left hand solves is not terribly apparent. I'm not sure what Lewis said about etiquette. You can look it up.

But in general there seems to be a slide from the typical or average to the normative and required where there is no particular rationale for it. Teenagers, as we know, like to dress like their peers, and so do adults, for that matter. Dressing differently than the people around you usually suggests that you are identifying with a different group as your peer, not ignoring peer-pressure altogether. It seems that what we regard and handsome and beautiful are not what is typical, strictly speaking, but sort of an averaging of the faces and bodies we encounter.

In the areas of physical and mental health, it is often a bit difficult to separate the average and typical side of being normal and the normative, meeting standards side. If my blood pressure is normal, that seems like a good thing; is it that normal means average, and people on the average have a healthy blood-pressure? Or is it that normal means the blood-pressure one has when everything is working the way it should? If a doctor said that virtually everyone has an abnormally high blood-pressure, we'd understand what she was getting at. One the other hand, if I am abnormally short or tall, is there any norm involved, or just what is typical and average? But then peer-pressure, or something along those lines, turns that into a standard, and the whole issue becomes medicalized, so you may be able get your kid treated if it appears he or she is going to be abnormally short or tall.

Abnormal psychology deal with the different, the aberrant, the dysfunctional, people who are different than most of us, so surely not normal in that sense. So is that roughly the same as mental health? An if someone is not mentally healthy, does than mean they have a disease? And how are the norms for mental health related to the norms for clear and logical thinking?

What a mess.



http://theblog.philosophytalk.org/2010/03/what-is-normal.html

What is normal to you?

Is being left-handed normal? What about being left-handed in a place where everybody has to write with the right hand and you are punished if you are caught sneaking in that devilish left hand?

Is having only one pair or jeans normal?
What about having only one pair of jeans in a place where you can have tens of pairs and not in any way deplete your finances, not to mention it's considered of poor taste?

Now imagine a culture that embraces shamanism. Imagine being born or developing some kind of a neurological or psychological disorder in that culture. You will most likely become the new shaman.
Now imagine a culture that treats mental illness by locking away all who display any sign of it. Compare that to the first culture. Which one is normal and which one isn't? Is that a valid question?

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cpn_edgar_winner
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posted May 03, 2010 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpn_edgar_winner     Edit/Delete Message
normal people worry me.

that being said. World wide, I am not sure how much strides have been taken, but here in the US, they are pretty much de-institutionalised, and care is changing even today, as we speak. with person centered planning. meaning, realizing all are individuals with different needs and a team of people design a person centered paln to integrate them into society as much as possible. many now hold jobs, pay bills, and do any number of things that were not options in the past.

The problem i personally have in dealing with persons with these issues, is they don't recognize boundries. if they had blood sugar problems and were having an episode, I would know exactly what to do. if they are bi-polar and having an episode, they present a danger to themselves and others and I have no idea what to do, or how to best deal with that individual and what thier needs may be. so I mostly try to avoid the situations and persons with these problems. ESPECIALLY those that refuse medications. Not sure about the shaman thing, if there is any evidence of the claim that mentally ill and shaman linkage or not, i guess I would beleive that if there were hard statistics to back up the claim. If those are provided, I will trust that it is true and factual.

since de-instituationalization, many who refuse the treatment available, end up homeless and ostracized from society.

I know personally, that I have had to deal with a loved one who does not understand how to work inside of the "norms" acts out, lashes out, says unwarranted hurtful things, and how I eventually had to deal with it, is not have that person in my life and not deal with it at all. it was the safest option. the other option is, you take abuse after abuse of someone who has no concept of even the fact that what they are doing is over the line and mean, a person can only take so much. So the right choice for me is to protect myself from potential abuse, verbal and otherwise, pray for the person and go on with my life. I can not help that particular individual, nor do i want to be thier verbal punching bag, so I stay completely away.

the particular individual i am writing about, got worse over time, and now is in poor health in thier 60's, 3,000 miles away, with no one available to help. and no one will, due to the fact that people like to be treated with respect and they have no idea how to do that.

