posted March 31, 2013 12:04 AM            

I wanted to join the Military but couldn't due to a host of medical problems.

However after a making enemies with Diehard Patriots- and this was when I WAS A PATRIOT- my view of the Military began to change. I started to realize about 2 years ago just how blind many pro-military supporters are and even when I was siding with the Military but expressed more moderate views esp. based from an unbiased perspective, I was attacked by other members as a TRAITOR. When I was simply stating blunt truths such as the War in Iraqi costing billions of $$$ in tax payer's money (I'll just leave it to that example).

It was at this point I realized the Military wasn't all that I made it out to be.

Recently I got banned from a Military Forum and received ostracization in a separate Military History site for stating a rather more realistic and balanced viewpoints of the Military.

Now I come from a Military Family. I got relatives either in the Military or planning to join and many friends were former Military. So I have direct experience (though I've been blinded by Patriotism and the Romanticism of Military Life for the past decade and only realized its vices 2 years ago).

In fact I intend to try to get a waiver and give another shot at joining the Military once I'm done with College and get become Athletic and Muscular.

But with all the recent things I've experienced in other sites I thought this would be a great topic.

I now see the Military in shades of gray albeit in a negative light esp. after all the attacks of being called a traitor and being ostracized by other pro-Military folks in several forums for simply giving balanced viewpoints (even when I was a blind patriot who was willing to serve America should I be drafted without a thought). None the less I give credit when due and openly admit there are positive things with the Military such as many of the nation's brightest minds serving in it and it being a gate way to more opportunities for a better life.

But I won't deny all the negatives such as the tendencies of many enlisted men to look down on civilians as though civilians were a sort of second-class citizens and the fact hat many Soldiers are crooks and even former criminals.

Anyone here in the Military, was in the Military, or have relatives who are/were in the Military?

What are your experiences? If you don't have any affiliation what so ever with the Military feel free to post your opinions. Its OK if you post anti-Military statements so long as you can give a cohesive opinion or back up your claim, I no longer blindly worship the Military and am open to hearing criticisms.

posted March 31, 2013 02:39 AM            

My only major grievance with the American military is the rape culture supported (do NOT confuse me with saying "all soldiers are rapists," and I do expect that one day it will be people in the military who correct that), and that alone would keep me out (but it's not the only reason I never joined). After this thread gets moved to the political forum I'll "back my claim."

posted March 31, 2013 08:43 AM            

I understand where you're coming from.

But believe me I SEEN a lot of my share of blind Soldiers who refuse to see that Military can be such a flawed institution that its SCARY .

Years ago I would have supported the troops too but he more I opened my eyes to the nature of the institution and the people working in it, the less I want to support the troops. I've been called a traitor too many times even when I wasn't stating anything treasonous such as how so many lives were wasted in the recent War in Iraq or how billions were wasted in so supporting so many corrupt dictatorships all over the world.

posted April 03, 2013 05:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I'd never join, but I don't necessarily think those in it are bad. I also see a difference between "supporting the troops" and "supporting warmongering," they're 2 different animals, and deploying troops while cutting their support at home or put them in battle with only mediocre protection due to corruption with the military industrial complex as many "pro-military" (more accurate to say "pro-military industrial complex") politicians do is a lot less supportive of the military than those who want to bring them home, IMO.

My only major grievance with the American military is the rape culture supported (do NOT confuse me with saying "all soldiers are rapists," and I do expect that one day it will be people in the military who correct that), and that alone would keep me out (but it's not the only reason I never joined). After this thread gets moved to the political forum I'll "back my claim."

ETA: deleted.

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posted April 09, 2013 10:11 AM            

“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.” ~Albert Camus

“The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” ~Albert Camus

“Nothing doth more hurt in a state than that cunning men pass for wise.” ~Sir Francis Bacon

“It is the responsibility of every citizen to question authority.” ~Benjamin Franklin

“The first principle of non-violence is the non-compliance with everything that is humiliating.” ~Mohandas K. Gandhi

“The ideally non-violent state will be an ordered anarchy. That State is the best governed which is governed the least.” ~Mohandas K. Gandhi

“The State represents violence in a concentrated and organized form.” ~Mohandas K. Gandhi

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

“Preventive war is like committing suicide out of fear of death.” ~Otto von Bismarck

Who will guard us from the guardians? ~ Juvenal

“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” ~George Orwell

“Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.” ~George Orwell

“The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” ~George Orwell

“There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.” ~Henry David Thoreau

