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Author Topic:   Eric Holder Held In Contempt
Randall
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posted June 20, 2012 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/20/eric-holder-contempt-vote-fast-and-furious-darrel-issa_n_1612046.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D171637

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Emeraldopal
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posted June 20, 2012 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Emeraldopal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
..big can of worms...

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Ami Anne
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posted June 20, 2012 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The root of this thing was O'Bomber trying to take guns away from US citizens.

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Randall
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posted June 20, 2012 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They should hold public hearings to dig into this and see what can be uncovered.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 20, 2012 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
They should hold public hearings to dig into this and see what can be uncovered.



Yep, I think they will have to, as the momentum has reached too high a pitch.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 20, 2012 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It appears a one-sided view is being offered here.

"From the beginning, Chairman Issa and certain members of the Committee have made unsubstantiated allegations first, then scrambled for facts to try to justify them later," Holder said in his statement after the committee voted.

"That might make for good political theater, but it does little to uncover the truth or address the problems associated with this operation and prior ones dating back to the previous Administration," said the attorney general. Holder noted he had ordered a full investigation into Fast and Furious by the Justice Department's inspector general and said it would yield "a tough, independent review" of the failed operation.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/holder-house-committee- contempt-vote-divisive-entirely-unnecessary-212441479.html

The election year smear campaign looks equally plausible from our viewpoint, and by "our" I mean those of us not-in-the-know, which includes everyone here.

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katatonic
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posted June 20, 2012 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
chairman issa, former professional thief among other salubrious callings, conducted a witch hunt. he pretty much announced as much beforehand.

as for the "hidden" documents, many thousands of pages were submitted regardless.

while a 3 million job bill languishes on the floor of the house, all hands are expected on deck to vote on reprimanding holder. it's all about the jobs and economy, isn't it?

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AcousticGod
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posted June 20, 2012 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I can't help but think that if Holder was really being such a pain in the ass that Democrats would call him on it as well, but the vote was straight down party lines.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 21, 2012 07:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AG I know you are intelligent and thinking, but I don't get you

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jwhop
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posted June 21, 2012 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ami is right.

The entire intent of O'Bomber and and the gun grabbers was to craft this program to permit high capacity weapons to filter into Mexico. The object of which was to clammer for more gun control in the United States.

There are internal memos to that effect which were released to the the House Committee by a whistle blower and there may be others. That's the reason O'Bomber and Holder are in full cover their as$es mode right now.

O'Bomber, Holder and others in the White House, Justice Dept, perhaps the DEA and BATF and perhaps others violated both US and international law by running guns over an international border...not in pursuit of foreign policy but for internal political reasons and now, they all have their t!ts in the wringer.

But, O'Bomber can't claim Executive Privilege in pursuit of running a cover-up to protect his own ass from political fall-out. Watergate established that principle firmly in the law.

This is far, far, far worse than Watergate. No one died as a result of Watergate. In this botched political operation, 2 US citizens died and hundreds of Mexican citizens.

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jwhop
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posted June 21, 2012 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
June 21, 2012
Fast and Furious Falling Apart
By Russ Vaughn

When BATF agents first blew the whistle on what is now known as Operation Fast and Furious, the rationale offered by DoJ for such an evidently foolish operation was that it was designed to allow BATF to track and prosecute the leaders of the Mexican drug cartels. As more information surfaced from the Mexican government and the BATF's Mexican bureau chief specifying that none of them knew anything of this operation, many of us who were paying a bit closer attention to the case immediately smelled the first foul scent of corruption.

The fatal flaw in DoJ's explanation was this: if the Mexican authorities had not been brought into the operation, nor even the BATF's own agents authorized to operate in Mexico, then the proffered DoJ justification made utterly no sense, for the simple reason that once those walked guns hit the south side of that border, there was absolutely no process in place to track them to their supposed targets. Therefore, DoJ was patently misrepresenting its motive. Why?

For those who keep a constant wary eye on the left's never-ending war on our 2nd-Amendment right to keep and bear arms, the increasingly fishy smell emanating from Washington led to connecting the dots back to the year-earlier revelations in the liberal media that weapons being used in Mexican crimes were traceable back to American sources more than 90% of the time. That false meme had spread quickly through the major liberal media, along with calls for stricter gun control laws in this country by...guess who! How about our president, our secretary of state, our attorney general, and other notable Democrats, for starters?