I don't have simple answers yin, I wish i did, as it is very sad to me.

so i guess my answer would be,
i don't care how many pairs of jeans anyone has.
or which hand they write with.
nor do i think institations are the answer for people with social skills problems, nor do I think shamanism is the solution, as I feel shamans more than anyone would treat others with the utmost respect, and I am not sure those with these illnesses qualify them for that. as respect seems to be something they don't even comprehend.

since I don't know the answers, I just try my best to avoid those individuals, as most seem to have self control problems and I really don't want to be in the line of fire that they find perfectly acceptable. I don't have a masters in behavoiral science but since I can't help them and they hurt me, i just try to avoid the situation. knowing I have a loved one who suffers alone. there isn't much I can do about it.

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Good questions, Yin.

Sometimes I wish we could regress to the "good ole days" of the the 1940's and 50's, when you knew who your enemies were and (after the war) things were superficially peaceful and "normal", and hardly anybody had heard of the civil right's movement, or women's liberation, or animal rights, or gay marriage, or psychedelics, or polyamory, or shamanic healing, or...

It's just not the same.

But every now and then we get to sweep important issues under the rug and enjoy a brief return to "normalcy". It's almost like Ozzy and Harriet.

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

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Lara
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posted May 03, 2010 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lara     Edit/Delete Message
NORMAL??

ummm normal to be is the kiss of death. It makes me reach for the sick bag or break out in a rash. It's on a level with "nice".

As far as IQ's Valus, i'm happy to see i'm in the 4% and massively ABnormal

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schr�dinger's cat.........& LEXIGRAMMING... is my Passion!
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posted May 03, 2010 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
Ewwwwwwwwwwwww!
The normalcy of the 1940s and 50s???????????
Those were some of the creepiest bigoted stifling times!
"shudder"
My generation tried to put an end to all that fake nicey nice which hid the terrible ugliness of what really was going on.....and let folks know they did not have to live in a McCarthy like world, with faux enemies....
with hate.....

I find it odd you would want such a world....
a world which would have either had you committed by now, and or jailed you.

------------------
Everyone is a teacher...
Everyone is a student...
Learning is eternal.
}><}}(*>
.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schr�dinger's cat.........& LEXIGRAMMING... is my Passion!
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posted May 03, 2010 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
Lara!
quote:
NORMAL??

ummm normal to be is the kiss of death. It makes me reach for the sick bag or break out in a rash. It's on a level with "nice".

As far as IQ's Valus, i'm happy to see i'm in the 4% and massively ABnormal



LOL!
Me too!
LOL! Not enough range on that graph however!
PS.Also you would be 1% or far less!
------------------
Everyone is a teacher...
Everyone is a student...
Learning is eternal.
}><}}(*>
.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥

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katatonic
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posted May 03, 2010 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
yin as far as cultures go i don't think you can use the word "normal". normal within a culture, yes, but between cultures doesn't work. it's too much like apples and oranges.

the different uses of the word make it hard to pin down. personally i don't care for being normal but have learned after many years of discriminating against them that many so-called normal people are anything but!! they just don't go around pushing their individuality under your nose in a blatant way. i even wrote a song about that once when i was fed up with all the youth parading around in their identical "abnormal" gear and attitudes...

as to the special people in your last example, they can be normal if their specialness can be found to serve a purpose. did you ever read the "four gated city" by lessing? it traces the evolution of a schizophrenic character from "crazy" and useless to "telepathic" and of crucial importance in saving the human race when the communication grid goes down. fascinating.

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AcousticGod
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posted May 03, 2010 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
What 4%? There is none suggested in the IQ chart. The only mention of percentage is the cumulative amount of society at the bottom.

