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Author Topic:   it can't happen here, right??
pire
Knowflake

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posted June 15, 2009 06:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
Who is pretending to know something about politics only because he has read an article about the subject ?

A country does NOT need a constitution to function. England is an example.

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wheels of cheese
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posted June 17, 2009 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
i don't believe in joining "against" groups of any kind, but the apparent rise of the far right, racist parties in europe in answer to the perceived "immigration problem" needs something done about it.
any suggestions for POSITIVE action that might be taken?

I'm really interested in the original question here. I have been pondering this myself, especially after finishing a book by Primo Levi last night.

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katatonic
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posted June 17, 2009 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
yes, it's a bit of a stumper; i mean the immigration problem is real, and not just in england, but england IS small and doesn't have the resources to carry so many; but there has to be a better way than bovver boots and an all white britain...

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pire
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posted June 18, 2009 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
it might sound stupid, but be ready to fight. like our grand pa have done in the past.

the difference with today is that we think we don'tt have to. it will all work out with prayers.

i think if the needs come, we'll have to go and fight for our beliefs. die eventually for them.

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katatonic
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posted June 18, 2009 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
it may come to that but hopefully we have learned SOMEthing since WWII...that is not a solution i want to plan for though. at some point humans must surely cross the line to resolving their problems without killing each other or intimidating their enemies into line...?

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 32
From: Grafenwohr, Germany- but my heart is in Iraq
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 18, 2009 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message
To answer your question jwhop... Kat and her other disillusioned folks are like the same people that voted for Obama without knowing the facts. Here in Germany, there is a shift against the socialism that is killing this country. I am fortunate because I am still covered by the Military as far as healthcare goes. If I was a local national I would be at the mercy of the "chart system" (which the UK has been getting deeper and deeper in) that allows docs to deny treatment to those "that cannot perform or are not financially 'worth' it. Wow.. does that sound familiar?

Then again.. if Obomber gets his way we will be right where these socialist countries lie in the healthcare strata. We'll be lucky if the actuaries do the numbers and find us productive enough to "treat".

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katatonic
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posted June 18, 2009 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
hi pidaua. which question was that you are answering? this thread was about the rise of the neonazis and what we might possibly do to prevent it. i am not sure why you think i am disillusioned or who "my folks" are, but it would be nice to be able to have a conversation with you that didn't include mud-slinging...

as someone who lived in the uk from 74-95, i have to say that BEFORE margaret thatcher started dismantling the national health it was BETTER than what any of my us counterparts were experiencing here. one thing that the conservatives did do was to create a mountain of paperwork for national health doctors that bogged them down (in the name of cost-cutting) and made it difficult for them to attend to their patients with the same dedication they were used to; also private insurance became an option, but because everyone, rich and poor, had the public health available, it really was an OPTION, and therefore much more affordable and better service than insurance companies here provide. my wealthy sister in law was advised by a private oncologist that the treatment she would receive at the royal brompton for her cancer would equal anything the private sector could give her and save her 10s of thousands of pounds. she followed that advice and the treatment she got was as good as anyone i know here and COST NOTHING.

these days no matter how much you pay for your US insurance you are not guaranteed continuous treatment, or free of being "cut off" - for every horror story about government run healthcare there is an equal one over here. but the current plan does not appear to include the sort of national, government run system europe has used, in fact it's not even hammered out yet so i would love to hear what you are objecting to?

as a member of the military you are the recipient of government subsidized healthcare, are you not? and you seem to think it works pretty well. what is it you are afraid of?

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cpn_edgar_winner
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From: Toledo, OH
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posted June 19, 2009 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpn_edgar_winner     Edit/Delete Message
interesting turn this thread took.

kat - you can not reason with unreasonable people.

with unemployment at an all time high, most kids 18-30 in this country do not have insurance. nor jobs that provide insurance. SOMETHING has to be done to reform it.

but that is not what this thread is about.

scary stuff. kat. very unsettling.

