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Author Topic:   If you fear Communism, you may want to read this.
Catalina
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posted February 27, 2014 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is not Communism to pay workers enough to cover their rent and expenses, it is good business. If businesses want to stay up and running they have to recognize that their employees are also consumers. I don't mind paying for foodstamps for someone who can't find work for WHATEVER reason. I do mind paying for foodstamps so Walmart and friends can skimp on wages. In Europe they manage to pay twice what they pay here, and the goods cost the same, and the profits have not disappeared.

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AcousticGod
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posted February 27, 2014 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Military families rely on $100 million worth of food stamps a year. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/19/food-stamps-military_n_3462465.html

I agree with Cat. Companies shouldn't be able to pay out investors while their own employees need government assistance. There's a fundamental problem there, and that should very well be a concern among Conservatives as well.

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Sibyl
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posted February 27, 2014 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sibyl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's just a fact that the free market doesn't work. Unfortunately, it's based on the rationalist model in its truest form. As humans are limited information processors, this is simply impossible for us (as all psychologists will tell you). IE, there must be an organ of control or else it will collapse again as it did in 2008 (not saying this should be complete state control). People were so surprised when the banks weren't displaying rational behavior. They shouldn't have been. We are biased in our perceptions, and are generally poor at risk estimation and predicting future events. It's just how our brains were built. Evolutionarily speaking it's built for mobility, not complex reasoning.

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AcousticGod
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posted February 27, 2014 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm astounded to read this here.

Sounds like you're also interested in the actual capabilities of the mind.

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Catalina
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posted February 27, 2014 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you follow the money, sibyl, the banks have made out like bsndits, and Chase and Sachs have been busy buying up all kinds of industries...in other words the free market.is being taken over by the big cheeses rather than the govt. So you are right, it doesn't work without regulation no matter what the theories say. Not because they weren't being rational, though...

Without some protections and a healthy govt to rein them in the kings of industry so admired in the gilded age will crown themselves kings of everything...sonething the Regressives among us like to ignore and deny...

That is not the same as wanting Communism though the rightwing mefia like to pretend it is.

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Randall
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posted February 27, 2014 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Companies can pay what they want. If they don't pay enough, they lose workers. That's what a free market dictates. In what universe should an employee be paid more than an investor? Investors get dividends according to what they invest. There is no comparison whatsoever to an employee. Salaries are based upon risk and responsibility. That's why CEOs make more than regional/district managers, managers make more than asst. managers, and wage earners make less than management. CEOs are responsible for the entire organization. As such, they earn top salaries.

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Catalina
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posted February 27, 2014 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know why you're stuck on employees earning equal to CEOs or investors. No one has suggested paying boxboys six-figure salaries. But the idea that it's okay for huge employers to squeeze every last drop out of employees and not pay them enough to eat is just as ridiculous.

The free market is what is driving this change. That is why Walmart shares are going down, with their profits, while Costco's are going up. Who wants to work for Walmart, undergo the tedium and indignity of Social Services redtape, and sell inferior products when companies like Costco deliver value AND good wages with benefits?

As I said earlier, Henry Ford understood this and his parking lots were full of Fords...and his bank account full of millions. Hardly a disaster, was it?


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Randall
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posted February 27, 2014 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Then let Walmart's stock go down. I doubt it's due to their wages. If that were the case, they would have trouble finding employees. But such is the free market. Someday, Walmart may have to raise wages to remain competitive. But the free market will determine that, not a bunch of bleeding heart Liberal bellyachers.

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Randall
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posted February 27, 2014 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Military families rely on $100 million worth of food stamps a year. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/19/food-stamps-military_n_3462465.html

I agree with Cat. Companies shouldn't be able to pay out investors while their own employees need government assistance. There's a fundamental problem there, and that [b]should very well be a concern among Conservatives as well. [/B]


It's not a company's responsibility to ensure their employees are not on government assistance. Their only obligation is to follow minimum wage and the countless other laws and regulations. Walmart is not responsible for paying each employee whatever that individual needs, depending on a number of factors including how many children they have. Why should an employer be responsible for feeding all the children an employee has and raise the wage for each individual accordingly? That's what we have public assistance for. Some people may have one child. Some may have seven. That is not Walmart's responsibility.

