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LeeLoo2014
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From: Venus cornering Neptune
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posted December 03, 2016 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Far-right (fascism, racism, national extremism)


The far right or extreme right is a political label used to identify parties and movements based on fascist, racist and/or extremely reactionary ideologies. Officially those on the far right embrace the concept of the "inequality of outcome", meaning that one group is naturally better than another. This can apply to everything from absolute monarchies to Nazism, meaning that many far-rightists oppose others on the far-right who have a different idea of what the ruling class should be.

The label of "far-right" is a reference to the French Revolution to refer to those who sat on the right-wing of the Assembly and were in favor of an essentially unrestrained aristocracy in terms of the power allocated to them, essentially wanting to either maintain or (later) restore the old order. They also tended to be opposed to the Enlightenment and secularism in favor of more conservative religious influence in government.

From the start of the 20th century onwards more "populist" reactionary political philosophies such as ultranationalism/fascism, racial supremacy (often to a degree that was considered extreme even by the standards of the time), and politically-oriented religious fundamentalism started to overtake the increasingly unpopular extreme pro-Aristocrat agenda that made up what could be considered the former far-right. To what degree there is much of a difference between them in practice is up for debate and usually changes from country to country. In the 21st century the far-right in the Western world has increasingly drifted towards broadly authoritarian nativist thought, often influenced by former fascist movements.


Common opinions of the far right

As far right is a neologism used by others than those considered far right, the definition is somewhat subjective. It is sometimes used interchangeably with "radical right", though most academics believe there is a difference between the two.

Anti-immigration often combined with Islamophobia or other prejudice against the predominating ethnicity and/or religion of immigrants; in many cases outright racism, such as white supremacy and/or ethnic-related conspiracy theories such as Holocaust denial, Eurabia and ideas about "white extinction". Historical far right movements have included everything from anti-Chinese sentiment to anti-Catholicism and even prejudice against Nordic people

Anti-rationalism, irrationalism, defending its pet beliefs even from reason

Anti-socialism and extreme anti-communism (as in endorsing conspiracy theories surrounding the subject, or committing massacres against them), though in some cases supporting a limited welfare state and occasionally even "state capitalism" (except in the United States where any sort of welfare is seen as communism). On the other hand in the States a number of paleoconservatives and laissez-faire types are more hostile to a welfare state and may desire to see the social safety net gutted entirely.

Nationalism, possibly including historical revisionism

Pro-life and promoting childbirth (see also white extinction scenario)

Supporting family values and traditional gender roles, and is virtually always homophobic[1]

Tough stance on crime, probably in support of capital punishment

Environmentalism might be prevalent, especially in a "protection home and soil" kind of way, though other far-right groups champion anti-environmental sentiment (climate change denial etc) A more Christian Democratic approach to the environment ("protecting God's creation") can also be present in clerical fascism

Questioning universal civil rights and human rights.

Reactionary beliefs, meaning beliefs that things were better some time ago (often before some major legislative change, such as civil rights laws). The "evil era" tends to be the 1960s, which were a period of great change in much of the Western World, whereas the "good old times" can be anything from the 1950s to pre-industrial times.

A far right group without even trace amounts of Anti-Semitism is rare - even in places where Judaism is rare and there isn't even Jewish immigration

Racism- Same with Anti-semitism above, almost always found, even in trace amounts.

Religious Fundamentalism- Religion is often very intertwined with far right beliefs, even if said far right beliefs conflict with their religious beliefs.

Conspiracy theories- The far right & conspiracy theories go together better than bread & butter.

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LeeLoo2014
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posted December 03, 2016 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Far-left (communism)

The term far left is a label used for political movements and parties that champion the abolition of private property and the achievement and upholding of a largely equal society in terms of "to each according to need" commodity distribution, rejection of currency, and advocacy of equal rights. Most of these movements fall under the label of either communist, left-wing anarchist, or socialist. If you hear it in American politics chances are it's being used as a snarl word to describe any liberal.


Common stances

The abolition of private property.

The abolition of class and perfect or near-perfect economic equality among people.