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katatonic
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posted June 19, 2009 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
hi cpn, welcome home!?

i know health insurance is not directly related to the topic...but i understand some people see it as a threat to society and therefore maybe an indirect reason for the rise of the bovver boys in england...

i am not trying to reason with anyone but it would be nice to hear something of what they DO believe in instead of all the nay-saying that is going on at present.

what confuses me is how people in the military don't see how socialistic the setup of the military is...what with subsidized housing, healthcare, even food and clothing via special stores; and of course the pension at the end of the road for career military personnel. and yet the spectre of ALL of us having access to these things seems scary. why?

as far as conservatives gaining ground in europe that's all well and good. balance is always better than runaway ANYthing...and it shows the lie in how downtrodden and undemocratic those "socialist" countries actually are. it also illustrates how the party in power, whoever, will be seen to be responsible when the economy tanks. swings and roundabouts, push-pull, whenever things get too far off center the voters come out and bring it back...

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Lyra
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From: London, UK
Registered: May 2009

posted June 19, 2009 06:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lyra     Edit/Delete Message
Who cares about any of the political parties. It's all swings and roundabouts anyway and I can't see why people get so worked up about it.

JUST DON'T VOTE!!

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katatonic
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posted June 19, 2009 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i'm not interested in the parties either. but i am interested in people being able to live their lives without the threat of either government or vigilantes using force to control them...i used to think voting was a waste of time, too. but even if politicians duck and dive around their responsibilities as laid out by the voters, there is still power in the vote. if nothing else than that it makes you think about what you want from your government...?

most people will lead pretty unchanged lives no matter what party is in power. but some parties are scarier than others. the BNP openly threatens violence against non-whites, immigrant or not - amongst other points on their platform. what if no one voted but BNP followers?

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jwhop
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Posts: 402
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 21, 2009 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
pire, in answer to your statement; no, I don't "pretend" to know anything about European politics...based on an (one) article.

Try hundreds of articles over time. Try the facts on the ground, one of which was the rejection of the EU Constitution by the "French" voters. Where were you and why are you unable to make the essential connections between the dots that the EU is operating without any Constitutional authority to do so. I'm not the one who injected an EU Constitution into the mix. That was done by EU proponents in an attempt to sway European voters into embracing the very idea of a European Union.

Bet they couldn't get Europeans to vote for the EU today.

So, what of Britain? True they don't have a Constitution per se but they do have Parliament and laws passed by Parliament which has chipped away at the foundations of freedom in Britain to the point Brits are the most heavily spied on citizens in the world...worse than Cuba, worse than the old and utterly corrupt Soviet Union. Further, there is that same mindset of petty Socialist bureaucrats trying to run every British life as though they were actually living it themselves.

Perhaps you read about the British man fined about $100 for putting out his trash can before 8am. Presumably, most British citizens who work would be at work or clocking in at 8am in the morning.

As for the BNP..of whom I know practically nothing except for what I've read on this thread; perhaps there are some in Britain who are damned tired of immigrants denouncing Britain from their soapboxes on British corners, who are damned tired of immigrants telling British citizens they are going to overthrow their government, overthrow their laws and overthrow their country and indeed "conquer them".

Now pire, what was your reaction to French foreign immigrants rampaging through French cities and setting about 12,000 cars on fire? What is your reaction to the fact there are parts of French cities which are no-go zones for police?

Pid, it's the usual here; people who cannot answer any questions or debate on point but rather attempt to nibble around the edges with evasive statements or who simply attempt to change the subject or make a relativist argument such as the argument that you have government run heath care via the US military.

Forget for the moment these are some of the finest physicians on the planet providing health care to US military service personnel and their families as part of a something for something contract while those same military personnel are risking their lives to carry out US foreign policy directives.

To compare that circumstance to the Socialist health care system proposed by the brain dead moron Socialists in the Congress and White House is...a relativist argument which cannot withstand even a casual examination.


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katatonic
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posted June 21, 2009 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i like how you attempt to diminish everything you don't agree with by calling it off-point. this thread was ABOUT the BNP and you have admittedly NOTHING to say about them. they are not new and they are playing on people's desire for a scapegoat in the current economic mess. they crop up every time there is a major recession, and they were around during the 30's too. they are the racist party of britain and the only time they make any headway is when the money is ff'd up. like the nazi party in germany in the 30's.

but you don't know anything about the topic so you sidetrack it and blame others for being off-topic! hats off to you sir.

you are the one nibbling round the edges and trying to change the subject. but you are welcome to it, i'm done focussing on the negative... off to grow my own... funny how it comes back to that, eh?

