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Author Topic:   Warning Blast From the Past...by a Democrat
jwhop
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Posts: 350
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 07, 2009 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
June 07, 2009
Betrayal of the Democratic Party
By George Joyce

The "righteous wind" that has propelled the American left to unprecedented success over the last year has forced most of the American right into an underground bunker. Those few conservative politicians like Dick Cheney who remain topside are blasted with an additional gale force of invective and vitriol. In the left's ferocious desire to implement "change" there seems to be little patience for any meaningful dialogue about what America should become.

The leftist onslaught that met Dick Cheney's recent defense of his country pales in comparison however to the ugly reception Democrat Al Smith received in 1936 when he challenged his own party's attempt to remake America. A four term Democratic governor from New York, Smith had lost the 1928 presidential election to Republican Herbert Hoover. In 1932 Al Smith joined in to support Roosevelt for President but by 1936, despite the immense popularity of FDR, Smith began to panic: his party and his country were becoming unrecognizable to him.

Although many Democrats tried to pin the "treason" label on Al Smith for his stand against the New Deal legislation the dubious moniker had trouble sticking. Growing up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, Smith dropped out of school at 14 in order to support his family after his father's untimely death a year earlier. Smith never made it to high school or college but he did manage to develop sensitivity to life on the street while working at a local fish market and at other odd jobs.

When he ran for New York State Assembly at age 30 Smith was known as a spokesman for the working-class immigrant and as a man of the people. During his political career in New York Smith was known as a staunch progressive who championed workers' rights, women's rights, and child labor protections. Smith was also a leading voice for the rights of minorities and defended the civil rights of all Americans, white and non-white.

Al Smith however was also known as a great believer in upward mobility, self-reliance and in taking advantage of the opportunities afforded by the free-market. Al Smith, in other words, was an American and a Democrat. What alarmed Smith in 1936 however was the realization that FDR's New Deal was in essence something rather anti-American that also threatened the very identity of the Democratic Party. In Smith's words:

"There can be only one atmosphere of government -- the clear, pure, fresh air of free America or the foul breath of communistic Russia."

Despite FDR's popular acclaim Smith made the decision to warn his fellow Americans and his fellow Democrats by radio address on a cold January evening in our nation's capitol in 1936. The title of Smith's address was "Betrayal of the Democratic Party." The dramatic speech contained a series of talking points designed to persuade his countrymen that a new kind of Democratic Party was actively undermining the Constitution and replacing it with something closer to Soviet style socialism.

What were Al Smith's talking points? In a word: chilling. After prefacing his speech by noting that he was "born in the Democratic Party" and expected "to die in it" Smith reiterated his belief that the Democratic Party "belonged to all the plain people in the United States." Something, however, had gone terribly wrong:

Partisanship above Patriotism

Smith began his speech by describing his difficult decision to "talk to the American people against the Democratic Administration." He was compelled to speak out however because he sensed an alarming threat "to the fundamental principles upon which this Government of ours was organized." The most glaring threat in Smith's estimation was "the arraignment of class against class:"

"It has been freely predicted that if we were ever to have civil strife again in this country, it would come from the appeal to passion and prejudices that comes from the demagogues that would incite one class of our people against another."

Smith however had worked in menial jobs and understood that life was a bit more complex than the simple equation of "bad rich" and "good poor." Smith said that during his life he had met "some good and bad industrialists" but also "some good and bad laborers." The man who never made it to high school understood, in other words, a reality mostly hidden from the pampered and educated leftist crusader.

By splitting the country along class lines in order to appeal to voters the Democrats were guilty of placing partisanship above patriotism. "This I know," said Smith, "that permanent prosperity is dependent on both capital and labor alike." By vilifying industry and finance the Democrats were in effect closing the door "to any permanent recovery" in America. The Democrats' oversimplified and self-serving strategy of class warfare, in other words, was purchased at the expense of the national interest.

Government by Bureaucrats

"The next thing that I view as being dangerous to our national well-being," said Smith, "is government by bureaucracy instead of what we have been taught to look for --government by law." Smith worried that the enormous explosion of the federal bureaucracy under FDR would provide the executive branch with a dangerous set of freedom smothering instruments. Conditions would be ripe in addition for the emergence of autocratic government. Smith made a point here to quote from one of FDR's speeches to Congress:

"In 34 months we have built up new instruments of public power in the hands of the people's government. This power is wholesome and proper, but in the hands of political puppets of an economic autocracy, such power would provide shackles for the liberties of our people."