In contrast to common opinion nearly all far-left philosophies call for the eventual abolition of government.

Usually the abolition of discrimination, since this is seen as a method of dividing the lower class from unity with one another. This one's somewhat of a headscratcher considering the extreme social conservatism present in many communist dictatorships such as under Stalinist or Maoist systems.

Many used to call for a single united world, usually without borders, though the idea of "Socialism in one country" caused some far-left movements to become highly nationalistic.

Methods used to obtain said goals range from embracing pacifism (unlike the far-right) to outright violence.

Theory vs Practice

Rarely do far-left movements actually enact these goals since in practice the most ruthless members of these movements tend to position themselves to take it over, at which point they tend to devolve into highly nationalistic and brutal dictatorships.

Philosophies

Communism, ranging from Trotskyism, Stalinism, Marxism, Maoism, and so on.
Anarchist left political thought.
Hard greens may be labeled far-left.
Some socialists, such as De Leonists.

Not far-left

Like the label far-right, the term is oftentimes used inappropriately and pejoratively to movements that are not actually of the extreme left, such as;

Social Democracy- As social democrats accept the presence of a widespread market system, private property, and some degree of class inequality they are not far-left. This label is even more absurd when applied to "Third Way" social democrats who are essentially centrists.

Social Liberalism- As social liberals are even more toned down than old-styled social democrats (as they do not advocate for nationalization of any business) it's really hard to see how they are "far-left" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Juche- This one's actually debatable. Most scholars today believe North Korea's ideology is actually much closer to ethnic fascism than communism though. While this may be seen as bordering on a No True Scotsman it's worth noting they recently removed all mentions of communism from their constitution in recent years, although their constitution still begins with the phrase "The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a socialist fatherland", and still contains dozens of references to socialism.[1])

Nazism- Nazism is a form of fascism which is inherently far-right. While the Nazi's did enact some policies that could be seen as "left" by the US political sphere, their stance on ultra-nationalism, racial superiority, their promotion of social inequality and etc. makes them far-right. One must also remember that the NSDAP means "National Socialist German Workers Party", while socialist and workers are far-left, wingnuts like to ignore that "National" and "German" were far-right, "patriotic" terms in 1930's Germany. Economists also rate Nazi Germany as centrist in terms of economic stance as it had no clearly defined economic policy and hated both communists and capitalists.

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LeeLoo2014
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Posts: 18419
From: Venus cornering Neptune
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posted December 03, 2016 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) is a personality and ideological variable studied in political, social, and personality psychology. Right-wing authoritarians are people who have a high degree of willingness to submit to authorities they perceive as established and legitimate, who adhere to societal conventions and norms, and who are hostile and punitive in their attitudes towards people who don't adhere to them. They value uniformity and are in favour of using group authority, including coercion, to achieve it.[1]

History

The concept of right-wing authoritarianism was introduced in 1981 by Canadian-American psychologist Bob Altemeyer,[2] as a refinement of the authoritarian personality theory originally pioneered by University of California at Berkeley researchers Theodor W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel Levinson, and Nevitt Sanford.[3] After extensive questionnaire research and statistical analysis, Altemeyer found that only three of the original nine hypothesized components of the model correlated together: authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, and conventionalism. Researchers have traditionally assumed that there was just one kind of authoritarian personality, who could be either a follower or a leader. The discovery that followers and leaders are usually different types of authoritarians is based on research done by Sam McFarland.[4]

Assessment

Right-wing authoritarianism is measured by the RWA scale, which uses a Likert scale response. The first scored item on the scale states, "Our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us." People who strongly agree with this are showing a tendency toward authoritarian submission (Our country desperately needs a mighty leader), authoritarian aggression (who will do what has to be done to destroy), and conventionalism (the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us).[5]

Psychometrically, the RWA scale was a significant improvement over the F-scale, which was the original measure of the authoritarian personality. The F-scale was worded so that agreement always indicated an authoritarian response, thus leaving it susceptible to the acquiescence response bias. The RWA scale is balanced to have an equal number of pro and anti authoritarian statements. The RWA scale also has excellent internal reliability, with coefficient alpha typically measuring between 0.85 and 0.94.[6]

