posted August 26, 2013 07:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
Not apples and oranges at all. You appear to have caught my drift. And admitted also that you don't know what Obama is thinking..

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I don't care what Obama is thinking presently; I was talking about the past, just as you were.

It is apples and oranges if you see there are different assumptions people begin with, when comparing parents and politicians: parents are expected to have their children's best interests in mind. Politicians are expected have their own best interests in mind.

We don't know whether or not Obama was merely pandering to the liberals who, back in 2007, opposed Bush's surveillance tactics. What we do know is, he's expanded the surveillance and miraculously retained the respect of liberals. Was that part of his plan all along? Lie to the liberals until he had them under his sway enough to convince them that they needed surveillance after all? And we're supposed to admire that?

Back to your flawed analogy: if you questioned your parents' intentions as a child, and then they became clearly abusive towards you as an adult, in retrospect you might look say that you knew all along that something was off with them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
Back to oranges and oranges, your several children all have different needs and levels of understanding. Do you give them all the same allowance and discipline?
How bout guiding 300 million of them...for a limited period of time...when your husband and landlord (bank) are holding up your funds, transport and going behind your back undoing your decisions?

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If you justify everything Obama does on these grounds, then realize the same justification ought to apply to the Republicans in Congress whom you disdain.

posted August 26, 2013 10:05 AM            

I am not happy with the surveillance state either. But I am not fooling myself that it hasn't been going on long before it was passed into law or we were at war even. The FBI/CIA have had files on average citizens for decades. Sometimes they use pretexts like, say, you knew a Communist once. Other times they don't bother.

The surveillance of your internet and phone activities started in 2002. Yes, it's still there. But I don't actually see that it has been "extended", just that a lot of people who never thought about it are shocked that someone on the inside says it's actually happening.

As to who has our best interests at heart, while I am the first to agree that all politicians lie, and play negotiating games with each other, I actually believe that a lot of politicians actually are trying to do their job. The fact that they see that job differently than you do - and know a great deal more about why they do what they do - doesn't invalidate that.

That most of them are corrupt to whatever extent, yes. But I'll bet there are times when you "go along" with your husband, or whomever, in order to further some interest of your own...or your kids'. Politics play out on the individual level too.

A lot of politicians start that corruption by accepting support so they can get and keep the job. Then something has to be given back. It stinks but I can see how people fall into it.

You see Kennedy as a good man, but the reason he died was he thought he could turn on the hands that lifted him, not because he was noble (not saying he wasn't) but because he didn't play the game.

One other thing you appear unwilling to admit, is that it is not Obama that I am "defending" but a realistic view of what goes on in Washington.

As to the flaws in my analogy, while parents MAY have their kids best interests at heart they are still in the position to juggle needs, desires and the ongoing functioning of the home, and they often make deals with their kids (or negotiate cooperation) and have to make decisions that either they or the kids don't like.

posted August 26, 2013 10:10 AM            

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posted August 26, 2013 12:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
Nor do you seem to get that CONGRESS makes the laws. Obama doesn't extend anything. He signs or does not what Congress writes. Then he (the Executive) EXECUTES THE LAW in the best way he sees fit. Bush ASKED for the Patriot Act.

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WHY do you USE capital LETTERS so MUCH?

Congress makes the laws, but the President can use signing statements to modulate the laws:

quote:

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All four Presidents since President Reagan have issued signing statements, and increasingly these statements have contained one or more challenges or objections to the laws being signed. President George W. Bush objected to over 700 provisions of law, usually on the grounds that they infringe on the authority granted to the Executive Branch by the Constitution. Some of these objections may imply that the President does not intend to execute these provisions of law.

Commentators and journalists, including the American Bar Association, have taken issue with the increasing use of signing statements by Presidents to object to provisions of law, arguing that in effect such statements constitute a veto to which Congress cannot respond, and therefore represent a line item veto. Line item vetoes were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (Clinton v. City of New York, 524 U.S. 417 (1998).

The growing use of signing statements has attracted the attention of Congress: the 110th Congress witnessed the introduction of a House Bill (H.R. 264) intended to restrain the President's use of signing statements in general, as well as a Senate Resolution (S. Res. 22) explicitly rejecting particular interpretations of the President's signing statement for Public Law 109-435.

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And what about executive orders, can't the President make laws with them?

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United States Presidents issue executive orders to help officers and agencies of the executive branch manage the operations within the federal government itself. Executive orders have the full force of law,[1] since issuances are typically made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress, some of which specifically delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation), or are believed to take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution. However, these perceived justifications cited by Presidents when authoring Executive Orders have come under criticism for exceeding executive authority; at various times throughout U.S. history, challenges to the legal validity or justification for an order have resulted in legal proceedings.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
Obama didn't veto it but threatened to. Why do you think he made that threat? So you would like him better?

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I'd like to see a link here.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
One other thing you appear unwilling to admit, is that it is not Obama that I am "defending" but a realistic view of what goes on in Washington.