Note how FDR's use of "public power" and "people's government" (not to mention "wholesome and proper" governing) is set against the "shackles" characteristic of the American businessman's "economic autocracy." Smith rightly saw through FDR's class warfare rhetoric however:

"Now I interpret that to mean, if you are going to have an autocrat, take me - but be very careful about the other fellow."

Smith astutely observed that "the vast building up of new bureaus of government" would drain "resources of our people in a common pool of redistributing them, not by any process of law, but by the whim of bureaucratic autocracy." Smith again demonstrates his concern that whereas due process of law is vital for protecting the little guy's freedom, bureaucratic autocracy would strangle it.

The 1932 Platform

By 1936 it was obvious to Smith that Democrats had been the victims of a bait and switch campaign by the Party elders. "Millions and millions of Democrats like myself" said Smith, voted for a specific party platform in 1932 but "what we want to know now is why it wasn't carried out." What were those Democratic promises of 1932? According to Smith, they included the following planks:

First Democratic plank: "We advocate immediate and drastic reduction of governmental expenditures by abolishing useless commissions and offices, consolidating departments and bureaus, and eliminating extravagance to accomplish a saving of not less than 25 per cent in the cost of the federal government."

But the facts four years later proved otherwise for Smith: "No offices were consolidated, no bureaus were eliminated, but on the other hand, the alphabet was exhausted. The creation of new departments - and this is sad news for the taxpayer - the . . . cost of government is greater today than it has ever been in any time in the history of the republic."

It seems almost surreal to hear a leading Democrat defend the American taxpayer against big government. But Smith was just warming up:

Another Democratic plank: "We favor maintenance of the national credit by a Federal budget annually balanced on the basis of accurate Federal estimate within revenue."

Smith was especially incensed at this "balanced budget" promise by Democrats: "How can you balance a budget if you insist upon spending more money than you take in? Even the increased revenue won't go to balance the budget, because it is hocked before you receive it. What is worse than that?"

Smith continued on what he called the "unbalanced budget" theme by predicting that "the great backbone of America" - the middle class - would end up paying off most of this debt:

"Forget the rich - they can't pay this debt. If you took everything they have away from them, they couldn't pay it - they ain't got enough. . . . This debt is going to be paid by that great big middle class that we refer to as the backbone and the rank and file, and the sin of it is they ain't going to know that they are paying it. It is going to come to them in the form of indirect and hidden taxation. It will come to them in the cost of living, in the cost of clothing, in the cost of every activity that they enter into, and because it is not a direct tax, they won't think they're paying, but, take it from me, they are going to pay it!"

Another Democratic plank: "We advocate the extension of Federal credit to the States to provide unemployment relief where the diminishing resources of the State make it impossible for them to provide for their needs."

For Smith this particular plank "was recognition in the national convention of the rights of the states." In other words, when voting for the Democrats in 1932 Smith took the above plank to mean that the Feds would not threaten the autonomy each State to administer their own relief programs. What frightened Smith was that by 1936 "the Federal Government took over most of the relief programs - some of them useful and most of them useless." Again, for Smith the little guy was more threatened by an imposing and threatening Federal Government than he was by an administration that respected states rights.

Another Democratic plank: "We promise the removal of government from all fields of private enterprise except where necessary to develop public works and national resources in the common interest."

Smith pulled few punches on this particular plank:

"NRA [National Recovery Administration]! A vast octopus set up by government, that wound its arms around all the business of the country, paralyzing big business, and choked little business to death. Did you read in the papers a short time ago where somebody said that business was going to get a breathing spell? What is the meaning of that? And where did that expression arise? I'll tell you where it comes from. It comes from the prize ring. When the aggressor is punching the head off the other fellow he suddenly takes compassion on him and he gives him a breathing spell before he delivers the knockout punch."

It's hard for Americans today to imagine the anti-business climate that saturated FDR's presidency, especially after his re-election in 1936. In his marvelous book The Mind and the Market, Professor Jerry Muller noted that most historians have linked the economic slump of 1937 to "Roosevelt's rhetoric and policies" which "made businessmen reluctant to invest." Rather than appeal to and find common ground with American business interests Roosevelt, in Muller's words, responded to this latest 1937 economic slump by unleashing "the dogs of anticapitalist vilification." Muller for example quotes Harold Ickes, FDR's Secretary of the Interior, who lashed out at "big business Fascist America" which Ickes equated with "an enslaved America." Muller sums up the core belief of this remarkable chapter in Democratic Party history:

"If there was one core belief shared by the diverse policy makers in the New Deal, it was a suspicion of businessmen in general and big business in particular."