The RWA scale has been modified over the years, as many of the items lost their social significance as society changed. The current version is 22 items long.[7]

Although Altemeyer has continually updated the scale, researchers in different domains have tended to lock-in on particular versions. For example, in the social psychology of religion, the 1992 version of the scale is still commonly used.[8] In addition, the length of the earlier versions (30 items) led many researchers to develop shorter versions of the scale. Some of those are published [9][10] but many researchers simply select a subset of items to use in their research; a practice that Altemeyer strongly criticizes.[11]

The uni-dimensionality of the scale has also been challenged recently. Funke,[12] for example, showed that it is possible to extract the three underlying dimensions of RWA if the double- and triple-barreled nature of the items is removed. Given the possibility of underlying dimensions emerging from the scale, it is then the case that the scale is no longer balanced, since all the items primarily capturing authoritarian aggression are pro-trait worded (higher scores mean more authoritarianism) and all the items primarily measuring conventionalism are con-trait worded (higher scores mean less authoritarianism).[12] Work by Mavor, Louis and Sibley [13] recently demonstrated that the existence of 2 or 3 factors in the RWA scale reflects real differences in these dimensions rather than acquiescence response bias.[citation needed]


Attitudes

Right-wing authoritarians want society and social interactions structured in ways that increase uniformity and minimize diversity. In order to achieve that, they tend to be in favour of social control, coercion, and the use of group authority to place constraints on the behaviours of people such as political dissidents and ethnic minorities. These constraints might include restrictions on immigration, limits on free speech and association and laws regulating moral behaviour. It is the willingness to support or take action that leads to increased social uniformity that makes right-wing authoritarianism more than just a personal distaste for difference. Right-wing authoritarianism is characterized by obedience to authority, moral absolutism, racial and ethnic prejudice, and intolerance and punitiveness towards dissidents and deviants. In parenting, right-wing authoritarians value children's obedience, neatness, and good manners.[1]

Right-wing authoritarianism is defined by three attitudinal and behavioral clusters which correlate together:[14][15]

Authoritarian submission — a high degree of submissiveness to the authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in the society in which one lives.
Authoritarian aggression — a general aggressiveness directed against deviants, outgroups, and other people that are perceived to be targets according to established authorities.
Conventionalism — a high degree of adherence to the traditions and social norms that are perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities, and a belief that others in one's society should also be required to adhere to these norms.[16]

The terminology of authoritarianism, right-wing authoritarianism, and authoritarian personality tend to be used interchangeably by psychologists, though inclusion of the term "personality" may indicate a psychodynamic interpretation consistent with the original formulation of the theory.[citation needed]

Right and Left

The phrase right wing in right-wing authoritarianism does not necessarily refer to someone's politics, but to psychological preferences and personality. It means that the person tends to follow the established conventions and authorities in society. In theory, the authorities could have either right-wing or left-wing political views.[17]

Milton Rokeach's dogmatism scale was an early attempt to measure pure authoritarianism, whether left or right. The scale was carefully designed to measure closed-mindedness without regard to ideology. Nevertheless, researchers found that it correlated with British political conservativism.[18] In a similar line of research, Philip Tetlock found that right wing beliefs are associated with less integrative complexity than left wing beliefs. People with moderate liberal attitudes had the highest integrative complexity in their cognitions.[19]

There have been a number of other attempts to identify "left-wing authoritarians" in the United States and Canada. These would be people who submit to leftist authorities, are highly conventional to liberal viewpoints, and are aggressive to people who oppose left-wing ideology. These attempts have failed because measures of authoritarianism always correlate at least slightly with the right. However, left-wing authoritarians were found in Eastern Europe [20] There are certainly extremists across the political spectrum, but most psychologists now believe that authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon.[21]

