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Author Topic:   Chicken Littles Admit California Drought Not Caused By Man!
Randall
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posted December 09, 2014 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Natural temperature swings in the ocean, not global warming, are driving California's extreme drought, according to a new government study.

Researchers said sea surface temperatures in the equatorial Pacific Ocean set up an atmospheric roadblock off the West Coast that diverted winter storms away from California. The state relies on winter rain and snow for most of its yearly water.

The roadblock is a persistent ridge of high pressure that first formed in 2011 during a La Niņa event. Even though La Niņa broke down after the 2011-2012 winter, the western equatorial Pacific Ocean remained a warm water bull's-eye, a pattern known to trigger droughts in the Southwest and California, the researchers report.

In the new study, scientists determined that the high-pressure system, dubbed the "ridiculously resilient ridge" by a California forecaster, continued through the 2013-2014 winter because of these favorable ocean temperatures. The pool of warm water generates atmospheric winds that form patterns of high and low pressure (called planetary waves) that can get stuck off western North America as a high-pressure ridge. [The 5 Worst Droughts in US History]

The ridge and its accompanying drought are opposite the conditions that climate models predict under global warming, lead study author Richard Seager, a professor at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in New York, said today (Dec. 8) during a news briefing. Climate models project low-pressure systems off the West Coast, with wetter winters and drier springs for central and northern California, he said. "Overall, it's a shorter, sharper rainy season," Seager said.

The report, "Causes and Predictability of the 2011-14 California Drought," was released today by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal. The study compares drought observations with 160 climate model simulations to tease out the most important factors controlling the drought. The researchers plan to submit the work to the Journal of Climate, Seager said.

The study authors are not questioning whether climate change exists, only its effects on the short-term drought.

"There is no question global warming continues to unfold," said Marty Hoerling, study co-author and a researcher with NOAA's Earth System Research Laboratory in Boulder, Colorado. "The three-year drought is not related to the overall warming, but [droughts in California] are something that happens time and time again."

Scientists not involved with the study, such as Penn State meteorologist Michael Mann, criticized the report for not including the effects of California's record-high temperatures in 2014. Heat makes droughts drier by amplifying moisture loss from soil and plants and increasing water demand.

According to the new report, which measures drought by precipitation, last winter was California's sixth-driest since 1895, and the state's three-year drought is second only to the historic 1974 to 1977 dry spell, which sparked California's first big water conservation movement.

But if one measures drought by soil moisture, an indicator of both precipitation and temperature, then California's drought is the worst in 1,200 years, according to a study published last week (Dec. 3) in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.
http://news.yahoo.com/california-drought-linked-natural-causes-not-climate-change-230935805.html

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Catalina
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posted December 09, 2014 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Removal of water from aquifers by fracking and bottlers like Nestle has contributed to ground dryness. Last year we had one big storm in my part of California.. which is not as dry as many regions though the state pools reserves so we are under the same restrictions as others. It was a doozie and supplied as much water as we usually get thru half a winter. ...short sharp wet season describes It perfectly

A lot of the prOblem is in management but you're right its a pattern and not necessarily part of the warmers picture. ..though more severe droughts ARE part of the models. California is not as desertified as Arizona but a lot of its water is imported and not enough is preserved.

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Randall
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posted December 28, 2014 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no warming.

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AcousticGod
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posted December 29, 2014 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    The study authors are not questioning whether climate change exists, only its effects on the short-term drought.

    "There is no question global warming continues to unfold," said Marty Hoerling, study co-author and a researcher with NOAA's Earth System Research Laboratory in Boulder, Colorado. "The three-year drought is not related to the overall warming, but [droughts in California] are something that happens time and time again." http://news.yahoo.com/california-drought-linked-natural-causes-not-climate-cha nge-230935805.html

    According to the new report, which measures drought by precipitation, last winter was California's sixth-driest since 1895, and the state's three-year drought is second only to the historic 1974 to 1977 dry spell, which sparked California's first big water conservation movement.