Another Democratic plank: "We condemn the open and covert resistance of administrative officials to every effort made by congressional committees to curtail the extravagant expenditures of government and improvident subsidies granted to private interests."

On this plank Smith asks his fellow Democrats: "Now, just between ourselves, do you know any administrative officer that has tried to stop Congress from appropriating money? Do you think there has been any desire on the part of Congress to curtail appropriations?"

Smith was worried that the "haphazard, hurry-up passage of legislation is never going to accomplish the purposes for which it was designed." He accused Congress of throwing "the money of the people right and left" while never informing the public what the appropriations were for. In addition, Smith criticized Congress for appropriating the people's money and recklessly using the funds to subsidize what he called "private groups." Smith had the audacity, it seems, to think that it wasn't proper for Congress "to tax all the people to pay subsidies to a particular group."

Democratic Party or Socialist Party?

Smith concluded his devastating analysis by asking his fellow Democrats to perform a simple experiment:

"Make a test for yourself. Just get the platform of the Democratic Party, and get the platform for the Socialist Party, and lay them down on your dining room table, side by side, and get a heavy lead pencil and scratch out the word "Democrat," and scratch out the word "Socialist," and let the two platforms lay there."

Smith then asked Democrats to consider the record of the Democratic Administration from 1932 to 1936 and pick up the platform that came closest to matching its record of achievements:

"You will put your hand on the Socialist platform. You don't dare touch the Democratic platform."

For Smith, this wasn't "the first time in recorded history that a group of men have stolen the livery of the Church to do the work of the devil." In other words, Smith believed that a small group of men - "young Brain Trusters" - had hijacked the Democratic Party and were remaking it in Marx and Lenin's image. What was known back then as the "Brain Trust" consisted of law professors from Columbia and Harvard whom FDR invited in to be among his closest New Deal advisors. Al Smith however saw the Brain Trust as the root of "all our troubles." In his words, these socialist academics from Columbia and Harvard were threatening to destroy the American roots of the Democratic Party:

"It is all right with me if they want to disguise themselves as Norman Thomas or Karl Marx, or Lenin, or any of the rest of that bunch, but what I won't stand for is to let them march under the banner of Jefferson, Jackson, or Cleveland."

Simply put, Smith's beloved party of "the plain people of the United States" was becoming merely a tool for elite, socialist intellectuals to shroud a deeper and more sinister program of undermining the American "principles of representative democracy."

Smith appealed to skeptical Democrats over the radio to simply read "the greatest declaration of political principles that ever came from the hands of man - the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States." He told them to put down their books, forget about listening to economics professors, stop studying party platforms and simply glance at America's founding documents for this disturbing revelation:

"There is only one of two things we can do. We can either take on the mantle of hypocrisy or we can take a walk, and we will probably do the latter."

Democrats, in other words, who endorsed FDR's Administration were nothing other than hypocrites.

The Constitution

At this point in his speech Smith reiterated the importance of understanding the Constitution as the supreme guardian of America's citizens, including its "plain people." We must never forget, said Smith, that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights "were drafted by refugees and sons of refugees, by men with bitter memories of European oppression and hardship . . ." Smith cited the Tenth Amendment for example as being one of the most crucial for keeping the Feds in check and for guaranteeing "home rule" and for preserving "freedom of individual initiative and local control."

"Congress has overstepped its bounds," said Smith. "It went beyond that Constitutional limitation, and it has enacted laws that . . . violate the home rule and the State's right principle."

From our perspective in 2009, it takes an almost monumental effort to entertain the image of a leading Democrat defending the "little guy" against an encroaching Federal Government. Smith truly believed however that local control and individual initiative were the essential building blocks of self-determination - a core Democratic belief. I take Smith here to be saying on a broader level that FDR's socialist experiment threatened to destroy the little guy's self-confidence - his belief in himself. This would be the most profound indictment of the Democratic Party.

In addition, Smith warned Democrats that the "chorus of Yes-Men in Congress" was undermining another sacred Constitutional protection - the separation of powers. "In the name of Heaven," said Smith, what had happened to the independence of Congress?

