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Author Topic:   We Need Unions Again
mockingbird
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posted August 02, 2013 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not a huge fan of Unions, but I think that we need them again.

My opinion pretty much exactly tracks with this author's:
http://www.newser.com/story/171947/like-it-or-not-we-need-unions-again.html

That's the TLDR version.
A link to the full article can be found via click through.

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AcousticGod
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posted August 03, 2013 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The whole article should be posted in this case. People need to understand this stuff. Conditions like these lead to the Great Depression, and this is where it's easy to see that straight-up, unregulated Capitalism does fail societies, and is ultimately unsustainable. That's not to demonize Capitalism altogether, just Capitalism without checks. Capitalism works when the middle class is supported.

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mockingbird
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posted August 03, 2013 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, here's the link to the original article: http://www.businessinsider.com/labor-unions-wages-2013-8

A straight c/p wouldn't do it justice - too many graphs, etc.

...also...because they've apparently coded their mobile site to disallow text selection

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Faith
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posted August 03, 2013 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would have thought there is enough diversity within the jobs market that people could simply choose to work toward a job that is essentially solid, or choose one that already comes with a union, like UPS.

I am dumb about these things, though.

What I get miffed about are teacher strikes that seem to be motivated by greed and squeeze the taxpayers. Like, you only work 9 months per year, teachers, so can you please deal with a high deductable dental insurance policy for once...or whatever?

As for places like McDonald's, I just wish they would collapse from consumers being educated about how nasty their food is and how horrible factory farming is. Ditto for many of the places that only pay minimum wage: they're not just sticking it to their workers but to the whole supply chain, AND the environment, AND the consumers (by supplying low-quality goods, sometimes poisoned with lead or banned pesticides or what have you.)

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PixieJane
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posted August 03, 2013 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
What I get miffed about are teacher strikes that seem to be motivated by greed and squeeze the taxpayers. Like, you only work 9 months per year, teachers, so can you please deal with a high deductable dental insurance policy for once...or whatever?

SOME teachers work 9 months a year, many also work summer school...they have no choice in the matter given their finances. Furthermore, their salaries already take into account that they work 9 months a year (and they have the option to take it month by month OR to have the pay spread out over 12 months), and over the years they've continually seen their pay slashed (so many who have worked over 10 years get paid less now than when they first started!) while also getting less tax deductions. It's not unknown (especially teachers unable to swing a summer school position) for a teacher to take a second job to make ends meet (especially when single).

Furthermore, the dedicated teachers work far more than most people, too. In addition to the normal workday there's also special programs, day long meetings, and often HOURS of grading papers almost daily, making calls, etc (one reason they have so little sympathy to kids complaining about their homework). And they don't even get paid for all that overtime. And sometimes they have to take more classes themselves to keep up with standards which costs them and which they're not fully compensated for nor given a pay raise, and I bet about any other professional would be screaming a lot louder over this if they got treated the same.

Granted, there are many bad apples in the school cart, and the better quality teachers will often complain about how the bad teachers get all the same rewards and protections for not working anywhere as hard or competently (though it's usually quiet as those teachers who openly complain often get a paper trail started on them to get rid of them). And as greedy as the union may or may not be, many teachers are barely able to make ends meet, receive less compensation for all the work they do (especially the single mother I met who worked as a teacher as well as taking care of 2 kids...gods, that was sad...), and I doubt they're as greedy as the Republicans and corporations trying to plunder the school budgets for their own pet projects, cronies, tax bennies, etc.

And one reason schools used to be more supported, and contributing to the obesity problem today, is that they were originally designed with fattening lunches and a PE program so that the then undernourished kids would produce more women able to bear healthy children and more men worth drafting into the military, that is the same concern for children a rancher has for his cattle, but as that's not so much a concern today and an educated populace with some ability to critically think for themselves (I understand Reagan was the first to dumb this part of schooling down) demands things like fair treatment that neither government nor biz want to give, that's just one more reason to stymie schools and slash their budgets as much as possible...which means for all their flaws teachers unions are needed (though granted, that's about like saying sometimes one has to join a gang for protection against other gangs...)

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mockingbird
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posted August 03, 2013 11:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unions are a wonderful shield.
They become an issue when they are turned into swords.

The second article I linked to is an excellent read.

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AcousticGod
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posted August 04, 2013 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't have time to cut and paste everything either, but it may be worth it, particularly those charts. I may get back around to it.

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juniperb
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posted August 04, 2013 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MI recently passed a right to work law which makes it illegal to require workers to join a union as a condition of employment.