Here we had an operation mounted by the executive branch of the United States, an operation which had as its stated goal -- after being outed, that is -- the targeting of Mexican drug lords on sovereign Mexican soil. Yet this was done without the knowledge of anyone in the Mexican government. Quite clearly, a secret and subversive operation had been conceived and implemented against our sister nation to the south -- subversive because, again, quite clearly, the American government was subverting the sovereign authority of Mexico without that nation's knowledge. If the goal was, as stated later by DoJ, to track guns into Mexico to the purchasing sources in the cartels, then was there not some diplomatic requirement to notify the Mexican government that we were arming their most violent criminal elements? And what was the need for keeping our own BATF agents in Mexico -- the only American agents with Mexican presence to conduct such surveillance and tracking operations on Mexican soil -- equally in the dark?

It doesn't require much in the way of deductive powers to conclude that the fish-wrap smell seeping out of Washington probably had to do with Eric Holder's Department of Justice being used to tightly wrap something rotting from the head down. And what could that be? Early proponents of the theory suggesting that if the DoJ's rationale smelled fishy, then perhaps the true reason for F&F was to create justification for more gun control legislation here in this country were looked at as crackpot conspiracists. Even now, most of those Republican members of Congress pursuing this scandal refuse to cite the true purpose of F&F, still referring to it as a bungled federal program. There are exceptions: Florida congressman John Mica speaking on one of the Sunday talk shows this weekend, made clear his opinion that F&F was a sinister and cynical attempt by the Obama administration to undermine the 2nd Amendment. I watched him say it, but Google has no link. Imagine that.

For those who haven't really followed the Fast and Furious scandal, here's a five-step summary of how the operation was supposed to work:

1.Allow guns to flow freely to criminal elements in Mexico, where they are naturally used in the extremely violent and deadly criminal activities of the drug cartels.
2.When sufficient guns of American origin have been used in such criminal activities, enlist the willing services of the liberal media to announce the discovery thereof to the world.
3.Enlist multiple prominent Democrats to untruthfully proclaim that 90% of the guns used in Mexican crimes originate in the U.S.
4.Use steps one through three to substantiate the liberal fallacy that private gun ownership leads to increased gun violence by gun owners.
5.With the compliance of a thoroughly duped American public, enact increasingly restrictive gun ownership policies through federal agencies, bypassing Congress and the Supreme Court.

When looked at this way, doesn't Obama's statement to a group of gun control advocates in March 2011 that he was taking steps to further gun control restrictions, but "under the radar," now seem less cryptic than it did at the time? For those who still don't believe Fast & Furious was an end-run on the 2nd Amendment by a liberal, gun-averse administration, here are five questions to consider:

1.Could the possibility that this plan was concocted at the very top of the administration, putting it on par with Watergate, explain Eric Holder's entrenched refusal to release the tens of thousands of documents being sought by congressional investigators?
2.Is the liberal media's refusal to investigate this scandal due to the fact that they suspect that the acts of this administration may rise to criminal and impeachable offenses?
3.Has the reluctance of the Republican leadership to more aggressively support the House investigation been attributable to the same possibility -- that full exposure could lead straight to the Oval Office and the politically unsavory possibility of impeachment of the nation's first black president?
4.Does anyone really think an ambitious politician like Holder would risk career-ending contempt of Congress charges to protect some incredibly stupid subordinates who supposedly, all by themselves, planned and implemented such a boondoggle?
5.In an administration known for its quickness in throwing friends and associates under the bus in matters of self-preservation, is it not remarkable that rather than being so dispatched by Holder, many of the key players in F&F have been promoted despite denials by their bureau?
If all this sounds like a bit too much to swallow, consider the political origins of the key players in the current administration. All are products of the Chicago political machine, a thoroughly Democrat movement particularly hostile to the concept of citizen gun ownership as demonstrated by the some of the nation's most restrictive gun ownership laws being in place there. And to prove the folly of those laws and the liberal fallacy that disarming the citizenry reduces crime, here's a quite recent headline from that bastion of conservative thought and opinion, Huffington Post: "Chicago Homicide Rate Worse Than Kabul, Up To 200 Police Assigned To High-Profile Wedding
(Video)."

We are quick to blame the policies and activities of the Mexican drug cartels for their nation's murder rate being among the highest in the world. Is it not then fair to apply the same blame to those who control a city with some of the most restrictive gun ownership laws in America, which are yielding gun-death fatality stats almost double the total casualty rate for American troops in the Afghan war zone? It is the total and vise-like hold the Democrat machine has on Chicago that has made this city the riskiest place in America for law-abiding citizens, turning them into helpless, unarmed sheep at the mercy of roving, well-armed, predatory wolves.

Doesn't Chicago sound a lot like Mexico to you?

Never lose sight of the real reason why liberals want to confiscate your guns. Liberals assert that government is the protector of all our freedoms, and therefore we need not be concerned with protecting ourselves and our loved ones. The folly of that assertion can be refuted with one word: Chicago. But the true reason for wanting an unarmed public is because such a citizenry is powerless in the face of armed government and therefore compliant. Liberals and Democrats know full well that the key to unrestrained governing is to first disarm the citizenry.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/fast_and_furious_falling_apart.html

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AcousticGod
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posted June 21, 2012 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think you, nor your sources are being accurate about this, especially with regard to designing a situation that would benefit an anti-gun campaign.