"Why, they just laid right down. They are flatter on the Congressional floor than the rug on the table here. They surrendered all their powers to the Executive. . . . We all know that the most important bills were drafted by the Brain Trusters, and sent over to Congress without consideration, without debate, and . . . without ninety percent of them knowing what was in the bills."

Smith said that when you threaten the balance of power theory of democratic government you "rattle the whole structure." Again, for Smith the loser in all of this in the end was the little guy who depended on the Constitution and not the Federal Government to maintain his freedom.

Suggested Remedies

Nearing the end of his speech Smith noted that "it is pretty tough on me to have to go against my own party this way, but I submit that there is a limit to blind loyalty." He then proceeded to outline several remedies for what he called "the success of my party."

First: "I suggest to the members of my party on Capitol Hill here in Washington that they take their minds off the Tuesday that follows the first Monday in November. Just take their minds off it to the end that you may do the right thing and not the expedient thing."

What Smith was suggesting here was a major challenge to his fellow Democrats in Congress. Instead of self-interest, think of your party, your nation, and your legacy as a servant of the people. But most importantly, think of those whom the Founding Fathers sought to protect - the normal American citizen who was guaranteed freedom from oppression by the Constitution.

Second: Smith implored his fellow Democrats in power to "make good" on the 1932 platform.

Third: "I suggest to them that they stop compromising with the fundamental principles laid down by Jackson, Jefferson, and Cleveland."

Fourth: "Stop attempting to alter the form and structure of our Government without recourse to the people themselves as provided in their own Constitution. This country belongs to the people, and it doesn't belong to any Administration."

Fifth: "I suggest that they read their Oath of Office to support the Constitution of the United States. And I ask them to remember that they took that oath with their hands on the Holy Bible, thereby calling upon God Almighty Himself to witness their solemn promise. It is bad enough to disappoint us."

Washington or Moscow

Smith concluded his speech by suggesting a sobering additional remedy: "I suggest that from this moment they resolve to make the Constitution the Civil Bible of the United States, and pay it the same civil respect and reverence that they would religiously pay the Holy Scripture, and I ask them to read from the Holy Scripture the Parable of the Prodigal Son and to follow his example."

At this point Smith addressed fellow Democrats who had heard the Siren call of socialism and had wandered dangerously away from their American roots: "Stop! Stop wasting your substance in a foreign land, and come back to your Father's house."

In a dramatic final crescendo, Smith gave what he called a "solemn warning" to those Democrats who were attempting to mix the "oil and water" of representative democracy with Soviet style socialism:

"There can be only one Capitol, Washington or Moscow! There can be only one atmosphere of government, the clear, pure, fresh air of free America, or the foul breath of Communistic Russia. There can be only one flag, the Stars and Stripes, or the Red Flag of the Godless Union of the Soviet. There can be only one National Anthem - the Star Spangled Banner or the Internationale."

In his final words, "there can be only one victor" said Smith:

"If the Constitution wins, we win. But if the Constitution - stop. Stop there. The Constitution can't lose! The fact is, it has already won, but the news has not reached certain ears." With those chilling words Al Smith concluded his courageous appeal.

Several weeks ago the Democrats' leading spokesman for the "little guy," Joe Biden, gave the Commencement address at Syracuse University. Biden, who represents the most radical, leftist, big government president in the history of America had this to say about America's plain people:

"Ladies and gentlemen, imagine a country that lifts up the windows of opportunities instead of slamming them down that has occurred over the last 15 years. . . . Imagine a country where every single American has a fighting chance, just a fighting chance, and a country that lives up to our promise of our ideals and leads the world with the power of our example, not just the example of our power. This is the story of America"

Sorry Mr. Biden. When the American businessman is vilified, when bureaucrats rule instead of the law, when taxpayers are robbed to pay for useless federal agencies, when government spends more than it takes in, when the middle class is forced to pay for increasing federal debt, when states rights are disrespected, when socialist intellectuals drive national policy, when Congress cowers in the face of the Executive Branch and fails to read its own legislation no one in America will have a "fighting chance" other than the new Robber Barons leading the Democratic Party.

As a great Democrat once put it, it's all right if you want to disguise yourself as Karl Marx or Lenin. But please don't claim to be marching "under the banner of Jefferson, Jackson, or Cleveland." When Democrats rob the little guy of his initiative and supplant it with Big Brother, the party in power is not living up to "the promise of our ideals" Mr. Biden.

