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Catalina
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Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 10, 2013 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/09/obama-rogue-state-tramples-every-law

Well, Obama has not dismantled our chemical weapons either, but he hasn't used them unlike his predecessors, and he has just pulled off a heist in Syria without firing a shot.

That this is probably an agreement between the Big 5 to eliminate the OBSTACLE of Assad to free flowing oil, remains to be seen, but as much as it stinks it is better than killing and destroying for the same purpose.

Still reprehensible but a step in the right direction? Who used those chemical weapons? If it was a false flag carried out by the US, then he HAS used them, against a small number of people (accounts vary from 500-1400). Will we ever know?

Not while we are busy blaming Obama for a) being willing to start WWIII and/or b) being too much of a wimp to just bomb the hell out of the place. Funny how the same people seem to think both as long as Obama looks bad, the main point.

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Ami Anne
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From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
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posted September 10, 2013 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good for you. You have WONDERFUL character

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted September 10, 2013 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cat, it`s just another day in America ... Obama dissenters will keep dissenting; supporters wil cheer a little louder.
Bottom line is IF this works, the world will be a little safer and the Syrians a whole lot safer.

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Christian, Jew, Muslim, Shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the Mystery, unique and not to be judged.
Rumi

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Catalina
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From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 10, 2013 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Exactly. Time for a walk in the woods.

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Catalina
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Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 10, 2013 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes it is still a work in progress. We'll see how it turns out.

It would be nice, though I realize it's mostly a fantasy, if people could see in more than 2 dimensions when it comes to politics.

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jwhop
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Posts: 6273
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 10, 2013 04:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Well, Obama has not dismantled our chemical weapons either, but he hasn't used them unlike his predecessors"...Catalina/katatonic

Ok, which of O'Bomber's predecessors used chemical weapons? Please be specific as to who, when and against whom.

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Catalina
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Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 10, 2013 05:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
an excerpt, link is to the whole piece: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/09/obama-rogue-state-tramples-every -law

In 1998 the Clinton administration pushed a law through Congress which forbade international weapons inspectors from taking samples of chemicals in the US and allowed the president to refuse unannounced inspections. In 2002 the Bush government forced the sacking of José Maurício Bustani, the director general of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. He had committed two unforgiveable crimes: seeking a rigorous inspection of US facilities; and pressing Saddam Hussein to sign the Chemical Weapons Convention, to help prevent the war George Bush was itching to wage.

The US used millions of gallons of chemical weapons in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. It also used them during its destruction of Falluja in 2004, then lied about it. The Reagan government helped Saddam Hussein to wage war with Iran in the 1980s while aware that he was using nerve and mustard gas. (The Bush administration then cited this deployment as an excuse to attack Iraq, 15 years later).

Smallpox has been eliminated from the human population, but two nations – the US and Russia – insist on keeping the pathogen in cold storage. They claim their purpose is to develop defences against possible biological weapons attack, but most experts in the field consider this to be nonsense. While raising concerns about each other's possession of the disease, they have worked together to bludgeon the other members of the World Health Organisation, which have pressed them to destroy their stocks.

In 2001 he New York Times reported that, without either Congressional oversight or a declaration to the Biological Weapons Convention, "the Pentagon has built a germ factory that could make enough lethal microbes to wipe out entire cities". The Pentagon claimed the purpose was defensive but, developed in contravention of international law, it didn't look good. The Bush government also sought to destroy the Biological Weapons Convention as an effective instrument by scuttling negotiations over the verification protocol required to make it work.

Looming over all this is the great unmentionable: the cover the US provides for Israel's weapons of mass destruction. It's not just that Israel – which refuses to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention – has used white phosphorus as a weapon in Gaza (when deployed against people, phosphorus meets the convention's definition of "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm").

It's also that, as the Washington Post points out: "Syria's chemical weapons stockpile results from a never-acknowledged gentleman's agreement in the Middle East that as long as Israel had nuclear weapons, Syria's pursuit of chemical weapons would not attract much public acknowledgement or criticism." Israel has developed its nuclear arsenal in defiance of the non-proliferation treaty, and the US supports it in defiance of its own law, which forbids the disbursement of aid to a country with unauthorised weapons of mass destruction

There's more if you have the patience to read it.

