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Author
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Topic: Tax Discussion
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Randall
Webmaster Posts: 28100
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted May 22, 2013 07:19 PM
  
AG, I accidently hit the wrong button and deleted the topic where we were discussing taxes. Feel free to re-post your info. I had registered a Newflake by request, since registrations are turned off right now, and I posted under it (her info still stored in my cookies), so it posted under her name, and I went to delete the post and re-post it under my name, and oops, I deleted the whole thing by mistake.  IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 28100
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted May 22, 2013 07:25 PM
AG, we have indeed gone over this before. But you keep quoting the sources that (if you look more closely) speak of the Fifth Amendment privilege, not the right. It doesn't matter if the information is incriminating or not; you cannot be forced to give the government any information which can be used against you. That is precisely why if you are ever audited, all you have to do is ask two questions: 1. Can the information I give you in this audit be used against me? They will say of course it can. And 2. Am I required to give you any information that you can use against me? Audit over! It goes to reason if I don't have to turn over my books and records to the IRS during an audit, then the same logic applies to tax returns, which is why you do so voluntarily. If they want your books and records bad enough, they may issue a summons. You MUST appear at a summons, or you will be held in contempt; however, you may still refuse to present your books and records for examination on Constitutional grounds (the 4th Amendment also), but the IRS Enforcement Manual (the manual for field agents) in Section 363 says this is not recommended, because it could adversely affect voluntary compliance if not successful. In fact, here is an exact quote from said manual in Section 342.12: "The privilege against self-incrimination does not permit a taxpayer to refuse to obey a summons issued under IRC 7602 or a court order directing his appearance. He is required to appear and cannot use the Fifth Amendment as an excuse for failure to do so, although he may exercise it in connection with specific questions. He cannot refuse to bring his records, but may decline to submit them for inspection on Constitutional grounds." So, the IRS admits (to their field agents at least) that they cannot force you to submit to an audit even with a court order! IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 28100
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted May 22, 2013 07:37 PM
Courts have consistently held that those who submit tax returns are witnesses against themselves within the meaning of the Fifth Amendment, and the US government cannot require anyone to be a witness against himself; that's why if you file, you do so voluntarily. Compelled testimony cannot be used in a court of law. But tax returns are routinely used against taxpayers at trial (and not just for tax crimes), because they are signed under penalty of perjury. This is tantamount to taking the witness stand at your own trial and giving testimony that can be used against you."There can be no question that one who files a return under oath is a witness within the meaning of the Amendment." Sullivan v. United States "The information revealed in the preparation and filing of an income tax return is, for Fifth Amendment analysis, the testimony of a "witness" as that term is used herein." Garner v. United States Of course, the Supreme Court will not strike down the system, because the whole house of cards will fall. They found a way to narrowly slip by when Sullivan proclaimed the privilege at trial and not the right. In the famous Miranda decision, the Supreme Court ruled that, "The Fifth Amendment provision that the individual cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself cannot be abridged." By filing voluntarily, you waive your Fifth Amendment right. But how many who file a return do so thinking they are voluntarily waiving a right? We are duped into thinking something voluntary is actually compulsory by a judiciary that goes along with the deception in prosecuting those who don't file. IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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