Some, like Al Smith, may even wonder if the Party is over.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/betrayal_of_the_democratic_par.html

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katatonic
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posted June 07, 2009 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
"There can be only one atmosphere of government -- the clear, pure, fresh air of free America or the foul breath of communistic Russia."

things haven't changed much have they? still worrying about russia. still all black or white. still no one else in the world.

and as for the right going underground are you kidding? they are making more noise than a herd of stampeding elephants (oops, an unintentional pun).

would you care to explain why FDR was so popular? i haven't got the paranoia to understand the complexities of this plot.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 07, 2009 04:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
So katatonic, was there something specific in that article with which you disagree? If so, how about sharing it with the rest of us?

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katatonic
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posted June 07, 2009 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
!

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jwhop
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posted June 07, 2009 11:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Nothing specific eh, just the usual blah, blah, blah?

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katatonic
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posted June 08, 2009 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
jwhop i am too busy to keep repeating myself. i asked you a question and made a couple of points about the erroneous logic involved in your post. if you don't want to answer that's fine. but i'm not playing the shunting game anymore...the ball is in your court. you want to let it drop then go ahead.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 08, 2009 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Nothing erroneous in my post or in the article. You failed to state any specific part of the article with which you disagree.

This is usual for you. You are inclined to attempt oblique attacks and a general whine without any specifics and can never be bothered to provide any source for your "general disagreements"...which usually run to defending and excusing Marxists, Socialists and Socialist systems of government and institutions.

It's not possible to have a rational discussion with you katatonic.

As I told you before; since you refuse to provide sources for so called information you post here, I see no reason to provide you with any sources to back up what I say here.


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katatonic
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posted June 08, 2009 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i'm sorry but you are either a liar or blind. i have posted plenty of sources - actually the one i refused to post was for protection of others not on this board and you know that - despite the fact that you act as if they are not sources at all.

and if you read the article you posted and my remarks (which included quotes both direct and summarized)about it then you have no question to ask about specifics. i addressed certain assertions made there and i think most people reading here would have no trouble figuring out what i was talking about. i also asked you a question which you apparently can't answer hence the prevarication and feints.

if you want to evade the topic why put it out there?

as i said above i have more important things to do than repeat myself. i don't pet porcupines either.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 08, 2009 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Actually katatonic, you accused Bush of being a liar but couldn't or wouldn't back that up with a single source...because there aren't any credible sources to back up that statement.

As for those whom you say have had their Constitutional rights shredded by the Patriot Act...and Bush, you also couldn't back that up with a single credible source.

Now katatonic, if your latter accusation was true there would be people crawling out of the woodwork to say it happened to them. Yet, not one leftist organization has put forth any names of those who had their rights infringed by Bush via the Patriot Act. Proof of your accusations should be only a few keystrokes away...if they were actually true.

Your refusal to name your friends who you say fall into that category is touching but it's impossible for me to believe only your friends were squished by Bush via the Patriot Act...if it were true at all.

You have a habit of making wild accusations you can't back up with any credible sources.

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katatonic
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posted June 08, 2009 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
and you have a habit of changing the subject by slurring the characters of people whose questions make you uncomfortable. so? i can admit my mistakes and have done. your turn.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 08, 2009 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
You have a habit of making wild accusations you can't back up with any credible sources.

Mr. Irony returns!

But Jwhop, she's got the same logical Mercury in Virgo as you!

As far as the Patriot Act goes, I don't recall you proving Kat a liar. I don't recall you proving anything of the sort in that thread, Mr. I-want-credible-sources.

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katatonic
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posted June 08, 2009 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
=.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 08, 2009 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
As I've often told you acoustic...and still you don't get it.

Proving something didn't happen is a fools game and I'm not playing.

If you, or if katatonic want to make accusations..which you have, the burden of proof falls on you...and katatonic.

Both of you have made wild accusations and were unable or unwilling to back them up with any affirmative proof.

Now, I know you would both like to change the subject from a real Democrat blasting the Socialist regime of FDR; and I know it sets your teeth on edge whenever anyone says anything negative about THE ONE, THE MESSIAH O'Bomber but O'Bomber is going down the very same road as FDR only on steroids and it's going to produce the very same results. A prolonged deep recession caused by government policy. There's even evidence O'Bomber is attempting to replay the Great Depression game. His Marxist buds in the Congress have already crossed the line, with O'Bomber approval, with "buy American" rhetoric and Canada which is a big trading partner has passed "buy Canadian" legislation in retaliation.