Although authoritarians in North America generally support conservative political parties, this finding must be considered in a historical and cultural context. For example, during the Cold War, authoritarians in the United States were usually anti-communist, whereas in the Soviet Union, authoritarians generally supported the Communist Party and were opposed to capitalism.[22] Thus, authoritarians generally favor the established ways and oppose social and political change. Hence, even politics usually labeled as right or left-wing is not descriptive. While Communism in the Soviet Union is seen as leftist, it still inspired the same responses. Furthermore, recent research indicates that political progressives can exhibit the qualities of authoritarianism when they are asked about conservative Christians.[23] This leaves questions over what makes various ideologies left or right open to interpretation.[citation needed]

According to Karen Stenner, an Australian professor who specializes in authoritarianism, racism and intolerance, authoritarianism is different from conservatism because authoritarianism reflects aversion to difference across space (i.e., diversity of people and beliefs at any given moment), while conservatism reflects aversion to difference over time (i.e., change). Conservatives, Stenner argues, will embrace racial diversity, civil liberties and moral freedom to the extent they are already institutionalized authoritatively-supported traditions, and are therefore supportive of social stability. Conservatives tend to be drawn to authoritarianism when public opinion is fractious and there is a loss of confidence in public institutions, but in general they value stability and certainty over increased uniformity. Authoritarians however, Stenner says, want difference restricted even when so doing would require significant social change and instability.[1]

Research

According to research by Altemeyer, right-wing authoritarians tend to exhibit cognitive errors and symptoms of faulty reasoning. Specifically, they are more likely to make incorrect inferences from evidence and to hold contradictory ideas that result from compartmentalized thinking. They are also more likely to uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs, and they are less likely to acknowledge their own limitations.[15] Whether right-wing authoritarians are less intelligent than average is disputed, with Stenner arguing that variables such as high verbal ability (indicative of high cognitive capacity) have a very substantial ameliorative effect in diminishing authoritarian tendencies.[1] Measured against other factors of personality, authoritarians generally score lower on openness to experience and slightly higher on conscientiousness.[24][25][26]

Altemeyer suggested that authoritarian politicians are more likely to be in the Conservative or Reform party in Canada, or the Republican Party in the United States. They generally have a conservative economic philosophy, are highly nationalistic, oppose abortion, support capital punishment, oppose gun control legislation, and do not value social equality.[15] The RWA scale reliably correlates with political party affiliation, reactions to Watergate, pro-capitalist attitudes, religious orthodoxy, and acceptance of covert governmental activities such as illegal wiretaps.[15] Although authoritarianism is correlated with conservative political ideology, not all authoritarians are conservative, and not all conservatives are authoritarian. It is also worth noting that many authoritarians have no interest in politics.[citation needed]

Authoritarians are generally more favorable to punishment and control than personal freedom and diversity. For example, they are more willing to suspend constitutional guarantees of liberty such as the Bill of Rights. They are more likely to advocate strict, punitive sentences for criminals,[27] and report that punishing such people is satisfying for them. They tend to be ethnocentric and prejudiced against racial and ethnic minorities[28] and homosexuals.[29] However, Stenner argues that authoritarians will support programs intended to increase opportunities for minority groups, such as affirmative action, if they believe such programs will lead to greater societal uniformity.[1]

In roleplaying situations, authoritarians tend to seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive instead of cooperative. In a study by Altemeyer, 68 authoritarians played a three-hour simulation of the Earth's future entitled the Global change game. Unlike a comparison game played by individuals with low RWA scores, which resulted in world peace and widespread international cooperation, the simulation by authoritarians became highly militarized and eventually entered the stage of nuclear war. By the end of the high RWA game, the entire population of the earth was declared dead.[15]

The vast majority of research on right-wing authoritarianism has been done in the United States and Canada. A recent (2003) cross-cultural study, however, examined the relation between authoritarianism and individualism-collectivism in samples from Bulgaria, Canada, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, Poland, and the U.S.A. (total N = 1,018). Both at the individual level and the societal level, authoritarianism was correlated with vertical individualism (or dominance seeking) and vertical or hierarchical collectivism, which is the tendency to submit to the demands of one's ingroup.[30] A study done on both Israeli and Palestinian students in Israel found that RWA scores of right-wing party supporters were significantly higher than those of left-wing party supporters, and scores of secular subjects were lowest.[31]