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Catalina
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posted February 27, 2014 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those bellyachers , as you call them, are part of the free market. I don't understand your belligerence toward people who want to make their businesses to everyone's benefit. You say you want to help people thru the law more than money yet you champion someone like Walmart who have outrun the competition much longer than they deserved by virtue of being rich enough to undercut the competition. Now companies like COSTCO and WINCO are practicing business that is good for everyone including employees what is the problem? And

WHAT is communist about this idea? Your continued harping on demands no one has suggested (that everyone earn the same) is no argument at all, is it?

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Randall
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posted February 27, 2014 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem is that you presume to dictate to Walmart what they should pay their employees. That's why we have a minimum wage. They pay what the law says. If someone doesn't like it, they can go work elsewhere. Or go to college and get a career.

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Randall
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posted February 27, 2014 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Make their businesses to everyone's benefit? By what control do you plan to implement that? And by what authority? That's absurd.

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Randall
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posted February 27, 2014 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What you should be focusing on is raising the minimum wage. Obama had the votes to raise it early on. But it didn't come up till now. Why? Because Democrats want to deflect from the Obamacare catastrophe in an election year. Speaking of which, you can blame Obamacare for full time workers being cut to part time later this year.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted February 28, 2014 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Without equity, there won't be risk capital. Without capitalization, there won't be a business. Who owns the equity? The people who own the company: not the government, and not the community. The owners of the company elect their own board of directors, which hires the company chief executive. The owners of the company govern the company accordingly in compliance with the law. They earn a return on their equity investment. Those who are hired by the company to do their jobs in return for a paycheck, including the CEO. Employees don't own the company. The senior management of Walmart owns less than 0.5% of the voting stock. The company is run to provide a maximal return on equity investment to the shareholders, and that is the prime objective. Everything else is a secondary consideration. Without the equity/owners, no banks and no bond markets will provide debt capital. There would be no jobs and the government would collect no taxes. So, who runs the show? The government? Bunch of inconsequential bureaucrats. The people picketing outside with signs? Please.

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Randall
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posted February 28, 2014 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well-said, YTA. You would think someone who works for a bank would get that. Liberals don't get much of anything, though. Thanks for the clarification.

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Catalina
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posted February 28, 2014 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seems to me its you who are not getting that not everyone does business that way. Or wants to! In fact some people believe that model is a big part of the problem in businesses today. Employees without humanity, shareholders who pay no attention except to their payout, starting in the hole, which means the bank really owns your business...meh. Some have better ideas, and it is regressive to suggest nothing is going to change. But keep to the failed model that is putting Chase and Sachs in the drivers seat in industries around the world if you like

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted February 28, 2014 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs do not drive industries. They are just financial institutions. Banks do not make decisions for the companies. They only provide the debt capital, and creditors are not owners. It is the equity capital that drives businesses, and JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs are only in the business of earning fees from the companies.

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jwhop
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posted February 28, 2014 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now O'Bomber wants to destroy another 500,000 jobs after all the other millions he's destroyed with his insane Marxist policies. Raise the minimum wage. Right! Check!

Then, the nitwit O'Bomber wants to import another 20-30 million low skilled workers into the American workforce to compete for low paying jobs in the US...which drives low skilled labor rates down further. Unless of course they're artificially propped up by federal fiat.

There's no intelligent life there at all.

Why is that leftists who are the least capable among us intellectually always gravitate to government. I suppose never having to be accountable for their actions is a big plus.

But, there's an election coming in November and another election in 2016. Though demoscats are trying to run away from O'Bomber's insanity, da folks know who's marched in lockstep with the Marxist Messiah to destroy the US economy and destroy the best health care delivery system in the world.

This minimum wage nonsense is an attempt at distracting voters from the utter failure of O'Bomber and his Socialist demoscats in Congress on the economy and O'BomberCare.

February 28, 2014
Fed Chairman Yellen backs CBO study on minimum wage job loss
Thomas Lifson

Janet Yellen, the newly-installed head of the Federal Reserve System, is exercising her political independence (she cannot be fired during her five year term as Chairman of the Fed’s Board of Governors) and telling the truth about the new minimum wage proposed by President Obama. Joseph Lawler reports in the Examiner:

Federal Reserve Chairwoman Janet Yellen lent credence Thursday to a Congressional Budget Office study of the minimum wage that White House economists had criticized for its finding that an increase favored by President Obama would cost 500,000 jobs.