Last time that was tried it touched off a world wide trade war and depression.


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jwhop
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posted June 08, 2009 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Canada passes "Buy Canada" type resolution
2 days ago

WHISTLER, British Columbia (AP) Canadian mayors have passed a resolution that would potentially shut out U.S. bidders from local city contracts.

The resolution is in retaliation to "Buy American" provisions in President Barack Obama's stimulus bill. Mayors voted 189-175 to approve the resolution at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities conference in Whistler, British Columbia.

The resolution says the federation should support cities that adopt policies that allow them to buy only from companies whose home countries do not impose trade restrictions against Canadian goods.

The mayors also voted to hold off on any action for 120 days while Canada is negotiating a possible compromise with the U.S. government.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gGHdn2-M3NXsZe3jw0Y9ic42H1lgD98LDCG82

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AcousticGod
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posted June 08, 2009 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Proving something didn't happen is a fools game and I'm not playing.

Proving something DIDN'T happen is the same as proving something DID happen, and frankly you made it worse for yourself by providing the positive. You called Kat and Sunshine LIARS for their assertion. That's what you have to prove in the positive. Prove your allegation. And remember your own definition of lie while you're at it. Prove that Kat and Sunshine's intention was to deceive alongside proving that what they said was innaccurate. If you can't...well...I doubt anyone will be surprised. Least of all me.

quote:
Now, I know you would both like to change the subject from a real Democrat blasting the Socialist regime of FDR

I didn't cause this turn of events. As far as I can in the posts above (which I acknowledge could have been edited before I arrived), it was YOU who went down this path diverting your own thread.

quote:
and I know it sets your teeth on edge whenever anyone says anything negative about THE ONE, THE MESSIAH O'Bomber but O'Bomber is going down the very same road as FDR only on steroids and it's going to produce the very same results.

I'm honestly not sensitive in the slightest to anything you have to say about Obama. I don't mind that you or anyone else has a problem with him, and I'm quite certain he won't do everything perfect.

If history is repeating itself with Obama, which is an argument I don't think any rational person would try to make, then the result of what happened then, is the result that we should expect now, which is that our nation will only grow stronger and gain influence in the next eight decades. I don't buy in to fearmongering. Whatever happened to the idea that Conservatives were supposed to be the sunny optimists?

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katatonic
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posted June 09, 2009 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
well done, jwhop, bait and switch accomplished.

as to this proposed resolution, and our own "buy american" one, didn't we just sell them a piece of general motors? sounds like another useless piece of paper, eh?

now would you please answer my question about mr roosevelt?

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fatinkerbell
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posted June 09, 2009 03:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fatinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message
How about thinking about it like this: The time period in question here was pretty unique ... the Great Depression. As I understand it the New Deal and the NRA were rather extreme measures that could be likened to giving the American economy CPR - Cardio-Pulmonary Ressucitation. If an economy is on the brink of death, who would object to some foul, socialist, big government air being breathed into its failing lungs?

------------------
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter.

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jwhop
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posted June 09, 2009 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
No katatonic, I will not answer your question about Roosevelt....until you provide sources..including dates, events and direct Bush quotes from credible sources for your nonsense that Bush lied.

While you're at it, you can also provide the name of one American citizen who had his Constitutional rights violated by Bush...as you allege happened.

Well acoustic, I don't know why you put up those sunglasses. Perhaps to prevent people from looking in your eyes and seeing the vacancy signs. The lights are on but no one is home.

You continue to prove you know nothing about the history of the United States...or for that matter, world history.

FDR did not lay the foundations for 80 years of American prosperity, strength and influence in the world.

FDR keep America in a depression which only World War II ended...when idle US manufacturing sprang to life to produce war materials and people went back to work.

His "New Deal" consisted of putting people to work in temporary jobs on US government payrolls...instead of putting people to work in the private sector. He threw government money at every crackpot leftist project he could find which contracted the money available in the private sector...which is the engine of job creation and his "New Deal" legislation was declared "unconstitutional" by the US Supreme Court. FDR operated as a one man dictator and got called on it just like O'Bomber is going to get called on his unconstitutional actions.

The similarity between what Roosevelt did and what O'Bomber is doing are striking. It didn't work in the 1930s and expanding the scope, power and cost of government which deprives the private sector of operating capital isn't going to work now either.