    But if one measures drought by soil moisture, an indicator of both precipitation and temperature, then California's drought is the worst in 1,200 years, according to a study published last week (Dec. 3) in the journal Geophysical Research Letters. http://news.yahoo.com/california-drought-linked-natural-causes-not-climate-cha nge-230935805.html

No biggie.

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Randall
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posted December 29, 2014 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Of course, they are not going to question climate change. The point is that they are being honest (a rarity among those circles) and not jumping on any opportunity to blame something on global warming (like is often done).

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AcousticGod
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posted December 29, 2014 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's NOT rare for scientists to be honest (that's an ideological belief; not something that has been proven ever). Climate scientists in particular primarily have the job of measuring things. They report what they observe. The fact that an observation doesn't directly contradict global warming, doesn't do anything or say anything about global climate just like a localized climate event doesn't speak to the overall climate warmth.

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Randall
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posted December 29, 2014 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no question this fraud continues to unfold.

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Randall
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posted December 29, 2014 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's not rare for true scientists to be honest, but climate "science" is far from true science. "Consensus" is a political term. No true scientist would ever use that term, because science is about the scientific method, not consensus. By repeatedly falling back on that terminology, they reveal what their true motives are.

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Catalina
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posted December 29, 2014 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So..there is no Consensus that the Earth is a sphere? That planets exist? That the sun shines and we revolve around it yearly?

How about no consensus as to the water cycle from ocean to vapour to cloud to rain to earth and rivers and back to ocean (I'm no scientist so oversimplifying here)

How about no consensus that a human gestation period is normally around 9 months.

No consensus that we need to eat, drink and breathe to live.

No consensus that Winters are cold and summers hot..unless you're near the equator.

No consensus that water boils at 212*

Flat Earth Society notwithstanding, I would say there is plenty of consensus in Science.

Not that it is impossible for the consensus to change, but while it lasts, it is widespread in science and other fields too.

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AcousticGod
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posted December 29, 2014 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
There is no question this fraud continues to unfold.

Only among Conservatives.

quote:
It's not rare for true scientists to be honest, but climate "science" is far from true science.

Obviously false. Why even try to state something as obviously untrue as this? I don't get it.

quote:
"Consensus" is a political term.

It's not. The only reason the issue is political at all is because Conservatives choose to have a viewpoint at odds with the evidence.

quote:
No true scientist would ever use that term, because science is about the scientific method, not consensus. By repeatedly falling back on that terminology, they reveal what their true motives are.

They wouldn't have to if Conservatives weren't acting stubborn the way that they are. Furthermore, scientists within the climate community are constantly checking one another's work as well as addressing even the most outlandish of "skeptical" claims put out there by interests that would rather stick their heads in the sand.

Attempting to use the word "consensus" as the basis of a point on this also seems far-fetched from just a practical standpoint. "Consensus" comes into play precisely because people have questioned whether these conclusions are accurate, and to what degree is there unity among the scientific community on this point. When you consider that most skeptics with science backgrounds don't actually work in this field, nor publish papers, nor submit their work for review, it's rather easy to see why they are not part of the consensus. When a skeptic with a science background goes ahead and attempts to verify something normally outside of his field of expertise (in a very public fashion using Conservative money to fund the study), and instead ends up confirming this consensus, it's easy to confirm that the consensus is made of people that actually study the topic, and not crackpots.

When you become a lawyer, and when the opposition gains traction on a really silly premise I hope you remember these conversations. The people with the most adequate facts and information don't always get the fairest shake despite the fact that the case should be a slam dunk.

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Randall
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posted December 29, 2014 08:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What evidence are you talking about? The evidence that we recently had the hottest year on record? Or the evidence that there has been no warming at all in two decades? How can both be true?

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AcousticGod
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posted December 30, 2014 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We've discussed this previously. Maybe you should come at the subject as if you were a lawyer, because it's clear you are not keeping up with the other side of the debate and YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT SIDE if you ever hope to be successful in convincing anyone else of your unfounded opinion.