In an unusual criticism of the nonpartisan budget scorekeeper, Jason Furman, chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, had responded to the CBO report by directly challenging its estimates of job losses, claiming that they "do not reflect the overall consensus view of economists."

Yellen, who held the same position Furman does under President Bill Clinton, disagreed with that assessment at a Senate Banking Committee hearing.

"CBO is as qualified as anyone to evaluate that literature," Yellen said in response to a question from Sen. Dean Heller, R-Nev. "I wouldn’t want to argue with their assessment.”

This is refreshing indeed. Furman’s statement was shocking in its dishonesty. He was pandering to the president at whose pleasure he serves. The Democrats are ginning up a campaign issue and want to pretend that raising the price of something does not cause demand to shrink. That is dishonest.

This is a very encouraging sign that the Fed Chairman will be an honest policy maker, and may pose further difficulties for the Democrat president.
http://americanthinker.com/blog/2014/02/fed_chairman_yellen_backs_cbo_study_on_minimum_wage_job_loss.html

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Randall
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posted February 28, 2014 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, the minimum wage talk is to distract and still try to win votes. In November 2014 is going to be D Day for the Democrats. Supply and demand is an economic law, and the Democrats just don't get it.

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Catalina
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posted February 28, 2014 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, jwhop, this is not about legislation for minimum wage, but a shift in how businesses are structured, which puts you off topic...

And YTA, I beg to differ with you. The big banks are now, and have been, buying large portions of the industries they may or may not have funded...
http://m.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-vampire-squid-strikes-again-the-mega-banks-most-devious-scam-yet-20140212

Thanks to legislation largely written by them and/or their lobbyists.

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AcousticGod
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posted February 28, 2014 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Because Democrats want to deflect from the Obamacare catastrophe in an election year. Speaking of which, you can blame Obamacare for full time workers being cut to part time later this year.

And you wonder why I don't think you'd respect Obama more if he stuck to his guns. He did so with Obamacare, and you've been carrying on about it ever since. You don't consider that a moral victory for Obama, though he was able to do something most Democrats have been unable to do.

quote:
Thanks for the clarification.

YTA's post wasn't any kind of clarification. It was a bit of self-serving rhetoric. There is no show without the employees. Obvious.

quote:
Liberals don't get much of anything, though.

Says the guy that's been getting a lot obviously wrong lately.

quote:
The company is run to provide a maximal return on equity investment to the shareholders, and that is the prime objective. Everything else is a secondary consideration

But shouldn't be as the articles I've posted here suggest. The Great Depression came out of the atmosphere we currently inhabit. You know what they say about those that disregard history.

Ten years after PriceClub (CostCo's originator) started it was considered the best managed company by Forbes magazine. It had been profitable after only three years of existence. If you look up CostCo's stock performance versus Walmart's, you'll find article after article noting how much better CostCo does and has done. CostCo's beating WalMart and Target both. It's embarrassing to be a WalMart in the face of CostCo. Meanwhile, Survey Says: Walmart Is Worst Discount Retailer & Worst Supermarket. Trader Joe's also kicks WalMart's ass (The contenders included all the big names in supersize grocery chains, including Safeway, Giant Food, Stop & Shop, Publix, Whole Foods and Walmart, but the overall favorite store named by consumers was a small retailer with a neighborhood-market feel and very few national brands: Trader Joe’s.)

As pro-business, pro-equity people, you don't really have any room to say anything derogatory about CostCo's business model.

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Randall
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posted February 28, 2014 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Woulda coulda shoulda. It is what it is. The world is the way that it is--not as you envision it, Liberals.

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Randall
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posted February 28, 2014 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Go work for CostCo, AG. Walmart isn't hurting for business. And employees are free to work wherever they please. Yes, employees are part of the equation, as they should be, in a free market economy.

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Randall
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posted February 28, 2014 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I really don't see your point. CostCo and Walmart are two different business models. You can't force any business to act like CostCo. I doubt Walmart will be closing down ever.

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Randall
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posted February 28, 2014 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Obama didn't stick to his guns at all with Obamacare. He conned us to get it passed.

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