The 1929 stock market crash was not the Great Depression. That came later and was caused and prolonged by 3 actions of which 2 were direct government action and the 3rd was caused by a quasi governmental agency.

The Smoot Hawley Act..an act of Congress put tariffs on foreign produced goods...which were retaliated against by other nations who were US trading partners. That put millions out of work when American goods couldn't be sold oversees and unemployment in the US rose to 25%.

The Federal Reserve withdrew billions of dollars from circulation...when a billion dollars was really a billion dollars. That caused businesses all over America to close/fail...and put more people out of work because businesses couldn't borrow operating capital. The money was good...not inflated but rather deflated but no one had any.

Roosevelt spent US taxpayer money on government projects and piled up debt at a pace never before seen in America. Every dollar consumed by government is a dollar taken out of the private sector...and the result of that is predictible. A flat, on it's back economy either in prolonged recession or depression. Roosevelt prolonged the depression from 1933 until the US entered the war..or, some would say until the US started supplying war materials to Britain.

O'Bomber and his goon Marxist comrades should know all about this and if they don't, they should know about what is called the "Lost Decade" in the Japanese economy. Japan tried exactly the same things FRD tried and O'Bomber is trying now. Vastly expanding government deficit spending to spend yourself out of recessions/depressions has a predictible tragic result.

If history is repeating itself with Obama, which is an argument I don't think any rational person would try to make, then the result of what happened then, is the result that we should expect now, which is that our nation will only grow stronger and gain influence in the next eight decades..acoustic

Irrational people shouldn't be talking about the rationality of others acoustic. You're in no position to judge what is rational and what is not.

Proving something DIDN"T happen is not the same as proving something did happen acoustic. Another irrational statement from you.

However acoustic, since you persist:
Prove YOU ARE NOT A CROSS DRESSING GAY GUY PEDOPHILE.


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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 607
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 09, 2009 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
still in all it is very strange that such a terrible president was RE-ELECTED 3 times, isn't it? i mean, there was plenty of opportunity to get someone else in there! BEFORE the new deal unemployment was at about 36%. it went way down, then it's true it went up again, but not as badly as before.

as to the dollar being a dollar then, a 1932 dollar was not worth the same as a 1900 dollar. money has been inflating for a very long time and roosevelt is not the sole perpetrator of that problem.
http://www.ronscurrency.com/rhist.htm

jwhop there is a great deal more to this than communists vs capitalists, as there was then. in fact while al smith was worrying about communist russia hitler was getting his act together just as right now, while you are worrying about a hispanic woman being able to identify with people who grow up in the shade, the British nazi party AND other european countries including italy, the home of the original nazi party, are sending members to the european parliament for the first time.

and speaking of proving innocence it was you who accused ME of being a liar and you have yet to come near proving it. i don't have to prove my innocence, as you keep saying, so take it to the judge.

i am sorry jwhop, i believe you mean well, but you are incubating fascism in your fear of communism which seems counterproductive to me. i also have problems with too many regulations, but to say justice has been blind in this country is to ignore history, and to say the only evil is socialism is simplistic and naive in the extreme.

it would be far better to get involved in THIS administration which is actually soliciting input from the general population in a way that has not been done since the 18th century. as my mother used to say "how can you influence a system you don't take part in?"

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 09, 2009 05:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Jwhop,

It always astounds me what you throw together in an attempt at logic.

quote:
FDR did not lay the foundations for 80 years of American prosperity, strength and influence in the world.

I didn't say that he did. I said that what followed FDR were those things. What I implied was that the United States regardless of whether FDR was right or wrong got through his Presidency just fine, and continued to garner influence and wealth. Even if we assume you are 100% correct with regard to FDR, the nation wasn't destroyed. Life went on. America went on. There are always going to be retards in office making potentially disasterous decisions that in the continuum of life don't amount to much.

quote:
Irrational people shouldn't be talking about the rationality of others acoustic. You're in no position to judge what is rational and what is not.

I'm not the one losing every argument he starts lately.

quote:
Proving something DIDN"T happen is not the same as proving something did happen acoustic.

It is. It's merely a matter of restating. And, yes, I do persist.

Before you try to keep down this road with Kat, you go ahead and PROVE your cockamamy idea that she lied about Bush's administration spying on innocent individuals not connected to terrorism.

You made the allegation, and you seem to believe that only a person making an allegation has to prove something, so get to it. No more of this ******** dishonesty or skirting around the subject. Prove your point. Hop to it!

