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Author Topic:   How an ad uses slight-of-hand to distort facts
Node
Knowflake

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From: 1,981 mi East of Truth or Consequences NM
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posted May 17, 2012 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Millions upon millions of dollars will be spent in the coming months on political campaign ads. Campaign finance reform being what it is [non-existent] here is a good example from a PolitiFact article about how one of the most savvy and powerful groups works through the spin cycle.

line-by line slight of hand by Karl Rove & Americans for Prosperity

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jwhop
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posted May 18, 2012 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, you mean ads like the thoroughly disgusting and lying ad put out by the O'Bomber campaign? The ad accusing Romney of bankrupting a steel mill...when Romney had been gone from Bain Capital for 2 years when that steel mill went down?

Is that the kind of misleading..(lying) ads you're talking about Node?

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Node
Knowflake

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posted May 18, 2012 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Probably because a Romney campaign ad touted a steel mill boosted by Bain investment. The video of Steel Dynamics employees talking about the company's origins and current success— suggesting it wouldn't be possible had Romney and his "private sector leadership team" not gotten involved.

"SDI almost never got started," the ad says. "When others shied away, Mitt Romney's private sector leadership team stepped in."

The minute-long ad never mentions Bain, Romney's former employer, by name. And it also doesn't bring up the $37 million in government subsidies the company received that contributed to its survival.

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA
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posted May 18, 2012 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I get email updates from Factcheck.org. Here's the headlines for today's:

New Wire Items


A Bogus Tax Attack Against Obama
Crossroads GPS claims that the president broke a promise to not increase taxes for families making less than $250,000 a year.

'Obama's Promise,' Part II
The rest of the story on that misleading ad from Crossroads GPS.

Peddling Innuendo, Exaggerations on ‘Obama’s Wall Street’
American Future Fund stretches the facts on the president's ties to Wall Street.

Bachmann’s Fundraising Whopper
Minnesota congresswoman makes a false claim about the redrawing of her congressional district.

Do ‘Most Americans’ Agree with Romney on Gay Marriage?
Americans are more closely divided on the issue than the Republican National Committee chairman suggests.

Chamber Continues to Mislead on Health Care Law
U.S. Chamber of Commerce miseducates voters about the potential impact of the Affordable Care Act
(FlackCheck.org produced two videos in response to the Chamber of Commerce ads. You can see them here and here.)

Group Skews Facts on Obama’s ‘Shameless’ Statements
A supposed veterans group goes too far in portraying the president as a glory hog after Osama bin Laden’s death.
(FlackCheck.org produced four videos in response to the Veterans for a Strong America ads. You can see them here, here, here and here.)

I haven't opened all of these links, but it sure looks long on Republicans distorting things, and Factcheck is not shy about correcting Democrats (on the 8th they did a piece on Obama's "Life of Julia").

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jwhop
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posted May 18, 2012 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you have any evidence Node that Steel Dynamics would have gotten started and become a success without the investment by Romney and his team?

I notice you shied away from commenting on the lying O'Bomber ad saying Romney/Bain Capital bankrupted their steel mill...when Romney had been gone 2 years when they bit the dust.

Typical of leftists. They never want to talk about facts.

acoustic, no one with 2 braincells believes a word fact check has to say. Especially after they discover fact check is the political propaganda arm of the St Petersburg Times which is in the bag for O'Bomber...and always was.

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Node
Knowflake

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From: 1,981 mi East of Truth or Consequences NM
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posted May 18, 2012 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
do you deny any of the items in the original post? I guess not as now we are; how does that go--oh yes-

Onward and upward!

I told you a long time ago that I will no longer do your work for you. The last time was when I asked you to prove a statement...your reply "I don't have to prove anything".

Oh, and if you ask me to supply the thread, you can forget that one too. Kat has given you multitudes of your own quotes in threads that you conveniently never returned to.

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katatonic
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posted May 18, 2012 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well, jwhop, considering YOUR choice ('newt should be president") hammered romney for his VULTURE CAPITALISM and job destruction loud and clear, perhaps you should think twice about the obama campaign pointing that up..?

though i know you won't, you never concede a millimeter.

who were the voices talking about when they said "he's a job destroyer?" if they weren't talking about romney? do tell.

personally i think it would be a great idea if the campaign held off until there was an actual nominee. so far, though consensus has picked romney, the delegates have NOT.