No Conservatives seems to be aware of the details of Wide Receiver (Bush-era Fast and Furious operation), and how it was materially the same. Contrary to some of the "facts" expressed in the press, there was no coordination with Mexican authorities on that operation, and similar to Fast and Furious guns were lost.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/emails_refute_republican_suggestion_that_bush-era_gun_walking_was_coordinated_with_mexico.php

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Ami Anne
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posted June 21, 2012 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AG

Man, this stuff is ALL out there. Adjust your reading glasses

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AcousticGod
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posted June 21, 2012 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lots of stuff is out there. As I keep telling you, just because SOMEONE believes it to be true, doesn't make it so. I've provided some much needed objectivity to this conversation.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 21, 2012 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Objectivity, AG? *slaps self*

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AcousticGod
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posted June 21, 2012 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup. I wish you guys had it on your own, but you keep listening to sources that don't get things right. I don't know why you'd subject yourselves to that, but it keeps happening day in and day out.

Saw some street art on Facebook this morning that says, "Think for yourself, and act for others." That's about right.

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Lonake
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posted June 22, 2012 01:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I watched yesterday when the committee debated over the issue. Very convincing arguments on the Republican side, and many seemed to hold the belief that both current and last administration had their hands sullied in it. Rep. Gowdy from South Carolina was particularly convincing (to me, very well thought out arguments) and quite impassioned as well.

Here's a link to Gowdy's speech (YouTube),
Rep Trey Gowdy Lets Dems Have It In Holder Contempt Debate

quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Holder noted he had ordered a full investigation into Fast and Furious by the Justice Department's inspector general and said it would yield "a tough, independent review" of the failed operation.

This was noted in the debate as well.
Rep. Jackie Speier from California (Dem) called for banning sale of ak-47s in the U.S, if not in total. I would agree with this point. When you have handguns, there is no need for these weapons.
quote:
“Every day guns are crossing our border and arming drug cartels because of loopholes in our already weak gun control laws. No one needs an AK-47 or other assault weapon for hunting or sport, and yet in Arizona they can be purchased in unlimited quantity.

Source: http://speier.house.gov (Media Center, Top Stories) - She's right.

We'll see what the house votes on next week, likely along party lines as well.

But in my view, the fact that the U.S. govt is at all embroiled in what is happening in Mexico, is appalling. There should be no ties in this vein and their crimes should be denounced; the horrors are not just in the Middle East, they are closer to home.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 22, 2012 07:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for that input, Lonake! xx

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jwhop
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posted June 22, 2012 07:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't really care what you think acoustic.

Perhaps if just once you had shown you were capable of rational thought it might be different.

The operation under Bush was far different. Guns were tracked and the Mexican government was aware of the operation and participated in the operation. This attempt to link O'Bomber's gun running operation back to Bush is just another smoke screen to take the heat off O'Bomber's ass and off Holder's ass and it's not going to work.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 22, 2012 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not the one with the rationality issue, Jwhop. Never was.

quote:
The operation under Bush was far different. Guns were tracked and the Mexican government was aware of the operation and participated in the operation.

But new documents DOJ disclosed to congressional investigators on Thursday appear to indicate that ATF officials didn’t even consider looping Mexican authorities in on their operation until several months after the investigation began and ATF had already lost track of weapons that likely ended up in Mexico. http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/emails_refute_republican_suggestion_that_bush-era_gun_walking_was_coordinated_with_mexico.php

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katatonic
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posted June 22, 2012 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this administration has so NOT restricted or tried to restrict gun rights that we now have MORE gun rights than before it came in.

so what logical person would assume that a gun-running op into mexico to "sting" cartels and shooters was a ploy to limit guns in THIS country?

answer: none. only someone bound and determined to prove themselves RIGHT at all costs makes such statements.

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Lonake
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posted June 26, 2012 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Thanks for that input, Lonake! xx

Did you watch his speech Ami, I'm doing research on him, he's quite impressive (so far). I hope it's not for show.

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Randall
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posted June 29, 2012 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He was voted in contempt and held to both civil and criminal penalties. It will be interesting to see the confrontation if he is arrested between the arresting agents and his own.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 29, 2012 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lonake:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ami Anne:
[b]Thanks for that input, Lonake! xx


Did you watch his speech Ami, I'm doing research on him, he's quite impressive (so far). I hope it's not for show.[/B][/QUOTE]


No, O'Bomber and his ilk depress me too much.


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Lonake
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posted June 29, 2012 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gowdy's a Republican Ami

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