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Ami Anne
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From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010

posted September 10, 2013 05:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Good Afternoon, Jwhop

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.


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jwhop
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Posts: 6273
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 10, 2013 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good evening Ami.

Lets' see Catalina/katatonic.

The US did not use chemical weapons in Vietnam. We used defoliants to kill off vegetation Viet Cong and North Vietnam soldiers liked to hide under. The US used no chemical weapons in Iraq. White phosphorus is not a chemical weapon...in any sense of the words..chemical weapon.

Whether the US has chemical and/or biological weapons in the inventory doesn't let you off the hook for saying chemical
weapons were used by past presidents.

And no, I have no patience whatsoever for lying posturing fools bent on venting their bilge, bile and spleen against the United States. Just the usual blither, blather, bloviation, bullshiiit and outright lying everyone has come to expect from far left loons. These seem to be the only morons you can find to quote.

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Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 10, 2013 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agent orange is a chemical weapon sir and you know it. As are the others. The lingering generational effects are still manifesting.

Napaln is also a chemical weapon.

We are not lily white and the insistence that all criticism is lies and infamy does you nor the country any credit. I have never made a secret of my wishes that we could be world leaders in peace, not war. But denying well-established facts just makes one an ostrich

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 6273
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 10, 2013 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agent Orange is a herbicide, not a chemical weapon. It's a defoliant...as I said.

You are just so full of IT. And so are the loons you choose to quote.

Types of Chemical Weapons

"There are numerous kinds of chemical weapons, and their effectiveness is controlled by a number of factors, including age, purity, weather conditions, wind direction, means of dissemination, and other factors. Some of the weapons can take hours to kill, and people exposed can sometimes survive, given proper treatment and antidotes.

Chemicals can be dispensed as liquids, vapors, gases and aerosols. They include nerve agents, blister agents and choking agents, all of which can be taken in through the eyes, lungs or skin, and blood agents, which are inhaled. They are generally dispensed as aerosols, liquids or vapors."

Sarin
Soman
VX
Tabun
Hydrogen cyanide
Mustard blister agents
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117208&page=1

None of which are dioxin/agent orange, phosphorus or napalm.

We may not be "lily white" but we don't need America haters like you and your loony-tunes leftist morons spreading lies about us.

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Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 11, 2013 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now jwhop, don't get your bp up. There's no need to be rude.

Defoliant is a chemical weapon and if you want to argue that it only hurts plants then you must be desperate. Have you seen the pictures of workers spraying farm crops with herbicides and pesticides? They wear the full space suit, mate.

What is napalm? Not a chemical, then what?

We may differ on most things but there's no need to call names. Chemical weapons are chemicals used as weapons. Period. Napalm and herbicides both qualify and have been used by predecessors of Obama's.

I noticed the article didn't delve into Britain's role in the manufacture of chems. In that I will agree with you, it's always easier to pick at the guy across the street than see your own faults. But if we just fend off such criticism and play the denial game we are no better.

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 11, 2013 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the kind of blind, irrational, illogical drivel leftists are known for.

Napalm is a blend of petroleum jelly and gasoline. You could slather it all over yourself, breath the fumes and suffer no ill effects...unless someone flicked a bic. Napalm is not a chemical weapon.

Herbicides are intended to be fatal to vegetation but it's not a chemical weapon...unless you're talking about killing off crab grass. Imagine a weapon used against humans which causes symptoms years later...if ever. Yeah, that's real effective on a battlefield.

Phosphorus is used on the battlefield to create smoke for obscuring troop movements. The inhalation of phosphorus smoke is not hazardous to health. Phosphorus is used to make strikable matches. It's also used in toothpaste and shampoo. It's also an element and necessary for plant growth. In the lexicon of fertilizers, it's the "P" in NPK...Nitrogen/Phosphorus/Potassium..potash.

We had this discussion on this forum years ago...before you showed up to lead us all to leftist truth and justice.

The usual suspects attempted to equate the actions of George Bush with Saddam Hussein. To the usual suspects, the actions of Bush were worse than Saddam's.