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AcousticGod
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posted May 18, 2012 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jwhop, no. People with far more brain cells than you do actually pay attention to FactCheck.org, and it has won many awards. As you recall even Dick Cheney cited factcheck when defending himself against charges of being in bed with Halliburton. The propaganda argument (if you can call it that) continues to have neither merit nor basis in reality (it remains unproven by you just as it always has).

Once again you're just making a sweeping statement in hopes that your authority carries the message through.

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katatonic
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posted May 18, 2012 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well last i looked romney was leading the wall street donation-recipients' list this cycle. however i wouldn't put it past wall street to slush a little over to obama in the hope that he plays nice with them, too. that's the name of the CITIZEN'S UNITED game, innit? it's just candy money anyway to them.

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 18, 2012 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Jwhop, no. People with far more brain cells than you do actually pay attention to FactCheck.org, and it has won many awards. As you recall even Dick Cheney cited factcheck when defending himself against charges of being in bed with Halliburton. The propaganda argument (if you can call it that) continues to have neither merit nor basis in reality (it remains unproven by you just as it always has).

Once again you're just making a sweeping statement in hopes that your authority carries the message through.


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jwhop
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posted May 18, 2012 07:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No one with even 2 brain cells to bounce off the insides of their cranium pay the slightest attention to fact check acoustic.

Leftists do but then, they don't fit the stipulated requirements.

May 18, 2012
The 'War on Women' Implodes
By Janice Shaw Crouse

The so-called "War on Women" should have been a deadly hit, a fatal blow to the GOP's hopes to cut into the huge majority of the female vote that went for Obama in 2008. Or so Democrat strategists thought when the Democrats launched their campaign to persuade the public that the GOP was engaging in a "War on Women," they thought they had a sure thing. The planets were aligned just right for success. Their rallying cry was powerful; their victim was vulnerable; the media had their backs, and they are masters of deadly destruction in the art of political warfare.

With their troops armed to the hilt for battle, the Democrats and President Obama sent them forth to do battle in the imaginary GOP "War on Women." They assumed women all across the nation would fall into line behind them once they heard the battle cry.

The incumbent, as conventional wisdom goes, is virtually impossible to defeat; he can use the power of his office to control the terms of the debate to focus on his record of accomplishments. Except that this administration has such a dismal record -- from the economy to unemployment, from the housing crash to exorbitant gas prices -- from unsustainable debt to incomprehensible deficit -- their only hope depends upon diversionary tactics. Supposedly, a months-long campaign about a supposed Republican "War on Women" would pump up outrage among those vitally important, single-women voters and propel the president ahead in the 2012 polls. The Obama campaign thought they were whipping up a perfect storm to swamp the Republicans.

But their "perceptions" differ from the "realities" beyond their Washington, D.C.-New York-Los Angeles elite enclaves. Is the White House getting desperate and miscalculating?

This White House knows the facts -- women outnumber men, and they vote at higher rates than men. Election 2012 will be different from 2008 -- fewer women identify as Democrat in 2012 than in 2008. Plus, the president fares best among single women (54% of single women prefer Obama, as compared to only 35% of married women; 26% of single women prefer Romney, compared to 47% of married women). No wonder the Democrats want to push the idea of a "War on Women" that focuses on hot-button issues for single women.

After all, years of political strategy rests on the principle of divide and conquer. Democrats must fire up those single women who are necessary for victory in November. The public was bombarded with demagoguery and propaganda camouflaged as truth. It seemed like the perfect narrative: pro-life policies and shutting down Planned Parenthood's access to the federal trough would endanger women's health. Then there was the very emotional Rush Limbaugh and Sandra Fluke skirmish. Single women in college -- even 30-something law school students -- who spend more than $3,000 a year on contraception should not be called bad names. Never mind that feminists have been staging demonstrations to appropriate, to own, the label "**** ." Headlines about the faux-battle over contraception were followed by Hilary Rosen's faux-mommy war. She claimed that Ann Romney, who raised five sons, has "never worked a day in her life."

In the midst of all the distortions and lies, truth came to light.

The president and his cohorts did not reckon with truth when they built a campaign on a lie. But truth is a strangely persistent thing. Winston Churchill described truth as "incontrovertible" and said, "Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Fog, for a time, may conceal realities, but the realities remain.