Since Mi`s Supreme Court declined to weigh in on the legality of the law, it is still a large issue.

It was very rare to apply for a job without unions being a condition of employment.

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Faith
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posted August 08, 2013 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ Interesting.

Well, I don't watch movies very often, but good friends of mine urged me to watch North and South. So I did that yesterday.

Skipping the romantic plotline, the movie is about a mill owner in 19th c. England whose workers go on strike. The workers had thought the owner was merely being selfish by not paying them enough; as it turns out, he was paying the best wages he could afford. The strike put the factory out of business and everyone was in danger of starving to death (until a dramatic change of fortune occurred...but I won't spoil the ending.)

I guess that kind of scenario is possible. Of course it seems a far cry from modern America. I've never heard of unions forming at smaller companies.

But I mention this because I thought of this thread when I watched the movie. Also, it reminds me not to assume all bosses are bad, greedy people trying to exploit their underlings.

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mockingbird
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posted August 08, 2013 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you read the article?

It's really worthwhile and expands beyond the direct "boss/employee" sphere.
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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 08, 2013 03:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't understand. Please explain to me.

The average paycheck for a Detroit union-based employee has an all-in hourly paycheck in excess of $140/hour. This includes healthcare benefits, defined benefit plans, insurance and other retirement benefits. It does not include contingency costs satisfying the ambulance chasers.

I'm not pushing to reduce any benefits and I won't shed a tear if the executives have their equity-linked compensation vastly reduced (those stock options are worthless anyway), but it indeed is hurting the competitiveness of Detroit autos relative to other global brands. I'm not talking about Toyota or Nissan or Hyundai or BMW, which all have operations in America. And I'm ignoring all other Detroit based issues like quality and design.

Clearly, the plight of the employees relative to management is recognized. However, what is the suggestion in that regard? I'm not here to sound insensitive, but what exactly is the solution to this problem? How is it possible to "bring back American jobs" when American products are fundamentally not price competitive because of skyrocketing manufacturing expenses?

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mockingbird
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posted August 08, 2013 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did you read the article?

Because, from your comments, it seems like you didn't.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 08, 2013 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes I did.

I know Blodget personally. Met him when he was with Merrill Lynch equity. I don't agree, but that's the simplistic answer. Of course, he is looking at it solely as an equity investor. Credit defaults are at an all time high and I would be the one shutting out credit from these companies.

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Faith
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posted August 08, 2013 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mockingbird:
Have you read the article?

It's really worthwhile and expands beyond the direct "boss/employee" sphere.


I checked it out and tried to pay close attention, but I get depressed about the existence of these low-paying companies (like McDonald's, whose treatment of animals is disgusting) and it's hard for me to think of fixing problems within them because I want these companies to be punished for their seediness and just go away completely.

I know that is totally unrealistic.

quote:
Contributing to this inequality is a new religion of shareholder value that has come to be defined only by "today's stock price" and not by many other less-visible attributes that build long-term economic value.

Like many religions, the "shareholder value" religion started well: In the 1980s, American companies were bloated and lethargic, and senior management pay was so detached from performance that shareholders were an afterthought.

But now the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Now, it's all about stock performance — to the point where even good companies are now quietly shafting other constituencies that should benefit from their existence.


I'm curious about why the author doesn't propose reforming the laws governing the stock market.

The article didn't focus on how the Federal government creates the division of wealth and that's odd to me, since part of the solution, as I see it, lies there.

I suppose labor unions could be a short-term fix, however. 'Glad I'm not in a position where I need that leverage just to make enough money to keep the family under a roof and fed.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 09, 2013 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How do you reform a marketplace that is driven by individual investors' demand for a particular stock? Historical earnings and cash flow, plus a company's outlook, drive expectations of future stock performance. Lower earnings causes lower demand for stock. Lower demand drives down stock price of a company relative to its peers, and thus underperformance. The non-unionized companies such as Honda, Nissan, Toyota, among others, have a leg up in terms of costs, relatove to the Detroit automanufacturers. Lower costs boosts earnings. Higher earnings makes a company more attractive, and thus more investor interest. How in the world are you going to "reform" the stock market?

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Faith
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posted August 09, 2013 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think part of the answer to your question, Ian, is here. The article focuses more on the housing bubble and subsequent bailouts, but of course the automobile industry got its bailout, too.