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” ~Voltaire

“It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere.” ~Voltaire

"Patriots always talk of dying for their country and never of killing for their country. " ~Bertrand Russell

The basic problems facing the world today are not susceptible to a military solution.
John F. Kennedy

War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
John F. Kennedy

When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die.
Jean-Paul Sartre

In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason.
Ernest Hemingway

Man has no right to kill his brother. It is no excuse that he does so in uniform: he only adds the infamy of servitude to the crime of murder.
Percy Bysshe Shelley

The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
David Friedman

War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace.
Thomas Mann

The tragedy of modern war is that the young men die fighting each other - instead of their real enemies back home in the capitals. - Edward Abbey

At the bottom of a good deal of bravery... lurks a miserable cowardice. Men will face powder and steel because they cannot face public opinion. - E.H. Chapin

The measure of the state's success is that the word anarchy frightens people, while the word state does not. - Joseph Sobran

Anarchism is founded on the observation that since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others. - Edward Abbey

A man must consider what a rich realm he abdicates when he becomes a conformist. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media. - Noam Chomsky

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche

The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is apt to spread discontent among those who are. - H.L. Mencken

Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state. - Noam Chomsky

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. - Henry Louis Mencken

To revolt is a natural tendency of life. Even a worm turns against the foot that crushes it. In general, the vitality and relative dignity of an animal can be measured by the intensity of its instinct to revolt. - Mikhail Bakunin

Without deviation progress is not possible. - Frank Zappa

The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. - Mikhail Bakunin

If we choose, we can live in a world of comforting illusion. - Noam Chomsky

Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want rain without thunder and lightning. - Frederick Douglass

Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best. - Edward Abbey

posted April 09, 2013 10:12 AM            

Einstein, prior to 1933:

"A human being who considers spiritual values as supreme must be a pacifist."

"No person has the right to call himself a Christian... so long as he is prepared to engage in systematic murder at the command of an authority, or allow himself to be used in any way in the service of war or the preparation for it."

“Force always attracts men of low morality.”

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."

"That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him."

"We all know that when a war comes, every man accepts the duty to commit a crime -- the crime of murder -- each man for his own country. Those who realize the immorality of war should do their utmost to disentangle themselves from this old idea of military duty -- and so become liberated from slavery."

"My pacifism is an instinctive feeling, a feeling that possesses me because the murder of people is disgusting. My attitude is not derived from any intellectual theory, but is based on my deepest antipathy to every kind of cruelty and hatred."

"I believe serious progress [in the abolition of war] can be achieved only when men become organized on an international scale and refuse, as a body, to enter military or war service."

"I appeal to all men and women, whether they be eminent or humble, to declare that they will refuse to give any further assistance to war or the preparation of war."

"That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor... this plague-spot of civilization, ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes on in the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them! How vile and despicable war seems to me! I would rather be hacked into pieces than take part in such abominable business."

"The minority, presently the ruling class, has the school and the press, and usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and use them as its tool."

Einstein, after 1933:

"I am the same ardent pacifist I was before. But I believe that the tool of refusing military service can be advocated again in Europe only when the military threat from aggressive dictatorships toward democratic countries has ceased to exist."

"It is my belief that the problem of bringing peace to the world... will be solved only by the employing of Gandhi's method on a larger scale."

"I can identify my views almost completely with those of Gandhi. But I would (individually and collectively) resist with violence any attempt to kill or to take away from my people or me the basic means of subsistence."

"I admire Gandhi greatly but I believe there are... weaknesses in his program. Nonresistance is the most intelligent way to face difficulty, but it can be practiced only under ideal conditions... It could not be carried out against the Nazi party today."

"I believe that Gandhi's views were the most enlightened among all of the political men of our time. We should strive to do things in his spirit; not to use violence in fighting for our cause, but by nonparticipation in what we believe is evil."

"Noncooperation in military matters should be an essential moral principle for all true scientists."

"The more a country makes military weapons, the more insecure it becomes: if you have weapons, you become a target for attack."

"As long as armies exist, any serious conflict will lead to war. A pacifism that does not actively fight against the armament of nations is and must remain impotent."

"I repeat, armament is no protection against war, but leads inevitably to war... Striving for peace and preparing for war are incompatible with each other... Arms must be entrusted only to an international authority."

"The goal of pacifism is possible only through a supranational organization."

"Do I fear the tyranny of a world government? Of course I do. But I fear still more the coming of another war or wars. Any government is certain to be evil to some extent. But a world government is preferable to the far greater evil of wars."

"The war is won, but the peace is not."