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schr�dinger's cat.........& LEXIGRAMMING... is my Passion!
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posted May 03, 2010 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
I noticed that too.
http://www.thesmartbaby.com/iq_chart.htm
IQ chart
Designation

Intelligence interval
Average 85 - 115
Above average 115 - 125
Gifted 125 - 135
Highly gifted 135 - 145
Genius 145 - 155
Genius 156 - 165
High genius 166 - 180
Highest genius 181 - 200

The following is a chart of I.Q. scores from 100 to 202. The rarity column shows how many people in the general population are expected to achieve this percentile or higher. For example, 1 out of 100 people are expected to achieve an I.Q. score of 137 or higher.
I.Q. Percentile Rarity (1/x)
100 50 2.0
101 52 2.1
102 55 2.2
103 57 2.3
104 60 2.5
105 62 2.7
106 65 2.8
107 67 3.0
108 69 3.2
109 71 3.5
110 73 3.8
111 75 4.1
112 77 4.4
113 79 4.8
114 81 5.2
115 83 5.7
116 84 6.3
117 86 6.9
118 87 7.7
119 88 8.5
120 89 9.5
121 91 11
122 91.5 12
123 92.5 13
124 93.3 15
125 94.1 17
126 94.8 19
127 95.4 22
128 96.0 25
129 96.5 29
130 97.0 33
131 97.4 38
132 97.7 44
133 98.0 50
134 98.3 60
135 98.6 70
136 98.8 80
137 99.0 100
138 99.1 110
139 99.3 140
140 99.4 160
141 99.5 190
142 99.57 230
143 99.64 280
144 99.70 340
145 99.75 400
146 99.80 500
147 99.83 600
148 99.87 700
149 99.89 900
150 99.91 1,100
151 99.93 1,400
152 99.94 1,700
153 99.95 2,200
154 99.96 2,700
155 99.97 3,400
156 99.977 4,000
157 99.982 5,000
158 99.986 7,000
159 99.989 9,000
160 99.991 11,000
161 99.993 15,000
162 99.995 19,000
163 99.996 24,000
164 99.997 30,000
165 99.997 6 40,000
166 99.998 1 50,000
167 99.998 6 70,000
168 99.998 9 90,000
169 99.999 2 120,000
170 99.999 4 160,000
171 99.999 5 220,000
172 99.999 66 300,000
173 99.999 75 400,000
174 99.999 81 500,000
175 99.999 86 700,000
176 99.999 90 1,000,000
177 99.999 93 1,300,000
178 99.999 95 1,800,000
179 99.999 96 2,500,000
180 99.999 97 3,500,000
181 99.999 98 5,000,000
182 99.999 985 7,000,000
183 99.999 989 9,000,000
184 99.999 992 13,000,000
185 99.999 995 20,000,000
186 99.999 996 30,000,000
187 99.999 997 40,000,000
188 99.999 998 50,000,000
189 99.999 998 7 80,000,000
190 99.999 999 1 110,000,000
191 99.999 999 4 150,000,000
192 99.999 999 6 220,000,000
193 99.999 999 7 300,000,000
194 99.999 999 8 500,000,000
195 99.999 999 85 700,000,000
196 99.999 999 90 1,000,000,000
197 99.999 999 93 1,500,000,000
198 99.999 999 95 2,000,000,000
199 99.999 999 97 3,000,000,000
200 99.999 999 98 5,000,000,000
201 99.999 999 986 7,000,000,000
202 99.999 999 991 11,000,000,000

------------------
Everyone is a teacher...
Everyone is a student...
Learning is eternal.
}><}}(*>
.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww!
The normalcy of the 1940s and 50s???????????
Those were some of the creepiest bigoted stifling times!
"shudder"
My generation tried to put an end to all that fake nicey nice which hid the terrible ugliness of what really was going on.....and let folks know they did not have to live in a McCarthy like world, with faux enemies....
with hate.....

Well said.

quote:

...a world which would have either had you committed by now, and or jailed you.

See: Facetious

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Yin,

You might appreciate this.