At the same time that Hilary Rosen was taking pot shots at Mrs. Romney for "never working," news broke that President Obama, the champion of working women, pays female White House employees 18% less than the male counterparts he employees. The median annual salary for women in Obama's White House is $60,000, compared to the $71,000 median salary for the men.

Our Beverly LaHaye Institute figures show that women account for 92 percent of the jobs lost since 2008 -- in the past three years, it is the steepest decline than at any point since records were kept. Ironically, this job loss is among demographics traditionally in the President's base: unemployment is up among Hispanic women and up among Black women more than three percentage points (1.3 million women).

Despite the hard realities of these facts, it looked for a little while like the left was winning the PR battle. In an April CBS News/New York Times poll, women supported President Obama 49%, with Mitt Romney pulling in 43%.

But as Churchill said, truth is incontrovertible.

Early on in the so-called "War," the Hill Poll showed that "Forty-nine percent of likely voters said the presumptive GOP presidential nominee (Mitt Romney) respects women who have independent careers, while 27 percent said he doesn't and 24 percent weren't sure." President Obama garnered only 35 percent of those who thought he respects women with independent careers. According to the women voters in the poll, 46 percent thought Mitt Romney understands their issues, while only 41 percent thought President Obama does.

Reams of social science research support the idea that, when it comes to choosing a president, voters pick the person they "trust." Evidence is piling up that the campaign distractions are not working for the Democrats, that even the "true believers" are disillusioned. As Churchill said about truth, "in the end, there it is."

For President Obama, the truth hurts.

A poll released May 14, 2012, shows that women support Mitt Romney over President Obama 46 percent to 44 percent.

It appears that President Obama and the Democrats have lost this battle and are at risk of losing the war.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/05/the_war_on_women_implodes.html

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AcousticGod
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posted May 18, 2012 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
No one with even 2 brain cells to bounce off the insides of their cranium pay the slightest attention to fact check acoustic.

I know that having two brain cells is an enviable goal, but if you only have one brain cell perhaps it's better that you keep your mind occupied with things other than Factcheck.

Of course you couldn't possibly only have one brain cell, and of course even you pay enough attention to factcheck to make an attempt to discredit it every chance you get. That right there is pretty much an endorsement of it's ability to say something you'd find uncomfortable ...like, say, the truth.

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AcousticGod
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posted May 18, 2012 07:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh Jwhop...still posting badly written stuff?

Tell me where's the logic in comparing the mean income of Obama administration staffers?

quote:
The median annual salary for women in Obama's White House is $60,000, compared to the $71,000 median salary for the men.

This is clearly a poorly thought out piece of spin. Say, let's get an average of the men's salary's and if it's higher than the average of the women's salaries we'll put it to people as if this indicates a discrepancy in pay. Discrepancies in pay are figured between people doing the same job. They're not done by pooling all the salaries and averaging them out. How ridiculous.

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jwhop
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posted May 21, 2012 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Posting the salaries of women in the O'Bomber administration compared to men merely to show the lying and hypocrisy of this Marxist Socialist Progressive twit...and the rest of his Kool-Aid swilling chorus acoustic. Those exactly like you acoustic.

O'Bomber, you and the rest of O'Bomber's Kool-Aid swilling chorus are so far off in leftist land even liberals can't stand you.

Cory Booker: ‘Stop attacking private equity’
Newark mayor praises the record of Bain Capital on Meet the Press
BY: Washington Free Beacon Staff
May 20, 2012


Newark Mayor Cory Booker credited Bain Capital with growing businesses and said attacks on private equity must stop, during “Meet the Press” Sunday.

As far as that stuff, I have to say from a very personal level, I’m not about to sit here and indict private equity. It’s—to me, we’re just getting to a ridiculous point in America. Especially, I know, I live in a state where pension funds, unions and other people are investing in companies like Bain Capital. If you look at the totality of Bain Capital’s record, they’ve done a lot to support businesses, to grow businesses; this to me, I’m very uncomfortable.

Booker went on to compare the private equity attacks to attacks on Rev. Jeremiah Wright, calling them a “distraction” and “crap.”