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quote:

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It seems Snowden has infinitely made it easier for Obama to bring reforms he's talked about for years into effect despite congress' EXPRESS DESIRE to stymie his every move!

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^ You "defend" Obama when you insist that he genuinely wants these reforms. Your argument is, Obama is genuine, and he wants to make good on his promises.

And what reforms are you talking about here...reforming the NSA? Are you satisfied with the steps Obama is taking to reform the NSA in light of Snowden's disclosures, and how do you feel about Obama treating Snowden as a criminal now? Snowden was only helping Obama make these changes that (in your view) somewhere deep in his heart he really wanted, but couldn't pursue until Snowden came along.

posted August 26, 2013 03:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
I use capitals SO MUCH because other forms of font alteration are extremely difficult on my phone. They are the quickest way of emphasizing a word. My bad. I'm sure your form...posts 3 miles long for instance...irritates some of us at least some of the time.

Once again you take a question and turn it into a statement of intent...Back later if I have time for the rest.

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Ha ha

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posted August 27, 2013 09:23 AM            

Orwell changed my life when I read Animal Farm in 6th grade.

It imprinted on me.

1984 imprinted on me, too.

When I got to college, the Milgrim experiment imprinted on me.

Now, I see smart people like the people here in GU falling into the same hole that Orwell and Milgrim wrote about, all the while having giant hubris.

The hubris is what gets me the most. I don't understand hard headed people because I am open to truth and I know it when I see it.

Anyway, I have been there and done that on GU.

Blessings to you

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posted August 29, 2013 08:38 AM            

MLK would have been revolted as he was truly a man who wanted to bring all people together.

IMHO, Obama is polarizing the races to ensure he won't be impeached.

Also, he does not have the character of a MLK which is a heart of love.

Obama has a small heart and a small character.

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posted August 29, 2013 11:19 AM            

It really is very brave of you to pontificate on ravism to me, "a black woman full of hate"! Especially since I am neither, but because I have called you on your racism and the polarizing attempts of your hero BumsRush Limberger, you apparently "saw" me that way.

posted August 29, 2013 12:02 PM            

I see the heart of a person. I forget if you are gay, straight, black, white or anything.

I don't care. That is the message of MLK and that is how I feel.

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posted August 29, 2013 01:11 PM            

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posted August 29, 2013 01:12 PM            

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Probably a quote regarding the misguided conservative hero Ayn Rand.)

All labor that uplifts humanity has dignity and importance and should be undertaken with painstaking excellence.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Hmmm...seems to me the greatest moral conflict of our age is the destruction of the middle class via the "free" market, meanwhile conservatives still want more dangerous deregulation.)

The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Once again, the conservative middle class seems to endorse the views that are destroying the middle class's prospects.)

Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Sounds like the liberal mantra regarding conservatives and Fox News.)

Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Whose got more bogeymen than conservatives?)

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Story of my life in GU.)

If we are to go forward, we must go back and rediscover those precious values - that all reality hinges on moral foundations and that all reality has spiritual control.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Kind of like my attempt at educating people about the former values of conservatives in this country.)

One of the greatest casualties of the war in Vietnam is the Great Society... shot down on the battlefield of Vietnam.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(The "Great Society" was a liberal initiative of Lyndon Johnson.)

posted August 29, 2013 02:06 PM            

Then, just before John Lewis' addressing the crowd he claimed that none of the attendees had any direct experience of racism to complain about.

In case anyone here does not know who John Lewis is, he is one of the few people left who took part alongside MLK in the peaceful actions of the early 60s, for which he got his skull broken and nearly died. Now he is a Congressman in Georgia.

He would disagree with Rush that racism died in the 60s, just as MLK would and Obama does.

* * *

Good quotes AG. One I saw yesterday was that "of all the social inequalities in our society, the inequality of access to healthcare may be the worst."

posted August 29, 2013 05:55 PM            

quote:

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Actually, since global warming (as just one example) is all about raking in billions for those on the top of the pyramid, one wonders if MLK might see the Democrats of today to be worthy of much ire. I see many of those quotes as applying negatively toward the modern liberal.

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Wrong premise will always lead to the wrong answer. Those that promote sound science are far from the ones exploiting the middle class.

I don't see any of these as applying negatively toward the modern liberal. Nor do I see a person that cited the Great Society ever aligning with Conservative beliefs overall.

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Who has more boogeymen than conservatives? Haha! Really? Liberals are the chicken littles who fear the world is coming to an end because I use a BBQ grill.

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Yeah, really... but also that was a nice way of not calling Ami out on her Islamophobia.

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And it's the liberals who want to tax the middle class into extinction.

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posted August 29, 2013 06:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Who has more boogeymen than conservatives? Haha! Really? Liberals are the chicken littles who fear the world is coming to an end because I use a BBQ grill. And it's the liberals who want to tax the middle class into extinction.

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ROLFL

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