Isn't it fair to say that the stock market is keyed not only to predictions about how the industry will perform but also to how the taxpayers and Federal Reserve's willingness to monetize the debt provide a safety net for financial institutions?

quote:
The only way to limit financial panics is to eliminate government-induced moral hazard, and that means letting failed institutions fail. Whether resolution is carried out by the FDIC or a bankruptcy court is not the crucial question; rather, it is whether that resolution process forces all the losses on the institution’s stakeholders rather than bailing them out with taxpayer funds.

The standard objection to allowing failures is that some financial institutions are allegedly so large or interconnected that their failure causes a breakdown of the credit mechanism, thereby harming the whole economy rather than just transmitting losses that have already occurred. According to this view, letting Lehman Brothers fail was a crucial mistake that initiated the meltdown, and bailing out other financial institutions was a necessary evil to prevent even further chaos. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Rather than being a cause, Lehman’s failure was merely the signal that time had come for the U.S. economy to pay the price for all the distortions caused by the misguided policies toward housing and risk. Given those distortions, a massive unwinding and restructuring was necessary to make the economy healthy again.

This restructuring required lower residential investment, declines in stock and housing prices, and shrinkage of the financial sector. All of this implied a recession, even without any impact of financial institution failures on the credit mechanism, and the recession meant that lending would contract, even without a credit crunch.

....

To limit future financial crises, policy must first avoid the distortions inherent in the attempt to expand homeownership. This means eliminating the Federal Housing Administration, the Federal Home Loan Banks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the Community Reinvestment Act, the deductibility of mortgage interest, the homestead exclusion in the personal bankruptcy code, the tax-favored treatment of capital gains on housing, the HOPE for Homeowners Act, the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act (the bailout bill), and the Homeowners Affordability and Stability Plan. None of this is sensible policy.

In addition, policy must end its proclivity to bail out private risk-taking. This second task is difficult, since it requires policymakers to “tie their own hands.” Specific changes in policies and institutions can nevertheless support this goal. The first is avoiding new regulation that makes bailouts more likely. A second is repealing all existing financial regulation, since this would signal markets that they, and only they, can truly protect themselves from risk.

The third and perhaps most important way to reduce moral hazard is to eliminate the Federal Reserve. As long as the Fed exists, it will regard itself as, and be regarded as, the economic insurer of last resort. In a world with perfect information, appropriately humble central bankers, and an absence of political influence on monetary policy, such a protector might enhance the economy’s performance on average.

In the world we live in, none of these conditions will hold consistently, so the potential for policy-induced disasters is large. The U.S. economy prospered for its first 125 years without a central bank. It’s time to try that approach again.



http://reason.com/archives/2009/10/27/financial-market-reform/1

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 09, 2013 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Of course. General Motors and AIG should have been allowed to fail as well, as with Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns and Citigroup. I'm being serious. It's extremely counterintuitive for taxpayer funds to bail out private enterprise.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 09, 2013 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

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PixieJane
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posted August 09, 2013 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Faith, I thought you might like this (I posted it recently, but just in case you missed it...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

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AcousticGod
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posted August 09, 2013 11:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
It's extremely counterintuitive for taxpayer funds to bail out private enterprise.

How is it counter intuitive?

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AcousticGod
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posted August 10, 2013 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Obama Says Income Gap Is Fraying U.S. Social Fabric

It's about time he said that.

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Faith
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posted August 10, 2013 08:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
Faith, I thought you might like this (I posted it recently, but just in case you missed it...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

LOL, you posted that for me months ago and I LOVE it

I need to finish The Road to Serfdom.

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PixieJane
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posted August 10, 2013 08:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
I need to finish The Road to Serfdom.

Here's a very short & sweet summary you might like:
http://mises.org/books/trts/

Obviously, the book explains it much better, but sometimes it's useful to get a sneak peak.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 10, 2013 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
How is it counter intuitive?

The concept of free market capital means that the weak should be allowed to die. The US spent $225 billion on a failed insurance company whose butthead management made very stupid decisions and who assumed dumb risks. The US spent a ton on bailing bankers who ought not to have a job. The US took over a near bankrupt auto manufacturer that builds ****** vehicles and has turned it around such that it is barely profitable. These organizations should have been buried a long time ago.

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AcousticGod
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posted August 10, 2013 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sure, ideally the weak are allowed to die. However, in these situations the business entities death meant much more hurt for the thousands of employees, the millions of clients, as well as the overall economy. You could think it's stupid, but I don't think it was "counter intuitive" whatsoever, especially in the midst of an economic meltdown.

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