But the last point I’ll make is, this kind of stuff is nauseating to me on both sides. It’s nauseating to the American public. Enough is enough—stop attacking private equity, stop attacking Jeremiah Wright. This stuff has got to stop. Because what it does is it undermines to me what this country should be focused on. It’s a distraction from the real issues. This is either going to be a small campaign about this crap, or it’s going to be a big campaign about the issues that the American public cares about.

Former Obama administration auto czar Steve Rattner also defended the record of Bain Capital last week, during a “Morning Joe” segment.

“So, yeah, I do think to pick out an example of somebody who lost their job unfortunately, this is part of capitalism. This is part of life,” Rattner said. “And I don’t think there’s anything Bain Capital did that they need to be embarrassed about.”
http://freebeacon.com/cory-booker-bain-has-done-a-lot-to-support-businesses/

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AcousticGod
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posted May 21, 2012 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, it's stupid as I said, Jwhop. A salary comparison is ALWAYS done amongst people of the same position. Otherwise it's completely meaningless. You can't take a CFO salary and put it against a receptionist's salary and say that the disparity in pay is a gender thing. It's a completely ridiculous attempt at spin. In this case it's a group of men's salaries versus a group of women's salaries. We don't know which positions are represented. We don't know how many members of either sex are in either group. It's rather plainly dumb, and does not and CANNOT illustrate hypocrisy on the part of the Obama administration. The only person here accepting of a kool-aid premise is you.

Regarding Cory Booker, he's offered several clarifications since saying that.

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jwhop
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posted May 22, 2012 08:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Even women are against you...and O'Bomber on the issue of equal pay for women acoustic.

How odd don't you think acoustic...that I line up with women of all political views on this issue...that those who do the work should be paid equally while you and O'Bomber...both of whom are misogynists, don't!

Of course, this isn't anything new for O'Bomber. He did the very same thing with his campaign staff...paid the men much more than women on his campaign staff. Yet, this misogynist twit, whose main focus on economic issues have hurt women most, wants the women's vote.

Women should tell this little misogynist a-hole to pi$s off.

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AcousticGod
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posted May 22, 2012 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You've posted a number of misconstrued things since I was last here, and since this is the most fun one to tackle I'll do this one first.

Of course you resorted to labelling in lieu of defending the poor logic put forth in the article you posted. Fortunately, logic is immutable, so I'm going to show one last time just how wrong that bit of spin is.

To do this I'm going to create an imaginary, but completely plausible work group that we'll test in exactly the same manner as your article suggests. This department has more women than men employed, and each woman makes EXACTLY the same as her male counterpart.

Three Men:
Department head makes $80k/year
Manager makes $60k/year
Underling makes $40k/year

Four Women:
Manager makes (same as above) 60k/year
Underling makes (same as above) $40k/year
Underling makes (same as above) $40k/year
Underling makes (same as above) $40k/year

The men make a total of $180k combined. The women also make a total of $180k combined. However, because the men's total is only divided amongst three men the median salary for the males is $60k/year. Meanwhile, the women's $180k is divided by four women, giving a mean salary of $45k/year.

More women making exactly the same pay as their male counterparts, and yet their "mean annual salary" is less. This remains true if you drop the male department head down to management-level pay, too. Simply by virtue of there being less men.

There's nothing misogynistic about any of this. That's why not a single woman here raised a voice against the simple logic. It's absurd, and you're absurd for believing in it.

I didn't snag an attorney and make her my wife because I'm "misogynistic". That label remains as empty as most of the labels you bandy about.

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AcousticGod
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posted May 23, 2012 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At #factcheck panel, Kevin Keeshan of @NBCNews says they "rely heavily on @factcheckdotorg" to review political ads. #election2012

A tweet today.

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted May 23, 2012 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"To do this I'm going to create an imaginary, but completely plausible work group"...acoustic

How about this acoustic.

Lay off the "imaginary". We don't need anything from you little bubble world of unreality. stick to facts...if you don't mind and even if you do mind.

That which is "plausible" is not necessarily true either. It might be true or not even close to being true.

Facts please!

Here are some FACTS for you acoustic.

Hostile Workplace
Obama White House pays women less than men, records show

Female employees in the Obama White House make considerably less than their male colleagues, records show.

According to the 2011 annual report on White House staff, female employees earned a median annual salary of $60,000, which was about 18 percent less than the median salary for male employees ($71,000).