Right-wing authoritarianism has been found to correlate only slightly with Social Dominance Orientation (SDO). The two measures can be thought of as two sides of the same coin: RWA provides submissive followers, and SDO provides power-seeking leaders.[4]

Relationship to personality traits

Research comparing RWA with the Big Five personality traits has found that RWA is positively correlated with conscientiousness (r = 0.15) and negatively correlated with openness to experience (r = −0.36). SDO has a somewhat different pattern of correlations with the Big Five, as it is also associated with low openness to experience (r = −0.16), but is not significantly correlated with conscientiousness (r = −0.05), and instead has a negative correlation with agreeableness (r = −0.29). Low openness to experience and high conscientiousness have been found to be predictive of social conformity. People low in openness to experience tend to prefer clear, unambiguous moral rules and are more likely to support the existing social order insofar as it provides clear guidance about social norms for behavior and how the world should be. People low in openness to experience are also more sensitive to threats (both real and symbolic) to the social order and hence tend to view outgroups who deviate from traditional social norms and values as a threat to ingroup norms and values. Conscientiousness is associated with a preference for order, structure, and security, hence this might explain the connection with RWA.[24]

Criticism & Development

A recent refinement to this body of research was presented in Karen Stenner's 2005 book, The Authoritarian Dynamic.[32] Stenner argues that RWA is best understood as expressing a dynamic response to external threat, not a static disposition based only on the traits of submission, aggression, and conventionalism. Stenner is critical of Altemeyer's social learning interpretation and argues that it cannot account for how levels of authoritarianism fluctuate with social conditions. She argues that the RWA Scale can be viewed as a measure of expressed authoritarianism, but that other measures are needed to assess authoritarian predispositions which interact with threatening circumstances to produce the authoritarian response.

Recent criticism has also come as a result of treating RWA as uni-dimensional even in contexts where it makes no sense to do so. For example, RWA has been used in regression analyses with fundamentalism as another predictor, and attitudes to homosexuality and racism as the outcomes.[33] This research seemed to show that, for example, fundamentalism would be associated with reduced racism once the authoritarian component was removed, and this was summarized in a recent review of the field.[34] However, since the RWA scale has items that also measure fundamentalist religiosity, and attitudes to homosexuality, this undermines the interpretation of such analyses.[35][36] Even worse is the possibility that the unrecognised dimensionality in RWA can cause a statistical artifact to arise in such regressions, which can reduce or even reverse some of the relationships. Mavor and colleagues have argued that this artifact eliminates or even reverses any apparent tendency for fundamentalism to reduce racism once RWA is controlled. The implication is that in some domains such as the social psychology of religion it is not only preferable to think of RWA as consisting of at least two components, but essential in order to avoid statistical errors and incorrect conclusions.[36] Several options currently exist for scales that acknowledge at least the two main underlying components in the scale (aggression/submission and conventionalism).[10][12][13][36][37][38][39]

Altemeyer's research on authoritarianism has been challenged by psychologist John J. Ray, who questions the sampling methods used and the ability of the RWA Scale to predict authoritarian behavior and provides evidence that the RWA scale measures conservatism rather than "directiveness", a construct that John J. Ray invented and that he relates to authoritarianism.[40][41] Ray's approach is, however, a minority position among researchers [42] and other psychologists have found that both the RWA Scale and the original F-Scale are good predictors of both attitudes and behavior.[43]

In 2012, the American Journal of Political Science [44] published an article discussing the correlation between conservatism and psychotism, which they associated with authoritarianism, among other traits. In 2015, they released an erratum [45] showing that psychoticism is actually more associated with liberalism, whereas neuroticism is more associated with conservatism.

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GeminiKarat
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posted December 04, 2016 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GeminiKarat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting. There very last paragraph reminded me of a very simple test to find your political orientation.

Where is the horse heading?

Needless to say that I screwed the test and do not belong anywhere .

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LeeLoo2014
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posted December 04, 2016 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GeminiKarat:
Interesting. There very last paragraph reminded me of a very simple test to find your political orientation.