But what they were really saying...after striping all the bullshiiit out of their nonsense was...

leave our little murdering SOCIALIST dictator alone. All the blither, blather, bloviation, bullshiiit, lies and petitions were affirmative votes for Saddam Hussein.

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Ami Anne
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Posts: 46991
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010

posted September 11, 2013 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jwhop:
This is the kind of blind, irrational, illogical drivel leftists are known for.

Napalm is a blend of petroleum jelly and gasoline. You could slather it all over yourself, breath the fumes and suffer no ill effects...unless someone flicked a bic. Napalm is not a chemical weapon.

Herbicides are intended to be fatal to vegetation but it's not a chemical weapon...unless you're talking about killing off crab grass. Imagine a weapon used against humans which causes symptoms years later...if ever. Yeah, that's real effective on a battlefield.

Phosphorus is used on the battlefield to create smoke for obscuring troop movements. The inhalation of phosphorus smoke is not hazardous to health. Phosphorus is used to make strikable matches. It's also used in toothpaste and shampoo. It's also an element and necessary for plant growth. In the lexicon of fertilizers, it's the "P" in NPK...Nitrogen/Phosphorus/Potassium..potash.

We had this discussion on this forum years ago...before you showed up to lead us all to leftist truth and justice.

The usual suspects attempted to equate the actions of George Bush with Saddam Hussein. To the usual suspects, the actions of Bush were worse than Saddam's.

But what they were really saying...after striping all the bullshiiit out of their nonsense was...

leave our little murdering [b]SOCIALIST dictator alone. All the blither, blather, bloviation, bullshiiit, lies and petitions were affirmative votes for Saddam Hussein.[/B]


True intelligence at work. See it, live it and learn it

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.


http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 11, 2013 09:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:


An even more effective form of chemical warfare was the development of napalm. This jelly-like substance derived from palmitic and naphthalenic acids, was a high-efficiency incendiary material which burnt fiercely for long periods of time when compared to petrol. On contact with organic materials, napalm continues to burn with a violent intense flame - see photo below. Anybody covered with napalm faced the appalling prospect of becoming a human torch. In World War Two, napalm was used against soldiers in an entrenched position (such as a machine gun post) and also in a general capacity whereby it spread terror amongst those on the receiving end of an attack – and thus did a great deal to undermine morale.

It seems in WW11, it was considered a chemical weapon
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/chemical_warfare_and_world_war_t.htm

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Christian, Jew, Muslim, Shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the Mystery, unique and not to be judged.
Rumi

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Catalina
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Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 11, 2013 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Andif you've ever held a match too close to your nose when you lit your cigar you KNOW that that tiny amount causes a burning sensation. I don't suppose HUGE amounts are any more congenial to your health

White phosphorus is a material made from a common allotrope of the chemical element phosphorus that is used in smoke, tracer, illumination and incendiary munitions.[1] Other common names include WP, and the slang term "Willie Pete," which is dated from its use in Vietnam, and is still sometimes used in military jargon.[2] As an incendiary weapon, white phosphorus burns fiercely and can ignite cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles.


In addition to its offensive capabilities, white phosphorus is also a highly efficient smoke-producing agent, burning quickly and producing an instant blanket of smoke. As a result, smoke-producing white phosphorus munitions are very common, particularly as smoke grenades for infantry, loaded in grenade launchers on tanks and other armored vehicles, or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars. These create smoke screens to mask movement, position or the origin of fire from the enemy. White phosphorus is used in bombs, artillery, mortars, and short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact.