As a presidential candidate in 2008, Obama was criticized for paying the women on his campaign staff less than the men, and far less than GOP opponent John McCain paid his female staffers.
http://freebeacon.com/hostile-workplace/

Does Obama pay women less than men?

Barack Obama has campaigned on the issue of “equal pay”, casting John McCain as a villain for not supporting federal legislation widening grounds and timing for pay-discrimination lawsuits. Yet Obama may have a fair-pay issue of his own. According to Fred Lucas at Cybercast News Service, women on his staff made $6,000 less than men on average. McCain, on the other hand, has more women in key positions — and the women on his staff average slightly higher salaries than the men:

On average, women working in Obama’s Senate office were paid at least $6,000 below the average man working for the Illinois senator. That’s according to data calculated from the Report of the Secretary of the Senate, which covered the six-month period ending Sept. 30, 2007. Of the five people in Obama’s Senate office who were paid $100,000 or more on an annual basis, only one — Obama’s administrative manager — was a woman.
The average pay for the 33 men on Obama’s staff (who earned more than $23,000, the lowest annual salary paid for non-intern employees) was $59,207. The average pay for the 31 women on Obama’s staff who earned more than $23,000 per year was $48,729.91. (The average pay for all 36 male employees on Obama’s staff was $55,962; and the average pay for all 31 female employees was $48,729. The report indicated that Obama had only one paid intern during the period, who was a male.)
McCain, an Arizona senator, employed a total of 69 people during the reporting period ending in the fall of 2007, but 23 of them were interns. Of his non-intern employees, 30 were women and 16 were men. After excluding interns, the average pay for the 30 women on McCain’s staff was $59,104.51. The 16 non-intern males in McCain’s office, by comparison, were paid an average of $56,628.83.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/06/30/does-obama-pay-women-less-than-men/

O'Bomber is a gasbag. Women should tell O'Bomber to pi$s off!

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AcousticGod
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posted May 24, 2012 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just showed you why you and your articles are wrong. In all articles you've shown on this matter the case is presented as women make less ON AVERAGE. I've told you, and I've shown you why average pay doesn't equal an inequality of pay. It's a very simple thing to understand. You can have both genders making the same amount in the same positions, and simply by virtue of one gender occupying more of the lower paid roles that gender's average pay will be less.

And let's think about how idiotic the notion is that Democratic-leaning women working for Obama are going to stand for being paid less than their peers. How likely is that scenario? How easy would it be for them to embarrass the administration? It's not happening, is it? Because there's no merit to a spin piece talking about AVERAGE salaries.

While we're on the subject of women, Obama leads among most women. Romney's up by a meager two points among married women only.

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katatonic
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posted May 24, 2012 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
seems to me that the person who started the hillary thread on GU(1) has NO idea what women think or what is or isn't misogynistic.

the opening post there stated that because hillary had been denied the nomination by the democrats in favour of obama, ALL WOMEN should be outraged.

when in fact, many women are smart enough not to vote for someone just because of his/her sex. being FEMALE does not necessarily make one a "women's candidate". most women would prefer that the first woman president be a GOOD PRESIDENT for obvious reasons, not just wear a skirt and lipstick.

hillary was never going to get the nomination. i was told that months before she was "robbed" of it...and she was. the establishment has always hated her and they were never going to give her the chance. kudos to her for going for it anyway, but while there are a lot of things i do like about hillary, i would not have voted for her, so i am glad not to have had to make that choice.

as to obama's unequal pay or equal pay for equal work at the white house, i am not really up on it. but i did hear romney's response to whether he would stand behind the lily ledbetter law...he didn't even know what it was, and when he checked with his informers, he still didn't know whether he would support it or try to undermine it.

if the democrat women in the white house are being shafted, they have the law that obama signed into practice when he first hit the white house to sue his arse if they want to. why don't they? could it be the statistics jwhop is quoting are skewed?

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted May 24, 2012 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You didn't show anyone anything acoustic.

Your "imagination" is running away with you.

Using imaginary situations is no credible substitution for FACTS.

I used FACTS..which you and other leftists can't deal with.

Women should tell O'Bomber to Pi$s-off. He disrespects women, pays women less than he pays men and he's hurt women above all others in the O'Bomber economy! That's reason enough for women to tell O'Bomber to F-Off!

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