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 21, 2009 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Gee, I thought this was saying something about the so called anti-immigrant BNP.

" perhaps there are some in Britain who are damned tired of immigrants denouncing Britain from their soapboxes on British corners, who are damned tired of immigrants telling British citizens they are going to overthrow their government, overthrow their laws and overthrow their country and indeed "conquer them"."

"i'm done focussing on the negative... off to grow my own.katatonic"

Careful what you grow. There are laws...even in California.

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pire
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posted June 21, 2009 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
They are not imigrants those who set fire to cars. They are 2 nd or 3rd generation of immigrant. They have french identity card. They are french. Also, they are caught on one side between france who seem to reject them, who does recognise ONLY the good brought by colonialism, if there is any, and by an original culture of the family in which they dont find their place, having grow in france, and being french. France has parked them in estates where they felt left out and unable to evolve. Punished? Because they parents come from an ancient colony? Is it fair?

Colonisation hasnt been properly acknowledged and they are here to remind us of it.

The no go area are a consequence of french politics.

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wheels of cheese
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posted June 22, 2009 05:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
Kat said:
quote:
what confuses me is how people in the military don't see how socialistic the setup of the military is...what with subsidized housing, healthcare, even food and clothing via special stores; and of course the pension at the end of the road for career military personnel. and yet the spectre of ALL of us having access to these things seems scary. why?


Good question. I've had first hand experience of living in military accommodation (with my stepfather/mother) and it always struck me as ironic too. My stepfather buys the "Daily Heil" and is always going on about socialists and the welfare state, but living in the RAF base was like having a permanent sippy-cup of assistance. I found it stifling. If there'd been a division dedicated to wiping people's arses I wouldn't have been surprised. And when they leave they're surprised how hard it is in civvy street. Go figure.

Anyway, OT, but that seems to be the way of this thread.

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wheels of cheese
Knowflake

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posted June 23, 2009 04:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
Could join these people: http://www.uaf.org.uk/

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katatonic
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posted June 23, 2009 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
or these: http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000087.html

i think it is very important not to get drawn into FIGHTING. "you can't simultaneously prepare for war and create peace"(paraphrase from einstein)...

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 32
From: Grafenwohr, Germany- but my heart is in Iraq
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 26, 2009 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message
On the outside it may seem as though the Military is socialistic by your definition. The major difference is we have CHOICES. I don't have to live on post or in government leased housing. However, Soldiers / Families are provided with a Housing allowance to offset some of the costs in renting or house loan. The "subsidy" as you call it, is not that much different that corporations providing allowances for their employees. Since the salaries for Soldiers are often so small compared to what they would be getting paid in the civilian world, there are "subsidies" that offset the costs. Bear could be making three times what he makes now in the civilian world based on what he is trained to do. He would also be allowed to have corporate bonuses, healthcare and if they decided to move him- moving costs.

Speaking of our healthcare. We use TRICARE which has three tiers- which one can choose to move up and down the tiers. We do NOT have to go to Military docs and here in Germany we go on the economy (which is standard in a foreign country). The big difference is that the German docs have to treat us to US standards and not to German standards where it may be deemed treatment would be a waste of money. Then again, they love Americans because we PAY. Our government pays 100% for our healthcare because of the sacrifices our Soldiers give for our country.

Small price to pay.

As for the special clothes.. what are you talking about? Would that be the disgusting offrack, less appealing clothing than you would find at an outlet special store? Because that is basically what we have here. So we often have to shop for goods on the economy, using our own money. The Army doesn't give us money to go clothes shopping unless we earn it by working.

In the states we have the option to purchase goods and services on or off post. Here we are not that lucky and AAFES (the PX) is normally the only game in town unless we want to pay the inflated Euro rates. I do purchase various items offpost because I love German food and the little shops often have a great selection of cheese, wine, meats and I love their ice cream.


Socialism is hurting this region of Europe. I see it in the gas prices (which yes, we do pay less for gas on post because it is rationed to us and we don't pay the HUGE tax per liter that they do). On the economy gas is now 1.24 Euro per liter. That translates to approximately $6.60 per gallon.