"To my mind, to kill in war is not a whit better than to commit ordinary murder."

"I have always been a pacifist, i.e., I have declined to recognize brute force as a means for the solution of international conflicts. Nevertheless, it is, in my opinion, not reasonable to cling to that position unconditionally. An exception has necessarily to be made if a hostile power threatens wholesale destruction of one's own group."

"I am a dedicated but not an absolute pacifist; this means that I am opposed to the use of force under any circumstances except when confronted by an enemy who pursues the destruction of life as an end in itself."

"Organized power can be opposed only by organized power. Much as I regret this, there is no other way."

"Unless the force of peace, based on law, gathers behind it the force and zeal of religion, it can hardly hope to succeed... There must be added that deep power of emotion that is a basic ingredient of religion."

"I made one mistake in my life -- when I signed that letter to President Roosevelt advocating that the bomb should be built. But perhaps I can be forgiven for that because we all felt that there was a high probability that the Germans were working on this problem and they might succeed and use the atomic bomb to become the master race."

"Politics is more difficult than physics."

posted April 09, 2013 12:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by doommlord:
I am in process of enlisting into the military since there is a required service law....

Been quite the frustration dealing with them....and I'm not optimistic about the future.

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posted April 09, 2013 12:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by doommlord:
I am in process of enlisting into the military since there is a required service law....

Been quite the frustration dealing with them....and I'm not optimistic about the future.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
So in essence you get drafted?

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Yep against my will XD

My single child status and problematic legs have designated me to "non-combat service" which was quite the relief (although some of my friends do not want to serve in combat but are still designated there)

posted April 09, 2013 01:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
doommlord
{{{hugs}}}

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posted April 09, 2013 03:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I'd never join, but I don't necessarily think those in it are bad. I also see a difference between "supporting the troops" and "supporting warmongering,"

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posted April 09, 2013 04:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Doommlord,

It's service to your homeland. Serve honorably and make your peace, even if its against your will. I did my time against my will too, but I made the most of it. I was in a combat vocation and I was partially trained by your good people.

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Its not my homalend XD

posted April 09, 2013 04:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by T:

Don't forget that a large number join because they don't know what else to do with their lives and see it as a way to succeed, escape or do something better than work a minimum wage job and barely scrape by and/or want benefits for their families and reasons along those lines.

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Good point. Well said. The people who design the system and give the orders share a much larger portion of the blame. No doubt, they prefer to see us squabble amongst ourselves than give attention to the true sources of inequality and injustice.

posted April 09, 2013 05:46 PM            

After I posted, I caught this headline:

Police: Army recruiter shoots teenage recruit, then self

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/us/maryland-army-recruiter-murder-suicide/index.html

Sad story.

This stuck out as it ties in with what I said:

quote:

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Miller had just been accepted at Arizona State University and enlisted to help pay the tuition, her father said. She wanted to be a psychotherapist, he said.

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I was also reminded of the most recent episode of Teen Mom 2, I saw.

One young mom is about to rush into marriage with her boyfriend because he decided to enlist (in order for them all to survive), but can only get benefits for them all if they are married. He said he'd give her the money he will receive - $2000 per month and the day they marry, they all get health benefits. They both seem like good kids and are trying to do what is best for their new family.

It did strike me that it seems to be more about what kind of benefits they will get and as they see it, a way to better all of their lives and survive. I did not hear him once talk anything about being a "patriot" or wanting to serve his country for whatever reasons. Not to say he might not feel that way, but it never came up. It seemed to be more about their only option for survival and a better life. I thought that was interesting although not uncommon.

A guy I dated many many years ago had served in the military many years before I even knew him and I realized he did it mainly because he came from a long line of military men and it was almost expected of him to join.

He later broke some rules in order to get kicked out.

I think that is something that happens a lot too. People who come form military fanatic families almost feel (or don't even think) they have any other choice or that they would be letting their families down, or that they look up to them and want to follow in their foosteps, even if only to gain respect and make them proud.

posted April 09, 2013 05:55 PM            

quote:

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But I won't deny all the negatives such as the tendencies of many enlisted men to look down on civilians as though civilians were a sort of second-class citizens and the fact hat many Soldiers are crooks and even former criminals.

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That also came to my mind. Because I know a number of troubled kids from my high school did the same. Then later some other men that were friends with a family member of mine.

For many criminals it can be their only hope of a "normal" or better life, or a way to try and turn it all around and stay off the streets.

posted April 10, 2013 05:30 PM            

doomlord!!! May God protect you!

please read LYRICS of this song...