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 350
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 12, 2009 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
The discussion was about what FDR had done and what hadn't worked...which was just about all of what FRD did.

Take your sophistry and stuff it acoustic. You attempted to credit FDR with 80 years of American influence and prosperity. Only leftist nuts believe that.

We don't need to spend the next 2 generations digging out from under the mountain of debt O'Bomber is loading on our children and grandchildren. Impeach this brain dead Marxist Socialist now.

Yeah acoustic, you're a legend in your own mind but it's only in your little leftist bubble world of unreality that you've ever won anything. What's astounding is that you think this is some kind of competition acoustic. If it is, it's only on your side. I'm not the one with something to prove. On the other hand, your self image is all wrapped up in fostering the belief you're right. Unfortunately, that's seldom true.

katatonic attempted to re-spread the lie that Bush lied. That's the very same lie you attempted to spread here acoustic...and got your head handed to you for your efforts.

I notice no one has come forward to specify what lie Bush told, when he told it, where he told it and why it was a lie...a deliberate, intentional written or oral statement which when Bush said it or wrote it.... knew it wasn't true but said or wrote it anyway to deceive those who heard it or read it. That's the main definition and thrust of definitions for the word "LIE"

Now acoustic, when are you going to prove you're not a cross dressing gay guy Pedophile.


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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 607
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 12, 2009 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
oh..hello! i did NOT say bush lied, i said he created an aura of terror and the laws that made it possible for innocent people to be wiretapped, charged with terrorism and detained on such charges. as for "bush lied, people died" maybe someone was quoting a popular bumper sticker that was plastered on cars everywhere over the last few years? i missed that if it was ever said here.

as to FDR yes,he tried a lot of things and some of them didn't work. but he gave people hope and he put them to work. the unemployment rate DROPPED during every year of FDR's presidency EXCEPT for 1933...when evidently what he was doing had not had any effect yet...or he had not found the right solution yet...

"Social Issues
Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1957 (Washington, D.C., 1960), p.70. Depression Era Unemployment Statistics

Year Population Labor
Force Unemployed Percentage of
Labor Force
1929 88,010,000 49,440,000 1,550,000 3.14
1930 89,550,000 50,080,000 4,340,000 8.67
1931 90,710,000 50,680,000 8,020,000 15.82
1932 91,810,000 51,250,000 12,060,000 23.53
1933 92,950,000 51,840,000 12,830,000 24.75
1934 94,190,000 52,490,000 11,340,000 21.60
1935 95,460,000 53,140,000 10,610,000 19.97
1936 96,700,000 53,740,000 9,030,000 16.80
1937 97,870,000 54,320,000 7,700,000 14.18
1938 99,120,000 54,950,000 10,390,000 18.91
1939 100,360,000 55,600,000 9,480,000 17.05
1940 101,560,000 56,180,000 8,120,000 14.45
1941 102,700,000 57,530,000 5,560,000 9.66 "
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1528.html

this graph is a little compressed here but the columns are: year, population, labour force, unemployed and percentage as listed at the top...

oh, sorry, in '38 it went up for awhile (but well below the peak rate) and presumably the wartime production jwhop mentions helped bring it down again.

one thing you are overlooking, jwhop - and my source here is my 10th grade american history class - is that ALL depressions have tended to end with wars which put many men to work (in the armed forces!) and add some of the rest of the population to the workforce to support the war effort. of course wars have the effect of lowering the total population too, which has been called culling by some, cynical but it smacks of the truth somehow...

it wasn't roosevelt who created the depression. unemployment had reached record levels by 1932 and though they did climb slightly in his first year they proceeded to go down and stay well below those levels from '33 onwards.

the growth and shrinking of govt over the years is a cyclical thing and it is shortsighted i think to vilify OR credit the president of the time for being on the spot. if reagan was elected on a small govt platform, it was because that was what people were ready and asking for; and the same goes for obama today. the fact that reagan INCREASED govt spending (on the military mostly) while lowering taxes was part of the problem we are in today.

i would be the last to blame bush for everything that has gone wrong with our economy. in the first place i don't believe any president has the power to be given all the blame OR the credit. but i find it distasteful that he and his cohorts take credit for "no more hits" when guess what? we had NEVER BEEN HIT before except for pearl harbour...and that was a military base off the continent, not the middle of our biggest city onland. 9/11 happened on their watch and the fact that it didn't happen again, well THAT part just goes along with our long record of not being hit.


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