Where is the horse heading?

Needless to say that I screwed the test and do not belong anywhere .


GeminiKarat, a diamond as usually

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teasel
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posted December 04, 2016 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GeminiKarat:
Interesting. There very last paragraph reminded me of a very simple test to find your political orientation.

Where is the horse heading?

Needless to say that I screwed the test and do not belong anywhere .


I can see it as moving forward (and to the left), or trotting off into the distance. What does that say?

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GeminiKarat
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posted December 04, 2016 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GeminiKarat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Trotting away means a more pessimistic point of view.=conservative political direction
Trotting towards you means a more positive point of view.=liberal political direction
I saw both directions and that is a big NO on the political floor.

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jwhop
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posted December 04, 2016 09:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Progressives are not Liberals. Save your clap-trap for the tourists.

Progressives live by every word that ever spewed from the lower orifice of the 5th rate thinker from the 19th century, Karl Marx. They haven't had an original thought in their lives. The biggest screw-ups in human history. 175 years...and counting.

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Enneline
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posted December 04, 2016 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Enneline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
my little weird jwhop,

before you indulge yourself in political discussions or anything like that, go back to school or enroll yourself in some classes about basic politics & history.

Mixing up liberals, progressives, lefts, marxists, marxist messiahs, nazis and communists is not a proof for being predestined in taking part in political discussions.

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teasel
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posted December 04, 2016 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GeminiKarat:
Trotting away means a more pessimistic point of view.=conservative political direction
Trotting towards you means a more positive point of view.=liberal political direction
I saw both directions and that is a big [b]NO
on the political floor. [/B]

I guess I'm with you then! Wherever that is.

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Astro keen
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posted December 04, 2016 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Astro keen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Leeloo, that was quite an undertaking; very thorough piece of work. Although it may appear you words were pearls cast before a swine (or more).

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jwhop
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posted December 04, 2016 11:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hillary supporters need to be reminded of the old adage about putting lipstick on a pig.

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GeminiKarat
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posted December 05, 2016 03:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GeminiKarat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by teasel:
I guess I'm with you then! Wherever that is.

Good to see!

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GeminiKarat
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posted December 05, 2016 03:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GeminiKarat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Astro keen:
Leeloo, that was quite an undertaking; very thorough piece of work. Although it may appear you words were pearls cast before a swine (or more).

I will second that!

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GeminiKarat
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posted December 05, 2016 03:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GeminiKarat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jwhop:
Progressives are not Liberals. Save your clap-trap for the tourists.

Progressives live by every word that ever spewed from the lower orifice of the 5th rate thinker from the 19th century, Karl Marx. They haven't had an original thought in their lives. The biggest screw-ups in human history. 175 years...and counting.



Is there any chance that you share your words full of hate somewhere else?

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jwhop
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posted December 05, 2016 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there any hope you will concentrate your efforts on cleaning up the messes in your own country?

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LeeLoo2014
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posted December 05, 2016 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nope. The rest of the world overcome such mess 7 decades ago and we have no choice but to pass on the message, damn it.

But you know, it is also your duty as an adult to learn a little bit about the planet you live on, you can start with your country, which is one of the largest past/present/future immigration countries in the world. It's always recommended to read before you write.

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Tulipe
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posted December 05, 2016 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tulipe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jwhop:
Is there any hope you will concentrate your efforts on cleaning up the messes in your own country?

And leave you to your own messes ? That would be so unkind. We knowflakes strive not to be unkind.

And just because you ask, can I ask what country then ? We seem to live in a different plane than you. Why ? When we talk orange, you talk apple, when we ask you to describe said apple, you have to go and talk grapes, and lemon, and tomato, the rotten kind. So how can we leave you alone now when you've proven to be such a hopeless case ? Oh no, until you go read, and I mean really read, and think about this informative constructed list that Lee took the precious time to write with care, I shall have to keep a watchful eye on you.

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GeminiKarat
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posted December 06, 2016 05:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GeminiKarat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyway the list remains a good read.

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