So... I still don't see how the Military is an example of Socialism unless you mean another countries Military and not the US.

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katatonic
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posted June 26, 2009 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
thanks for answering, pidaua. hope you and your bear are well.

your answer jibes perfectly well with my assertion that the military has the many benefits of subsidized options. no one here is asking for MANDATORY public housing, health or pensions, but the AVAILABILITY. and though we are not in the front lines in terms of warfare, we all face the hazards of life and contribute in our own ways, whether it be raising our kids - perhaps the most difficult, underpaid and important job in the world, bringing up the next generation - or building the products sold on the market. why should a young family go without just to raise their kids just because they are not carrying a rifle? people die and suffer ill health so their kids can eat and have shoes. and one can say having a child is a choice but...

the military is also a voluntary affair these days.

in exchange for the benefits one is expected to follow orders, no? so while in the forces one's actions are somewhat contained within a box of what is allowed.

personally i would not like to see the level of socialism exercised by the forces in daily life. i have never partaken of state aid except for the national health when i was a british resident because it meant subjecting myself to more scrutiny and proscription than i cared to submit to. i paid taxes and i found the healthcare, as i have said plenty of times, to be superior to what i experienced at home - except when i was a child and lived with parents who had doctors for friends who cared for us gratis on many occasions.

however my taxes pay your wages and were the government to dole out more benefits to the general populace, it would come out of everyone's taxes as well. people who do not object to the huge expenditures of the military complex, which include your housing, health, pension and food benefits, seem to think there is no point in spending any money on the home front.

personally i would rather see less life-threatening foreign military action and more home-defense use of you and yours. i don't think america has much business being over there risking your husband's life. i appreciate his honour and courage in doing so, but i would much rather it was not asked of him. hope you can understand that.

i don't think you can create peace by warmongering. when was the last time the swiss used its army? yet every young man is conscripted at the age of 18. were they attacked, everyone OVER 18 is trained and expected to contribute to defense of the realm...

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katatonic
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posted June 27, 2009 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i like the emphasis pidaua made about "from the outside" because that is exactly my objection to people who have never left america, and are spoonfed the american party line about these other governments, judging them - from the outside. military aside, who really are not living the european life, when people get there they find things on the ground don't match up with their preconceived ideas.

pid, i have no idea what quality clothes, or even food, are available to you guys. but they are available. and in exchange you live a pretty regimented life...the word itself comes from military living...personally i would find it impossible to conform and that is one reason i never could consider joining. despite what some here may think i would actually prefer NO government to any of the manifestations i've seen lately here or elsewhere, but i don't know if "the people" are ready to get together to live and let live. could be pretty ugly at our current level of consciousness.

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pidaua
Knowflake

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From: Grafenwohr, Germany- but my heart is in Iraq
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 27, 2009 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message
Kat,

I will respond to you tomorrow as I am about ready to hit the hay (go to bed LOL). One thing I will say is that you may be surprised to know this... but I am almost 40 and I have only been married to the Military for 3 years (on Monday). My background is corporate / biotech research with an emphasis in microbiology.

I never thought I would be married to a Soldier and I certainly do not live a regimented life. In fact, my Father, a Vietnam Vet/ Paratrooper, advised me from the beginning that the Military was not for me due to my inability to conform. He was right. He only was in the Army for his time served in Vietnam and then went on to become a special agent in narcotics. While he was tough, I was always allowed to follow my own path and question everytihng (sometimes to his chagrin) That said.. I will talk more tomorrow when the Zzzzz monster is not kicking my rear end.

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katatonic
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posted June 27, 2009 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
fair enough! conversation is good...or can be!

p.s. i love surprises!

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted June 28, 2009 04:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I was in the US Navy,
and I lived on ships and barracks.

I didn't really take advantage of the commissary and base exchange stores.

I just spent my money getting clothes in the stores in San Francisco Bay Area and San Diego where I was stationed.

I was really into fashionable clothes at the time, especially when I was into clubbing scene.

Living on the ships, I ate food in the mess hall on the ships.

when I was living in the baracks,I ate food in the galley. (military word for cafeteria)

I had medical care on the ships and as well as on shore bases.

Raymond

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