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Catalina
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From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 11, 2013 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agent Orange or Herbicide Orange (HO) is one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as[i] part of its chemical warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971. Vietnam estimates 400,000 people were killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects as a result of its use.[1][2] The Red Cross of Vietnam estimates that up to 1 million people are disabled or have health problems due to Agent Orange.[3] The United States government has dismissed these figures as unreliable and unrealistically high.[4][5]
A 50:50 mixture of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, it was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense primarily by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical. The 2,4,5-T used to produce Agent Orange was contaminated with 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD), an extremely toxic dioxin compound. It was given its name from the color of the orange-striped 55 US gallon (208 l) barrels in which it was shipped, and was by far the most widely used of the so-called "Rainbow Herbicides".[6]
During the Vietnam War, between 1962 and 1971, the United States military sprayed nearly 20,000,000 US gallons (76,000,000 l) of material containing chemical herbicides and defoliants mixed with jet fuel in Vietnam, eastern Laos and parts of Cambodia, as part of Operation Ranch Hand.[7][8] The program's goal was to defoliate forested and rural land, depriving guerrillas of cover; another goal was to induce forced draft urbanization, destroying the ability of peasants to support themselves in the countryside, and forcing them to flee to the U.S. dominated cities, thus depriving the guerrillas of their rural support and food supply.[8][9]

Since when does the fact that the WORST DAMAGE occurs years later (unless you died quickly from overload or eating the food) mean something is not a chemical weapon?

Do you really think that just because it doesn't leave someone writhing in torment, or their flesh melting off or some other B-movie necessity, it is not a CHEMICAL WEAPON?

If the bank robber is your child, is it not a criminal offense?

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Catalina
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From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 11, 2013 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And when, as in the Agent Blue program, the targeted "herbs" were food crops designed to create famine, no HORRENDOUS AGONIZING death was involved unless you call starving horrendous and agonizing

HOWEVER a CHEMICAL WEAPON was used to starve people out of the countryside into the cities so our boys wouldn't have to risk quite so much resistance ie injury. Pity they brought it back home with them.

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Randall
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From: Saturn next to Charmainec
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posted September 11, 2013 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pesticides are not chemical weapons. When we use that term, we are talking about poisonous substances intended to kill humans. Napalm is a weapon. Leftist science is like leftist math--it doesn't add up. I guess smog is a chemical weapon, too? And cig smoke?

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Catalina
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Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 11, 2013 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Both of those are byproducts of everyday pastimes, Randall, they were not used to destroy as weapons in war. There is a difference between using massive amounts of chemical poisons as weapons and smoking cigarettes, just as there is a difference between lighting a fire in the hearth and burning someone's house down.

I would love to know how abhorrence of chemical weapons has anything to do with "leftist" or "rightist"?

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted September 11, 2013 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I would love to know how abhorrence of chemical weapons has anything to do with "leftist" or "rightist"?

Indeed It is NOT rightest/leftest nor is the notion of what constitutes chemical war fare.

It is silly to quibble over weapons that kill and maim.
Napalm and agent orange were both deadly weapons and nothing to tout as humane.
Lable it as you wish but but it`s nonsensical to claim one as a harmless defoliant or another simply a jelly and gas mixture.

quote:
Why was phosphorous so deadly? As a phosphorous bomb/grenade exploded, fragments of white phosphorous would be scattered over a wide area and the particles spontaneously exploded on contact with air. If these particles came into contact with skin, they had a tendency to stick and cause very painful skin burns with the almost certainty of taking someone out of a combat zone.

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Christian, Jew, Muslim, Shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the Mystery, unique and not to be judged.
Rumi

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Randall
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From: Saturn next to Charmainec
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posted September 11, 2013 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We might as well call bullets and bombs chemical weapons, too.

The international community knows the difference.

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Ami Anne
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Posts: 46991
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010

posted September 11, 2013 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Pesticides are not chemical weapons. When we use that term, we are talking about poisonous substances intended to kill humans. Napalm is a weapon. Leftist science is like leftist math--it doesn't add up. I guess smog is a chemical weapon, too? And cig smoke?


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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.


http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/

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Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 206
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted September 11, 2013 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes it would be nice if we acknowledged that bullets and bombs kill and maim just as many innocents as chemicals do.

The international community certainly considers Agent Orange a chemical weapon.

The difference is that chemical weapons don't kill you by rupturing membranes forcefully, but by absorption or nonviolent contact .

As do depleted uranium bombs, by the way. It's the dust or GAS as they disperse that cause harm.

The fact that Sarin works faster doesn't alter the definition of chemicals.

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jwhop
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Posts: 6273
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 11, 2013 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"We might as well call bullets and bombs chemical weapons, too.

The international community knows the difference."..Randall

Well said.

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