I thought up an interesting slogan,
for a T-Shirt, cap, or bumper-sticker:

"Either I'm a GENIUS,
Or you're F*CKING RETARDED.
You be the judge."

I think that says it all.

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schr�dinger's cat.........& LEXIGRAMMING... is my Passion!
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posted May 03, 2010 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
See: Facetious

quote:
fa·ce·tious
   /fəˈsiʃəs/ Show Spelled[fuh-see-shuhs] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2.
amusing; humorous.
3.
lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person.

No Valus...I was not being Facetious.
Many folks were committed or jailed for doing their own thing so to speak.
Your lifestyle and all would have totally freaked folks out back then. They would have
most likely locked you up.
That is not meant as an insult Valus.
Those were very narrow minded and bigoted intolerant times.

------------------
Everyone is a teacher...
Everyone is a student...
Learning is eternal.
}><}}(*>
.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥ ¸.☆¨¯`♥

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katatonic
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posted May 03, 2010 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
the trouble with IQ tests is the multitude of very bright people who will never get high scores on them because they don't relate to the "normal" background on which the tests rest. and the multitude of "genius" or very high IQs who frankly find it hard to function in the world of "normal".

kind of the same trouble as with the word normal itself

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

No, LEXX.

I was being facetious.

You didn't get the joke.

Nevermind.

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AcousticGod
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From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
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posted May 03, 2010 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Actually, IQ tests are quite accurate these days according to Nurture Shock by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. The "cultural biases" that were said to exist don't if I remember right (and I was listening to that section not that long ago).

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

"IQ tests are a great test of
how well you do on IQ tests."
~ (i forget who said that)

The trouble with IQ tests is the same
as the trouble with a society that thinks
it can determine who is sociable on the
basis of how well they fit into the society,
without upsetting a majority of its members.

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Valus
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posted May 03, 2010 08:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
.

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Glaucus
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posted May 04, 2010 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
I know that I am far from normal. I knew that since my special education early school years.


"Actually, IQ tests are quite accurate these days according to Nurture Shock by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. The "cultural biases" that were said to exist don't if I remember right (and I was listening to that section not that long ago)."


Actually not for many neurodivergents, especially people that have extreme autism

They tend to be very uneven compared to the neurotypical.
Many are twice exceptional. They can score low on parts of an intelligence test and score high on parts of an intelligence test. Also their considerable strengths and considerable weaknesses can balance each other out that they score average overall and/or in certain sections.

Extreme Autistics tend to score a lot higher on Matrice Raven intelligence tests that test visual problem solving skills. They tend to have problems with intelligence tests that depend on the use of verbal skills.


People with Aspergers Syndrome is a different story because they tend to have advanced verbal skills. They are just mildly autistic.
Their problems are mainly with social communications mainly as well as possible sensory issues but not as extreme as people with extreme autism.


The book,
RIGHTBRAINED CHILDREN IN A LEFTBRAINED WORLD (a book on ADHD children) discusses the problems with IQ tests for people that are rightbrained. The authors say that they should throw them out. They say that they are only for the leftbrained and wholebrained types.


but yeah

the more extreme the neurodivergence, the more likely they will have problems with IQ tests.

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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Yin
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posted May 04, 2010 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message

Raymond, see "The Horse Boy" thread if you haven't done so already. It talks about horse therapy for autistic children.
http://www.horseboyfoundation.org/

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AcousticGod
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posted May 04, 2010 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Nurture Shock is full of interesting stuff.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/nurtureshock/archive/2009/08/30/a-5-minute-intelligence-test-for-kids.aspx

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Yin
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posted May 04, 2010 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message

Thanks, AG. It looks interesting.

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listenstotrees
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posted May 04, 2010 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for listenstotrees     Edit/Delete Message
"Normal" is just a perspective given by point of perception.

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koiflower
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posted May 06, 2010 07:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for koiflower     Edit/Delete Message
.....boorish.

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