Global temperatures rose rapidly for almost three decades, and then leveled off somewhat, so you have a globe that is stuck in this high register of global temperature. The temperature isn't necessarily constant, though, so there has been some mild variation. That's how we can have MANY of the hottest years of record in the last decade while not showing any STATISTICAL warming. Statistical warming is a trend observed over several years.

Look at the chart here: http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/

Notice that after 2000 the five year mean line is fairly straight, which indicates neither warming nor cooling. There's also seven dots above the mean line since 2000, and just five under the mean line. Also, notice that we're stuck in this +0.5 degree Celcius anomaly.

Page three here shows the same (but includes NOAA records): http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/NOAA_NASA_2013_Global_Temperatures_Joint_Briefing.pdf

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Randall
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posted December 30, 2014 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When you show data by people who are responsible for covering up and falsifying data, you don't help your case. I don't even go to those sites and look at that nonsense.

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Randall
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posted December 30, 2014 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't bother going to the NOAA or IPCC sites. I already know their position. They just repeat the same mantra over and over: The earth is going to be destroyed by the burning of fossil fuels, yada yada yada. If there were any warming, it's just part of natural variability, and it's not related to CO2. Nothing to be alarmed about.

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AcousticGod
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posted December 31, 2014 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's literally impossible to hurt your case by citing the known experts in that field. As a lawyer, you will be getting professional witnesses for exactly this reason.

Those sites don't repeat the same things over and over. They continue to measure, analyze, and report as their jobs specify.

Nor can you reasonably disqualify them without a strong institutional counterpoint. Anywhere one might logically look for information about the climate will come across the "consensus" view. Anywhere that people DON'T look for legitimate climate science is where you'll find people that bolster your belief.

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Randall
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posted December 31, 2014 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They cloud the data with fear mongering, which shows a political agenda. All grant funding for climate related studies should be ended.

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AcousticGod
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posted January 02, 2015 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The above kind of post, to me, just sounds a little crazy on it's face. We've tackled these ideas, beliefs, and feelings before. Virtually none of your perceived observances would seem true to anyone not indoctrinated in a false narrative on the subject. An alien coming down to learn about our climate would have a difficult time believing that there is a concerted effort among a single group of worldwide scientists to effect political change under the guise of saving the environment. What would predispose just one branch of legitimate scientific exploration to falsify something like this? You have been informed several times that even among the few skeptics that work in this field there is NO dispute that global warming has happened. Their only point of departure is whether such warming portends danger. They don't think that these scientists fudged their work in order to fabricate a falsehood.

And it keeps coming to mind that you are going to be a lawyer. You are going to have to be able to understand opinions not held by you at some point.
Can you imagine if you were well prepared for trial? You have all your precedents prepared, and you know what precedents the other side might throw at you. Then one day you notice online that all these novices are voicing opinions about your case that are absolutely absurd. You know they're wrong. It's perfectly obvious to you. Yet, they claim that it's YOUR intent to deceive people with what you're claiming. All you've done is your due diligence, which is standard procedure for you. You may not even be that emotionally invested in the outcome. You just know how it's going to play out because you have the experience and knowledge to make such a determination. Now swap out yourself for a climate scientist.

There's an element of this where the demonization of people just doesn't jive with how people actually are, especially scientific people.

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Randall
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posted January 02, 2015 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would presume an intelligent life form that traveled vast distances to reach this planet (having the technology to do so) would be aware that CO2 is not a cause of warming.

Global warming has happened? How so? If you mean that we have warmed coming out of a little ice age, then yes. But no warming has occurred for two decades, despite high increases in CO2.

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AcousticGod
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posted January 02, 2015 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You should presume otherwise as that is already settled science, and has not been discredited/disputed in any scientifically relevant way.

What do you mean, "How so?" You know how it happened. You also should know from previous discussions that the ocean has been absorbing the excess heat. You can read some of the articles I posted in the other thread to learn more.

And you, of course, have no comment on human nature or the absurdity of thinking that these scientists are colluding to deceive people.

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